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Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?

Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Phoenix said:
Anyone else see a 1st amendment problem with this?
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Now we're concerned for violating the 1st Amendment. Just so we're clear...

It's not okay for a state to "give public land" to a private entity in order to build a place of worship off of or away from hallowed ground in order to serve and protect the public trust.

But it's okay to deny the owners of this same place of worship their legal right to build said place of worship on private land that met all applicable city ordinance laws thereby affording them their 1st Amendment right to worship as they please?

That's brilliant!

If published reports are true, what I'm beginning to see taking place around this country amounts to the same level of fear and bigotry that was espoused to slaves before they were freed. This issue stopped being about sensativity for the victims of 9/11 and their families when mosques around the country were being denies their legal right to be built. Were will it end, people? Can't you see the larger picture here?

To deny these mosques to be built is to ignore one of our basis Constitutional freedoms - to worship as we please. In doing so, we're very likely to spark the very holy war we claim we we're trying to prevent.

You hate or mistrust Muslims of all types from all lands simply because of what a small few did on one tragic day, not what those who want to do the right thing say, not what they do. So, you deny them their right to worship by denying their legal right to build a place of worship, yet you'll approval the building of a Christian church, a Jewish synagoge, or Budist Temple. You're afraid of being hurt by the enemy from within (sleeper cells and home grown terrorist) and from without (terrorist coming to the U.S. on student or tourist VISAs). I understand your concerns, but folks that's why we have local, state and federal law enforcement to protect us from these people. Granted, they dropped the ball in the days, weeks and months leading up to 9/11, but have stepped up efforts since. When was the last successful terrorist attack on U.S. soil? Those who honestly believe they are stopping another terrorist attack from happening again by denying these mosques to be built are actually embolding the very enemy you're trying to keep at bay. It's a shame most of you refuse to see that! Frankly, I'm more afraid for our country's national security than I've ever been in the days after 9/11. These are freightening times because we as a nation are once again being consumed by our own prejudicies...and fear instead of placing our protective agencies at the forefront and allowing them to continue to do their due diligence on our behalf which is to protect and serve. But you don't throw this country into a police state, not over the protection of one of our basic human rights.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
Now we're concerned for violating the 1st Amendment. Just so we're clear...

It's not okay for a state to "give public land" to a private entity in order to build a place of worship off of or away from hallowed ground in order to serve and protect the public trust.

But it's okay to deny the owners of this same place of worship their legal right to build said place of worship on private land that met all applicable city ordinance laws thereby affording them their 1st Amendment right to worship as they please?

That's brilliant!

If published reports are true, what I'm beginning to see taking place around this country amounts to the same level of fear and bigotry that was espoused to slaves before they were freed. This issue stopped being about sensativity for the victims of 9/11 and their families mosques around the country were being denies their legal right to be built. Were will it end, people? Can't you see the larger picture here?

To deny these mosques to be built is to ignore one of our basis Constitutional freedoms - to worship as we please. In doing so, we're very likely to spark the very holy war we claim we we're trying to prevent.

You hate or mistrust Muslims of all types from all lands simply because you don't trust them, not what they say, not what they do. So, you deny them their right to worship by denying their legal right to build a place of worship, yet you'll approval the building of a Christian church, a Jewish synagoge, or Budist Temple. You're afraid of being hurt by the enemy from within (sleeper cells and home grown terrorist) and from without (terrorist coming to the U.S. on student or tourist VISAs). I understand your concerns, but folks that's why we have local, state and federal law enforcement to protect us from these people. Granted, they dropped the ball in the days, weeks and months leading up to 9/11, but have stepped up efforts since. When was the last successful terrorist attack on U.S. soil? Those who honestly believe their stopping this from happening again by denying these mosques to be built are actually embolding the very enemy you're trying to keep at bay. It's a shame most of you refuse to see that! Frankly, I'm more afraid for our country's national security than I've ever been in the days after 9/11. These are freightening times because we as a nation are once again being consumed by our own prejudicies...and fear instead of placing our protective agencies at the forefront and allowing them to continue to do their due diligence on our behalf which is to protect and serve. But you don't throw this country into a police state, not over the protection of one of our basic human rights.
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Brilliant ??

You managed to weave together a strawman and racism into the same post... congratulations !

First, I don't know of anyone that wants to "deny" the builders the right to build the mosque. The only criticism I hear is that the shouldn't build it there. It wouldn't hurt them to show Americans a little empathy rather than simply demanding it only for themselves. Every 9th grader knows that they have the "right" to build the mosque there. Every one else should also know that they "shouldn't" build it there out of respect for those that died on 9/11.

I won't even comment on the perceived racism you brought up because it's simply too bizarre.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Gill said:
Brilliant ??

You managed to weave together a strawman and racism into the same post... congratulations !

First, I don't know of anyone that wants to "deny" the builders the right to build the mosque. The only criticism I hear is that the shouldn't build it there. It wouldn't hurt them to show Americans a little empathy rather than simply demanding it only for themselves. Every 9th grader knows that they have the "right" to build the mosque there. Every one else should also know that they "shouldn't" build it there out of respect for those that died on 9/11.

I won't even comment on the perceived racism you brought up because it's simply too bizarre.
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But it's no straw man; the prejudice emposed here is real. Look at all the reports that are cropping up against American Muslims in this country, specifically, the number of mosque being denied construction? Is LA Ground Zero? Murfreeboro, TN? Any city in Alabama? Where does it end? You can't sit there and tell me this is only about the mosque near Ground Zero when mosques around this country are being denied the right to be built and the focus for their denial isn't because they didn't comply with some zoning law or failed to pay a permit fee. It's outright fear and hate! Read the reports that are coming in, concerns for enactment of Sharia Law. Does that have anything to do with building a mosque at Ground Zero or the concerns for the sensativity of the families of the victims of 9/11?

Wake up, people! This is starting to get way out of hand. It's not that I'm insensative about the 9/11 victims or their families. My heart goes out to them and I honor their memories and their sacrafic atleast once a year same as I'm sure many of you do if not more often. But we cannot allow our hate and fear to override our judgement. We must remain true to our Constitutional values even if it hurts.

Here's an article that speaks to how local, state and federal law enforcement helped deter Muslim extremism with the aid of the very Iman who wants to build this mosque.

Linked article: 'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Helped FBI With Counterterrorism Efforts.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
But it's no straw man
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Then kindly point out the posts in question who have actually advanced such arguments.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
But it's no straw man; the prejudice emposed here is real. Look at all the reports that are cropping up against American Muslims in this country, specifically, the number of mosque being denied construction? Is LA Ground Zero? Murfreeboro, TN? Any city in Alabama? Where does it end? You can't sit there and tell me this is only about the mosque near Ground Zero when mosques around this country are being denied the right to be built and the focus for their denial isn't because they didn't comply with some zoning law or failed to pay a permit fee. It's outright fear and hate! Read the reports that are coming in, concerns for enactment of Sharia Law. Does that have anything to do with building a mosque at Ground Zero or the concerns for the sensativity of the families of the victims of 9/11?

Wake up, people! This is starting to get way out of hand. It's not that I'm insensative about the 9/11 victims or their families. My heart goes out to them and I honor their memories and their sacrafic atleast once a year same as I'm sure many of you do if not more often. But we cannot allow our hate and fear to override our judgement. We must remain true to our Constitutional values even if it hurts.
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Then you must also believe that those fighting the construction of synagogues, Christian churches, LDS churches, etc. are also bigots ???

Who is claiming that we shouldn't be true to the Constitution ??
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Gill said:
Then you must also believe that those fighting the construction of synagogues, Christian churches, LDS churches, etc. are also bigots ???

Who is claiming that we shouldn't be true to the Constitution ??
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Gil, the problem is that sooo many in America today believe because they "can" do something, they are entitled to be able to do so regardless of the consequences and if anyone objects they are denying the person/entity their rights.

You are correct, in this case they "can" legally build this Mosque. If the Gov't were to deny them this right it would be wrong. However for all of you people screaming about the "Rights of the Muslims" what about OUR right to point out the obvious flaws of this idea? That it's pissing on 911 in the eyes of many? That it smacks of "Mosque of Conquest". That the builders are unwilling to compromise, thus undermining their claimed goal of Tolerance.

Mosque Developer Rejects Meeting With Paterson | NBC New York
The developers of an Islamic cultural center that would include a mosque near Ground Zero have rejected Gov. David Paterson's offer to help them find a different site.
Paterson said today the group is apparently committed to building in the proposed site. "I think they would like to stay where they are, and I certainly respect that and I certainly respect them," Paterson said.
But, Paterson said the dialogue would have been useful as the project has ignited nationwide debate over freedom of religion and anger over the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.. "Having said that, how much more foresighted would it have been if the Imam who is the developer of the project had been willing to hear what we are actually talking about?"
The planned $100 million center would be built two blocks from the World Trade Center site, where nearly 2,800 people died when Islamic extremists flew jets into the twin towers. The project is headed by Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, a Muslim cleric who has worked to improve relations between Islam and the West.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Gill said:
Then you must also believe that those fighting the construction of synagogues, Christian churches, LDS churches, etc. are also bigots ???
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If they are doing so for any reason other than adhering to applicable local, state or federal law, then perhaps they are. I'd have to know the circumstances underwhich they are being denied, i.e., is the construction of a church at Site A being denied because because it's being built next to a public school? Would its construction interfer with ground water tables? Did they rightfully acquire the property? Was it discovered that the funding came from the mob?

There are many legitimate reasons to deny the construction of a building. However, to deny same out of fear or because our feelings are hurt is wrong.

As to what those who oppose the mosque's construction are saying, all you have to do is read the 1,000 page thread detailing this very issue to know exactly where people's reservations are coming from. Some are out of concern for the 9/11 victims and their families, but others (and I dare say most) have little to nothing to do with that. It's fear!!!
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

I just read on DRUDGE (via Reuters) that right-wing, anti-Semitic "Imam" Feisil Abdul Rauf has *rejected* Gov. Patterson's suggestion they MOVE the GZ Mosque away from hallowed ground. The Imam, who is currently in the Middle East raising money (illegally) for the right-wing, homophobic, anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist mosque stated that he will NOT meet with Gov. Patterson.

Once more ... liberal-progressives support the building of a temple of hate, bigotry, racism and homophobia and 72% of Americans reject it.

Mr. Obama, a liberal-progressive whose hatred of caucasions, Jews and our nation knows no bounds, is in favor of a center of Hate in lower Manhattan.

And I also read that Ms. Pelosi wishes to lauch *investigations* into those who reject the Hate Mosque.

Memo to liberal-progressives: STOP supporting bigotry, hatred, racism and homophobia.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

MrVicchio said:
Gil, the problem is that sooo many in America today believe because they "can" do something, they are entitled to be able to do so regardless of the consequences and if anyone objects they are denying the person/entity their rights.

You are correct, in this case they "can" legally build this Mosque. If the Gov't were to deny them this right it would be wrong. However for all of you people screaming about the "Rights of the Muslims" what about OUR right to point out the obvious flaws of this idea? That it's pissing on 911 in the eyes of many? That it smacks of "Mosque of Conquest". That the builders are unwilling to compromise, thus undermining their claimed goal of Tolerance.

Mosque Developer Rejects Meeting With Paterson | NBC New York
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All the more reason why I've said from the very beginning including in this thread that you watch them. You watch them like a hawk! And if local law enforcement w/the aid of federal agencies, i.e., the FBI, determine that there is shady activity taking place there you arrest those involved and/or shut the place down if you have to. It's what a nation of laws does!!!
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
All the more reason why I've said from the very beginning including in this thread that you watch them. You watch them like a hawk! And if local law enforcement w/the aid of federal agencies, i.e., the FBI, determine that there is shady activity taking place there you arrest those involved and/or shut the place down if you have to. It's what a nation of laws does!!!
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You think this about active terrorist activity at the center? :blink:

This is a symbolic victory for Islam. It WILL act as a Terrorist Recruiting tool. "Look, those stupid infidels are weak, and we built a Mosque right there at the site of our great victory! How can you fear such people?" WHETHER OR NOT THE MOSQUE BUILDERS BELIEVE SUCH. It's called a side effect.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

GayLibertarian said:



Memo to liberal-progressives: STOP supporting bigotry, hatred, racism and homophobia.
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You mean you don't want us to vote for Republicans? We're already one step ahead of you!
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

MrVicchio said:
You think this about active terrorist activity at the center? :blink:

This is a symbolic victory for Islam. It WILL act as a Terrorist Recruiting tool. "Look, those stupid infidels are weak, and we built a Mosque right there at the site of our great victory! How can you fear such people?" WHETHER OR NOT THE MOSQUE BUILDERS BELIEVE SUCH. It's called a side effect.
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Your commentary speaks to the exact issue I'm concerned about. What about the opposite affect?

"They denied the right to build a mosque under their own laws, under their own system of democracy, in the face of their own Constitution. They are as we've said they are, a bunch of hypocrites who can't even follow their own system of democracy but they expect us to abid by it. Stand up in revolt against these infidels!"

Can you see where this could be leading? Can you see how this emboddings them much more than if we allow the mosque to be built? Let law enforcement do their due diligence. I'd rather catch them doing wrong and throw that back at them than to deny them while following the laws in our land yet make them stonger and more daring from within and abroad.

"Keep your friends close and your enemy closer."

If it turns out that this mosque near Ground Zero is doing wrong, law enforcement will root it out. Besides, it's suppose to also be a community center, right? Well, do you honestly think they'd get away with their underhanded deeds for very long if New Yorkers and American shoppers as coming and going on a daily basis yet helping to also keep a watchful eye? As long as we (law enforcement) don't get complacient, we should be able to keep them honest. They win only if we let them.
 
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You mean you don't want us to vote for Republicans? We're already one step ahead of you!

Liberal-progressives are usually on the wrong side of issues.

Your side is for the bigoted, hateful, HOMOPHOBIC anti-Jewish HATE MOSQUE led by an anti-Semitic, bigoted, homophobic "Imam" who is currently raising money for his Hate Temple in Saudi Arabia from Wahhabist sources, who recently told Reuters and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) that " ... the mosque in New York represents our victory, Imam Bin Laden's victory, the victory of A'llah and the Qu'ran against Zionism."

Fully knowing that the Hate Mosque will house a homophobic, anti-gay, bigoted, "Islamic ex-gay ministry" ... you still suppport it.

Many liberal-progressives have themselves, become the hate-filled, racist, homophobic bigots they claim Republicans are.

Sharia Law = death to homosexuals.

President Obama = supports Sharia Law.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
Your commentary speaks to the exact issue I'm concerned about. What about the opposite affect?

"They denied the right to build a mosque under their own laws, under their own system of democracy, in the face of their own Constitution. They are as we've said they are, a bunch of hypocrites who can't even follow their own system of democracy but they expect us to abid by it. Stand up in revolt against these infidels!"

Can you see where this could be leading? Can you see how this emboddings them much more than if we allow the mosque to be built? Let law enforcement do their due diligence. I'd rather catch them doing wrong and throw that back at them than to deny them while following the laws in our land yet make them stonger and more daring from within and abroad.

"Keep your friends close and your enemy closer."
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If we told them "NO" outright then I could see your point.
 
In case you didn't know GayLib, if it weren't for liberals, slavery would still exist in the United States, women wouldn't still be allowed to vote, the civil rights movement would have never happened and gays wouldn't be able to marry in 5 U.S. states and soon to be six (CA). Do you think it was conservatives who were behind all of those movements? HA! The history of the conservative movements in this country have always had one agenda, to keep White, Christian, heterosexual Males at the top of the American hierarchy and to discriminate against everyone else.

You sir, need to learn a little more about politics.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Barbbtx said:
If we told them "NO" outright then I could see your point.
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Exactly! That's why you tell them "YES" because they've followed our laws and until proven otherwise are upholding to the value of one of our basic 1st Amendment rights. Until proven otherwise, you have to let this mosque be built for the greater good. It really doesn't serve our national security interest nor preserve our character abroad by conducting ourselves this way. There's a much bigger issue at stake here than just how we feel concerning the 9/11 victims and their families. Again, I feel for them. God knows I do, but I can see the larger issue here.

We lose ourselves if we deny them the very basic rights under the law we expect for ourselves. This isn't a Liberal thing. It's not a Republican thing. It's an American democracy thing!! To lose sight of that means we may as well stop trying to show the world we are the example for spreading same around the world.

Open your eyes, people. Lay aside your hate. Be watchful. Be mindful. Be vigilent. But don't be afraid.

This article illustrates exactly what I'm talking about when I say it's not just about the 9/11 victims and their families anymore. Notice the sign the lady is holding and where the protest is being held.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
Exactly! That's why you tell them "YES" because they've followed our laws and until proven otherwise are upholding to the value of one of our basic 1st Amendment rights. Until proven otherwise, you have to let this mosque be built for the greater good. It really doesn't serve our national security interest nor preserve our character abroad by conducting ourselves this way. There's a much bigger issue at stake here than just how we feel concerning the 9/11 victims and their families. Again, I feel for them. God knows I do, but I can see the larger issue here.

We lose ourselves if we deny them the very basic rights under the law we expect for ourselves. This isn't a Liberal thing. It's not a Republican thing. It's an American democracy thing!! To lose sight of that means we may as well stop trying to show the world we are the example for spreading same around the world.

Open your eyes, people. Lay aside your hate. Be watchful. Be mindful. Be vigilent. But don't be afraid.
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I have the Constitutional Right to stand outside your home, on the public sidewalk and call you every name in the book, protest your very existence night and day......... would that be right? Would you defend my right to do that? Would you encourage me?
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Crunch said:
I have the Constitutional Right to stand outside your home, on the public sidewalk and call you every name in the book, protest your very existence night and day......... would that be right? Would you defend my right to do that? Would you encourage me?
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Muslims who had nothing to do with 9/11 and condemn those acts and want to build a mosque = Standing in front of someones house night and day and slandering them

Wow.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Crunch said:
I have the Constitutional Right to stand outside your home, on the public sidewalk and call you every name in the book, protest your very existence night and day......... would that be right? Would you defend my right to do that? Would you encourage me?
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Sure if I've done something that violated your local, state or Constitutional rights or threaten same, i.e., I own a pit-bull and it has mulled a child. I have a fenced in yard, but the dog keeps finding ways to get out and hurt members of the general public. Do I protect my right to own this or any dog or do I give in to the angry mod? Would repairing my fense and find ways to make it more secure satisfy you or would you only be satisfied if I got rid of the dog? What if I never owned another dog again? Better yet, what if I moved out of the neighborhood? What would satisfy you? How far does it go?

These are the same types of issues we as a nation must begin to deal with. Otherwise, they win because they've broken down our resolve to adhere to the very priciples we expect everyone else around the world to embrace. Would moving this mosque at Ground Zero satisfy you? Clearly for some it would not. Look at the proposition NY Gov. Patterson presented. Apparently, for some moving the mosque on state land (whether the state donated it or sold it to them) wouldn't have mattered. Have far away is far enough away? What land can they build on to embrace the general public? Where exactly can they go to worship in peace while also welcoming the community?
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Objective Voice said:
Sure if I've done something that violated your local, state or Constitutional rights or threatens same, i.e., I own a pit-bull and it has mulled a child. I have a fenced in yard, but the dog keeps finding ways to get out and hurt members of the general public. Do I protect my right to own this or any dog or do I give in to the angry mod? Would repairing my fense and find ways to make it more secure satisfy you or would you only be satisfied if I got rid of the dog? What if I never owned another dog again? Better yet, what if I moved out of the neighborhood? What would satisfy you? How far does it go?
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Nothing you can do will satisfy me except leave..... will you defend my right to be there? Encourage me?
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Johnny DooWop said:
Muslims who had nothing to do with 9/11 and condemn those acts and want to build a mosque = Standing in front of someones house night and day and slandering them

Wow.
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Mind your own business.... I'm asking OV.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Crunch said:
Nothing you can do will satisfy me except leave..... will you defend my right to be there? Encourage me?
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Those on this forum who oppose the mosque try to play a game of semantics. "They have the right, but that doesn't mean they should do it." Having the right to do something one wants to do means they should do it, because if they really shouldn't be doing it, then they shouldn't have the right to do it. Saying someone shouldn't do it, means that deep down inside you really believe they shouldn't have the right to do so, but you just don't want to say it.
 
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