• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. Muslims launch ad to fight 'fear-mongering'

Status
Not open for further replies.
Laila said:
Lack of education does play a role, as does religion.
But both alone do not cause terrorism. Politics tends to polarize people for a reason and is usually the trigger for someones conversion to the radical side.

I mean, who kills themselves by saying "Verse .... says you must kill this .... because God commands it"
Doesn't work nearly as well as "Those in US and UK are killing your brothers and sisters in .... raping or stealing oil, your sacrifice will be noted down. You will be a hero blah blah ..." something like that tends to be more effective.
Click to expand...

It can certainly be a trigger, but I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not really the "but-for" cause for most of this. Even without a particular political situation, many of the people who resort to terrorism would nevertheless be involved in some other way. But for oppression/poverty/religious extremism, that wouldn't usually be the case.


Ikari said:
It is most certainly a complex and coupled system. But I think a lot of contention comes from the fact that there are a few willing to blame the whole of it on religion and religion alone. It's not just a religious thing. Certainly it's an important element, especially given the theocratic tendencies of the area. Theocracies corrupt religion faster than anything else. I think what some people want to impress is that it's not just a religious thing, it's not just being Muslim which influences this. Places with the most oppression and least amount of access to a system to combat it are going to be more likely to engage in terrorism than other places. There's no simple formula, but that also means there is rarely only one root cause.
Click to expand...

This is all true, and I completely understand the desire to defend something from the sweeping generalizations of an angry group of people. I'm just pointing out that the existence of the political issues doesn't correlate to the incidence of terrorism at anywhere near the level that other factors do.
 
apdst said:
Two wrongs make a right?
Click to expand...

Nope, 911 was wrong, but let me say this a third time, since you are refusing to read it and debate it honestly - There are hundreds of 911 families who believe that putting the Islamic Cultural Center where it is is the right thing to do.
 
Most Muslim activists and Militants, are immoderately stupid, and it seems they just can't help themselves.

If these people would just say that they understand the feelings of the majority of Americans, that they can see the other point of view and will build it somewhere else, they would have that bridge of good will they claim they seek. But this they cannot do because, in actual fact, it is not part of their agenda..

It was said years ago, about Muslims in Europe, that if they shut up and don't get crazy, they will soon control Western Europe in a couple of generations just through their birth rates alone.. But this they were unable to do.

Soon they will push too far here, as they are doing with this multimillion dollar middle finger salute to America, and Americans will start fighting back.

We should just quietly say No, and let things return to some sort of normal. Going ahead with it while over 70% of Americans are against it is not a wise thing. If 70% of Americans are hateful bigots, as many Muslims claim, perhaps Muslims should congregate in Islamic run countries where they can enjoy personal freedoms away from any forms of bigotry whatsoever.
 
danarhea said:
Nope, 911 was wrong, but let me say this a third time, since you are refusing to read it and debate it honestly - There are hundreds of 911 families who believe that putting the Islamic Cultural Center where it is is the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

You have the Stats for that claim, Danarhea, or are you talking a Musllims word for it? What are the statistics?

And, lest you need reminding, people from all over the world were killed in that attack. Did you talk with all these families?
 
RightinNYC said:
It can certainly be a trigger, but I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not really the "but-for" cause for most of this. Even without a particular political situation, many of the people who resort to terrorism would nevertheless be involved in some other way. But for oppression/poverty/religious extremism, that wouldn't usually be the case.




This is all true, and I completely understand the desire to defend something from the sweeping generalizations of an angry group of people. I'm just pointing out that the existence of the political issues doesn't correlate to the incidence of terrorism at anywhere near the level that other factors do.
Click to expand...

In the case of Islamism, poverty does not play a role. It is all about religion, and why poverty is even mentioned seems odd.

You should spend some time on Islamic websites to read what they say about Americans, democracy, and their own religious ambitions and learn from them. Reading only what's in the American media will not advance your knowledge all that much. Get it from the strong horse's mouth.
 
Grant said:
In the case of Islamism, poverty does not play a role. It is all about religion, and why poverty is even mentioned seems odd.

You should spend some time on Islamic websites to read what they say about Americans, democracy, and their own religious ambitions and learn from them. Reading only what's in the American media will not advance your knowledge all that much. Get it from the strong horse's mouth.
Click to expand...

It's frequently argued that poverty plays a role, though the importance of its impact has been questioned. There's plenty of literature on this.

poverty terrorism - Google Scholar
 
RightinNYC said:
It's frequently argued that poverty plays a role, though the importance of its impact has been questioned. There's plenty of literature on this.

poverty terrorism - Google Scholar
Click to expand...

While it might be argued that poverty plays a role there is no evidence.

If you are an American you've probably heard of the Great Depression.. Was terrorism higher during that period? Were the crime rates higher than when Americans had more money? I don't think so.

Given that these individuals weren't all born psychotic, it's ignorance and brainwashing that has everything to do with it.

I've spent some time in quite poor countries and heard of no terrorism whatsoever.
 
Ikari said:
It's a bit more complicated than "They hate us for our freedoms". BTW, on an aside, I've notice that most people who repeat that mantra are also the ones who support gross government growth and interference even in our personal lives. But hypocrisy aside, no one is saying we can't defend ourselves. Nor that the terrorists should not reap negative consequences for their actions. What is being said, however, is that this is a complex situation and there are several factors. One of which has been the overall aggressive interventionist policies pursued by the West. In order to elicit proper change, we have to understand our actions and the consequences of those actions. If not, we are doomed to repeat the cycle. Ignorance is no excuse.
Click to expand...

But, at the end of the day, you place the blame for Islamic terrorism on everyone but the Islamic terrorists. No matter what semantics you use, that's what you end up saying.
 
apdst said:
You're right, they don't have to. However, their reluctance to do so doesn't do well for their credibility.
Click to expand...
Except your opinion, in the grand scheme of things means absolutely nothing aside from being ill-informed. Why would the Muslim world (or even one Muslim) care what you think?

You have a confirmation bias a mile wide, you dont actually CARE what anyone says. Nothing any of us say will change your mind.

Muslims have no room to cry, for getting a bad wrap, when they consistantly refuse to denounce the ideology that motivates Islamic terrorism.
Click to expand...
Again, are you deaf? I've repeated this I have NO IDEA how many times, Muslims are under no obligation to denounce perverted forms of their religion.
 
Last edited:
Hoplite said:
Except your opinion, in the grand scheme of things means absolutely nothing aside from being ill-informed. Why would the Muslim world (or even one Muslim) care what you think?

You have a confirmation bias a mile wide, you dont actually CARE what anyone says. Nothing any of us say will change your mind.

Again, are you deaf? I've repeated this I have NO IDEA how many times, Muslims are under no obligation to denounce perverted forms of their religion.
Click to expand...

Again with the PC retort? You hands gotta come up with some better than that. I've been hearing that crap since September 12th, 2001.

Again, are you deaf? I've repeated this I have NO IDEA how many times, Muslims are under no obligation to denounce perverted forms of their religion.
Click to expand...

But, white folks, especially southerners fall under a different standard? That's what I thought.
 
danarhea said:
Nope, 911 was wrong, but let me say this a third time, since you are refusing to read it and debate it honestly - There are hundreds of 911 families who believe that putting the Islamic Cultural Center where it is is the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

More power to'em. So what?
 
apdst said:
Again with the PC retort? You hands gotta come up with some better than that. I've been hearing that crap since September 12th, 2001.
Click to expand...
What's PC about pointing out that you have your mind made up and nothing any of us do, short of blunt force trauma, will change it?

I've made this point before, about Bush no less, that no one is under any obligation at all to answer or dispel the machinations of total idiots that happen to be thrown their way. Taking a refusal to deal with such moronic behavior as a sign of something OTHER than actually caring how one's time is spent falls under the category of confirmation bias; you hear what you want to hear, to hell with anyone who says different.

But, white folks, especially southerners fall under a different standard? That's what I thought.
Click to expand...
No, they dont.
 
Hoplite said:
What's PC about pointing out that you have your mind made up and nothing any of us do, short of blunt force trauma, will change it?

I've made this point before, about Bush no less, that no one is under any obligation at all to answer or dispel the machinations of total idiots that happen to be thrown their way. Taking a refusal to deal with such moronic behavior as a sign of something OTHER than actually caring how one's time is spent falls under the category of confirmation bias; you hear what you want to hear, to hell with anyone who says different.
Click to expand...




Laila proved my point. At no time did she denounce the ideology, or the motivations of the Islamic terrorists.


No, they dont.
Click to expand...


Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuul****!
 
Laila said:

But that doesn't mean I do not blame the killing of innocents on those who commit the act. They are responsible and each will be judged individually by Allah for their actions.

Clearly you must have missed it.
Click to expand...

Hmmm....
judged individually by Allah for their actions
Click to expand...

There have been Muslims who have denounced terrorist acts, they have all hedged their bets. Depending on WHO is being attacked, they say it is ok. That opinion is supported by, rather than refuted by their source documents, i.e. the Koran. A further difference is support among the populace. As long as Islamic terrorists limit their attacks to "INFIDELS", they have almost universal support and aid among your Islamic community. Only when they start hitting other Muslims (Sunni killing Sunni, Shi'a killing Shi'a) do they lose that community support.
 
apdst said:
Laila proved my point. At no time did she denounce the ideology, or the motivations of the Islamic terrorists.
Click to expand...
Laila is ONE PERSON. She cant possibly speak for every Muslim on the planet. And you are still trying to inject importance into something that isnt to support your own point of view.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? You have a confirmation bias.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuul****!
Click to expand...
I rest my case.
 
ric27 said:
Hmmm....

There have been Muslims who have denounced terrorist acts, they have all hedged their bets. Depending on WHO is being attacked, they say it is ok. That opinion is supported by, rather than refuted by their source documents, i.e. the Koran. A further difference is support among the populace. As long as Islamic terrorists limit their attacks to "INFIDELS", they have almost universal support and aid among your Islamic community. Only when they start hitting other Muslims (Sunni killing Sunni, Shi'a killing Shi'a) do they lose that community support.
Click to expand...

Muslims have been victims of terrorism more than "Infidels" and always will be. It is Muslims who are on the frontline of Islamic extremists.

And killing of innocents is forbidden. It is one of the few acts that Allah will not forgive a Muslim for doing.
 
Last edited:
apdst said:
Laila proved my point.
Click to expand...

:lamo @ trying to use me as a representative of 1.2billion people.

I speak only for myself. Not Muslims.
 
Laila said:
Muslims have been victims of terrorism more than "Infidels" and always will be. It is Muslims who are on the frontline of Islamic extremists.

And killing of innocents is forbidden. It is one of the few acts that Allah will not forgive a Muslim for doing.
Click to expand...

That's simply untrue. Muslims killing other Muslims, and infidels, is nothing new. It began with Mohammad, was and is encouraged by him, and continues today.

They'll murder their sons, sisters, brothers, daughters and wives, strangers, infidels, and anyone else who they feel might be obstructing their path to eternal righteousness.

I can see why those who are born into Islam and have little knowledge of the outside world might fall for this nonsense but it's always a bit of a shock to see otherwise rational people falling for this craziness.
 
Laila said:
:lamo @ trying to use me as a representative of 1.2billion people.

I speak only for myself. Not Muslims.
Click to expand...

Right. And a Nazi could equally say that they cannot speak for other Nazis, only for themselves. But in fact if you support Nazis, Fascists, Racists, or any of these type of groups, then you'll be identified with them. Otherwise they should be denounced.
 
Laila said:

But that doesn't mean I do not blame the killing of innocents on those who commit the act. They are responsible and each will be judged individually by Allah for their actions.

Clearly you must have missed it.
Click to expand...

But........Do you consider those killed as INNOCENTS or in your eyes are they guilty of something worth killing them for?
 
Right. And a Nazi could equally say that they cannot speak for other Nazis, only for themselves. But in fact if you support Nazis, Fascists, Racists, or any of these type of groups, then you'll be identified with them. Otherwise they should be denounced.
Click to expand...

Islam isn't comparable to Nazism; Nazism is a political ideology.
 
Laila said:
Muslims have been victims of terrorism more than "Infidels" and always will be. It is Muslims who are on the frontline of Islamic extremists.

And killing of innocents is forbidden. It is one of the few acts that Allah will not forgive a Muslim for doing.
Click to expand...

But who are the innocents?
 
Grant said:
You have the Stats for that claim, Danarhea, or are you talking a Musllims word for it? What are the statistics?

And, lest you need reminding, people from all over the world were killed in that attack. Did you talk with all these families?
Click to expand...

I already posted my link proving my claim in post number 91 in this thread, and have alluded to it three times since then. If you are too damn lazy to click the links, then maybe you should think a little before running your mouth, and inferring that someone is either a liar, or gets his information from other than where he says he got it from.

And no, I didn't talk to the families. I read their web site, you know, the one you were too lazy to click the link to.

Here is the link again. Next time, read the damn link before popping off, and making yourself look silly. Reading is fundamental.

911 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow

Finally, to understand the context of what I said, just so that you don't take anything out of context, read post 91 again, that is, if you even read it the first time.
 
Last edited:
Laila said:
Muslims have been victims of terrorism more than "Infidels" and always will be. It is Muslims who are on the frontline of Islamic extremists.

And killing of innocents is forbidden. It is one of the few acts that Allah will not forgive a Muslim for doing.
Click to expand...

Islam has done a singularly poor job of protesting Islamic terrorist acts. Isolated political or religious leaders will issue condemnations....condemnations done in English, followed by praise and exhortation in Arabic.

A minority *as you say* may be active terrorists and insurgents, but there sure seem to be large segments of the population who will march in rallies, carry signs calling for death to America and jihad over cartoons.

Your political correctness is overwhelming your ability to recognize, analyze and state facts. You've taken your position and are trying to make the facts fit it, rather than assembling the facts and letting them determine the conclusion.
 
Islam has done a singularly poor job of protesting Islamic terrorist acts.
Click to expand...

First, the vast majority of "Islamic terrorist acts" occur in countries where Muslims are either the primary or sole victims.

Second, this is sort of like me saying that you must be a supporter of Fascism as you, as a conservative, have not condemned it enough. It's downright silly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom