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Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

Marilyn Monroe said:
When it's suitable to throw around. Otherwise it's junk to many.
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This is just rhetoric. It's what you want to be true, but it is not true. When the constitution is relevant, as it is in this case, it is key. We are not going to ignore it just because you want us too.
 
Ockham said:
...Turn this around a minute and let's say Christian extremists crashed a fully loaded 747 into Mecca's Grand Mosque killing thousands...
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You are comparing a tower full of banking people to the holiest shrine in Islam.

This is why I asked if the WTC was sacred to Christ.

The attempt to turn the destruction of a money-changer tower into a war of religion, makes it look like money is the religion of the USA. Is it?
 
Redress said:
This is just rhetoric. It's what you want to be true, but it is not true. When the constitution is relevant, as it is in this case, it is key. We are not going to ignore it just because you want us too.
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Nobody wants it to be ignored. This isn't about their religion, it's about sensitivity. Come on, if they're human they know how people must feel about 9/11. Why jerk the chain? What's the point? Why must we be sensitive all the time.
 
hazlnut said:
Spoken like a true Tea Partier -- it's there when you need it, but when it's inconvenient, you wish it would go away.
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It's you who's making an issue of it. It's isn't about the Constitution and you know it.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
Blame game. He hates us. Say it aint so, but it be so, indeed.
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Show me where he said anything that many indicates hate.

You need to make a better effort at understanding history and context.

It's quite an ignorant thing to pick one statement out of a lifetime of work. Face it, you don't understand the Imam at all.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
It's you who's making an issue of it. It's isn't about the Constitution and you know it.
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I'm pretty sure when private citizens who own private property and want to exercise their rights... What else is there.

Values and principles aren't things we can discard for emotional reasons.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
Nobody wants it to be ignored. This isn't about their religion, it's about sensitivity. Come on, if they're human they know how people must feel about 9/11. Why jerk the chain? What's the point? Why must we be sensitive all the time.
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It's exactly about religion. It is because it is a religious building that there is this controversy. If it was just a community center, minus the mosque, no one would care. Since it is about religion, the first amendment in relevant, no matter how much you try and hide behind other claims.
 
Redress said:
Some of us find it quite valuable though.
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But you are arguing something no one is denying, their right to build the Mosque is not in dispute. I believe that is what they are referring to.
 
hazlnut said:
I'm pretty sure when private citizens who own private property and want to exercise their rights... What else is there.

Values and principles aren't things we can discard for emotional reasons.
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Well, if they're all about tolerance and building bridges, they should at least contemplate the idea of building somewhere else. This seems to be them saying, we've got the land, and we'll build here come hell or high water. Can anyone even imagine what some loonies may do if they do start building there.
 
Redress said:
It's exactly about religion. It is because it is a religious building that there is this controversy. If it was just a community center, minus the mosque, no one would care. Since it is about religion, the first amendment in relevant, no matter how much you try and hide behind other claims.
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We're not asking them not to build this religious building anywhere, ever, just not in that location for sentimental reasons. Most people get very huffy about property. I think this is about property rights. It's their property and they don't give a hill of beans about the survivors of 9/11 feelings.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
We're not asking them not to build this religious building anywhere, ever, just not in that location for sentimental reasons. Most people get very huffy about property. I think this is about property rights. It's their property and they don't give a hill of beans about the survivors of 9/11 feelings.
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Apparently the disregard for feelings goes both ways. It is not the Imam's fault that people are reacting so irrationally over this. Why should he change his plans because some people cannot see past their own stereotypes?
 
texmaster said:
But you are arguing something no one is denying, their right to build the Mosque is not in dispute. .
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Really? I can think of many examples that are not only affecting this proposal, but affecting the planned construction of mosques in many other states.
 
texmaster said:
But you are arguing something no one is denying, their right to build the Mosque is not in dispute. I believe that is what they are referring to.
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Which as someone stated before, makes the arguments meaningless. ;)
 
Qatzel Ok said:
You are comparing a tower full of banking people to the holiest shrine in Islam.

This is why I asked if the WTC was sacred to Christ.

The attempt to turn the destruction of a money-changer tower into a war of religion, makes it look like money is the religion of the USA. Is it?
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How is it that Islam wants to bring tolerance to New York yet will not allow tolerance in their Holiest place? Location is the issue, not a tower, and Christ has little to do with it other than what I've already explained. So how is it that tolerance is to be projected in NY but cannnot be in Mecca. There's your introduction into hypocrisy which may be well tolerated in Islam, but it's not elsewhere.

Tell you what - the Imam allows Christians and Jews access to this "Islamic Center" to pray and "bring people together" and actually follows through on it, I'll change my mind. Until then, intolerance complaining about other intolerance is hypocrisy. Which is why this isn't about religion, or freedoms or the Constitution --- Cordoba is right.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
But we aren't attacking them, we just don't want their mosque built so close to ground zero. The mosque is a reminder of Islam, and AlQaeda attacked us because of their disjointed application of Islamic law. It's too close for comfort. Plus we aren't quite sure of the Iman's motives.

Everybody gets it. We want them to be sensitive to our feelings because many NY'ers are still living with the pain daily. If they don't want to make this exception, then I'd say they really aren't with us as comrades.
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Actually, it's hard not to call opposing their center anything less than an attack. And it treats them as if they are Al Qaeda. remember, al Qaeda attacked us. Muslims as a whole did not.

As for the reasons Al Qaeda attacked us, you may want to investigate that further. Many who do bad things use a religuous undertone. Hitler blessed planes, for example. The Klan is heavily steeped in relgious rhetoric. But, their goals and actions are less religous then they are motivated by other goals. I suggest this is just as true with Al Qaeda. bad people speak religion, but seldom if ever actually represent the religion. So the enemy here is not the religion, but those like Al Qaeda who use the rhetoric for other purposes.

But at the end of the day, the flaw in the logic of those opposing the building is still that they see all Muslims as Al Qaeda, and that is no more accurate than seeing all Christians as the Klan, or as nazis, or any other group that has done evil in the world.
 
Boo Radley said:
Actually, it's hard not to call opposing their center anything less than an attack. And it treats them as if they are Al Qaeda. remember, al Qaeda attacked us. Muslims as a whole did not.

As for the reasons Al Qaeda attacked us, you may want to investigate that further. Many who do bad things use a religuous undertone. Hitler blessed planes, for example. The Klan is heavily steeped in relgious rhetoric. But, their goals and actions are less religous then they are motivated by other goals. I suggest this is just as true with Al Qaeda. bad people speak religion, but seldom if ever actually represent the religion. So the enemy here is not the religion, but those like Al Qaeda who use the rhetoric for other purposes.

But at the end of the day, the flaw in the logic of those opposing the building is still that they see all Muslims as Al Qaeda, and that is no more accurate than seeing all Christians as the Klan, or as nazis, or any other group that has done evil in the world.
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Islam is a religion of inequality. Men and women, not. Christians and Muslims, not. From my understanding if Muslims don't believe in Sharia Law they are not true Muslims, and yes there are variations, but I think in some areas of Islam it will be hard to find true moderates. It is what it is.

I don't see how they can truly assimilate in an egalitarian society such as ours.

Is this mosque going to teach how to cut your wife's nose off if she glances at another man? Is this mosque going to teach how to not accept Christians, or anyone they feel is inferior? But.....oh it's not our business. I know, 1st Amendment rights.

I think everyone needs to study Islam, and not just bits and pieces.

Showing pies with how many Muslims there are should make us be a tad bit wary.

Images of Sharia:

sharia - Google Search
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
Islam is a religion of inequality. Men and women, not. Christians and Muslims, not. From my understanding if Muslims don't believe in Sharia Law they are not true Muslims, and yes there are variations, but I think in some areas of Islam it will be hard to find true moderates. It is what it is.

I don't see how they can truly assimilate in an egalitarian society such as ours.

Is this mosque going to teach how to cut your wife's nose off if she glances at another man? Is this mosque going to teach how to not accept Christians, or anyone they feel is inferior? But.....oh it's not our business. I know, 1st Amendment rights.

I think everyone needs to study Islam, and not just bits and pieces.

Showing pies with how many Muslims there are should make us be a tad bit wary.

Images of Sharia:

sharia - Google Search
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And yet, many Muslims live quite peacefully here. My brother-in-law's partner (doctors) is muslim and he's as peaceful as they come and his family functions quite well here.

In any case, that has nothing to do with ground zero.




BTW, I have done some college course work on major religions, including islam. Just letting you know. ;)
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
I think everyone needs to study Islam, and not just bits and pieces.
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Take your own advice.

Go read the Qu'ran and hadiths and then come back and maybe your opinion on Islam will be worth something.
 
Redress said:
Apparently the disregard for feelings goes both ways.
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Absolutely true...

It is not the Imam's fault that people are reacting so irrationally over this.
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It's his [and those with him] fault they claim to be "bridge builders" at a site where a 'bridge' was blown to smithereens. No sensisivity whatsoever to at least 150 MILLION americans who don't want this. If they truly cared about all muslims joining together with other americans... they would open up a public dialogue, so everyone could better understand why this location is so important to them.

Why should he change his plans because some people cannot see past their own stereotypes?
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See above. According to your rational thought... the only clear thinking reasonable people are the iman and those like yourself. You fail to see the big picture.
 
Boo Radley said:
And yet, many Muslims live quite peacefully here. My brother-in-law's partner (doctors) is muslim and he's as peaceful as they come and his family functions quite well here.

In any case, that has nothing to do with ground zero.




BTW, I have done some college course work on major religions, including islam. Just letting you know. ;)
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You didn't address the inequality issue. Living peacefully is what you see and know.

I don't like the idea of mosques going up teaching brutality towards women.
 
Once more... Let them build their 13 story $100 million dollar shrine [by far the largest and most expensive US Mosque] Then the rest of american can fund and build a christian church next door... closer to GZ and triple the size and cost. Thats what this is about isn't it??? A few Muslims exercizing their rights by showing americans [and the rest of the world] their stength. :thumbdown:argue:fueltofir:usflag2:
 
Laila said:
Take your own advice.

Go read the Qu'ran and hadiths and then come back and maybe your opinion on Islam will be worth something.
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I think MO on Islam is pretty much right on target unfortunately. If you want to cut them slack when they treat women like dogs, fine, but don't expect me or others to do it.
 
Laila said:
Take your own advice.

Go read the Qu'ran and hadiths and then come back and maybe your opinion on Islam will be worth something.
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We have. Your suggestion is empty until you prove he hasn't read it.
 
Obamanator said:
Once more... Let them build their 13 story $100 million dollar shrine [by far the largest and most expensive US Mosque] Then the rest of american can fund and build a christian church next door... closer to GZ and triple the size and cost. Thats what this is about isn't it??? A few Muslims exercizing their rights by showing americans [and the rest of the world] their stength. :thumbdown:argue:fueltofir:usflag2:
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Exactly! They are putting us to the test. No matter what we do, it won't be right. I'm on the side that says waste as much of their time and money as possible.
 
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