• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

It's Friday afternoon, so my brain can't handle numbers at the moment, but I would like to take this opportunity to bitch about ethanol and how big a scam it is.

If we used ALL our corn crops for fuel, and none for food, it would still displace only a small percentage of our gasoline use...
Ethanol from crop and landscape waste products is the only way that it makes sense. Don't waste corn on cars. I like my chili cheese frito corn chips too much....
 
Speaking of Europe. Countries like England, France, Germany and Italy have much higher fuel prices than us right? Have they been driven to make progress on alternate sources of energy and new energy technology any more that us?

I do not know much about their policies. I do know that France gets most of it's electricity from nuclear power.
 
That would be about the dumbest thing we could possibly do on very many levels. If/when "green" energy becomes economically feasable, it will happen, and it will happen bigger and better than any artificial government project could ever do. Charging punitive taxes on the lifeblood of this economy would be totally counter-productive, too. And implementing this on an economy that is in the toilet would just make everything worse.

Whoever thinks this is a good idea should consult a psychiatrist.

We have been talking about this problem for more than 30 years. There is never a convienient time to fix this problem. America passes along hundreds of billions annually because this has not been fixed.

A reason why the free market has a hard time coming up with an answer is that the oil cartel can fix the price. So if/ when we start working on alternatives, they could increase supply lower costs and make the projects uneconomic. Who would invest billions on finding a solution and building capacity faced with this?

The type of thinking above which is heard from a majority of Americans assures we will never fix one of the greatest structural problems we have.

People who think like that should probably take a basic logic course.
 
That would be about the dumbest thing we could possibly do on very many levels. If/when "green" energy becomes economically feasable, it will happen, and it will happen bigger and better than any artificial government project could ever do. Charging punitive taxes on the lifeblood of this economy would be totally counter-productive, too. And implementing this on an economy that is in the toilet would just make everything worse.

Whoever thinks this is a good idea should consult a psychiatrist.

Specifically what is dumb? Taxing a negative externality (pollution), protecting infant industries, or is it subsidizing energy alternative products to make them more cost competitive and to encourage growth in this industry?

1zlb2hz.jpg


Something to keep in mind.
 
Specifically what is dumb? Taxing a negative externality (pollution), protecting infant industries, or is it subsidizing energy alternative products to make them more cost competitive and to encourage growth in this industry?

1zlb2hz.jpg


Something to keep in mind.

It's dumb because we are not one big hive society ... if alternative energy cannot make money for individuals it won't fly, no matter the subsidizing or other progressive nonsensical and artificial means to force it.
 
When did I ever say we shouldn't look? In fact, implicit in what I did say is that we SHOULD look.

What I object to is all the flowery hooplah about technology which simply doesn't exist and no one really knows if it CAN exist -- especially when someone is so arrogant as to pin down an exact number of jobs it will create.

And on top of that, to start trying to kill oil before we even know we can get there at all is stupid beyond measure.
We need to get serious about our independence from foreign oil. We need to open up ANWR and other places. Big job creater and the money would not be going to our enemies. We need to get serious about nuclear, proven to work and clean. If that would happen I wouldn't be against throwing money at solar or other alternatives.
 
I don't think anyone wants to 'kill' oil, indeed, that simply is not possible yet. But oil will steadily become more difficult to access, and therefore more expensive. We need to have developed alternatives that will be economical before the price of oil increases significantly.
Oil is so difficult to access because Obama/special interest groups are making it more and more difficult to access.
 
I looked into solar panels a while back just to see if I could get off the grid. I came to the same conclusion. As much solar paneling as I'd have to buy to make a dent in my (low) electricity bill, it would take a ridiculously long time to break even. They're gonna have to make huge strides in solar technology before it makes any economic sense.

I admit I know almost nothing about solar panels. Do they last forever?
 
Before anyone gets on the wrong track here, we have 2 energy issues to deal with. They need to be kept apart in debates.

One is electricity, the other is oil (diesel and gasoline).

There are LOTS of ways to generate electricity at reasonable cost, there is only one way to make oil.

The cleanest electricity is nuclear, which is ideally suited for base load. The dirtiest is coal, but it also is ideally suited for base load.
Base load plants are designed to run 24/7.
The next cleanest for electricity is natural gas, which is ideally suited for peaking power plants (combined cycle gas turbine) that are turned on/off as needed.
Those 2 working together could displace coal plants but read this....
Coal Power Industry: Biggest US Expansion In 2 Decades, Emissions Equivalent To Putting 22 Million Cars On The Road

Dozens of new coal plants are being built? I guess they are betting that cap and trade will never pass..
As for wind and solar, they are not alternatives, they are supplements.
They are too intermittent to be called any thing else.

When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...
 
When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...

Is there much being done by way of turning waste such as garbage, trash, used cooking oil, or fecal matter from people and animals into fuel? Stuff like that... you know using things that cause problems for the environment and turning it into fuel?
 
Is there much being done by way of turning waste such as garbage, trash, used cooking oil, or fecal matter from people and animals into fuel? Stuff like that... you know using things that cause problems for the environment and turning it into fuel?

Sure, for local use. Some poultry, pig, beef farms use methane digesters to run generators. Landfills make plenty of methane, and larger ones have generators on site. On a small scale, villages in India use methane digesters to turn their human and animal waste into methane which is then piped to their homes for cooking purposes...
 
Before anyone gets on the wrong track here, we have 2 energy issues to deal with. They need to be kept apart in debates.

One is electricity, the other is oil (diesel and gasoline).

There are LOTS of ways to generate electricity at reasonable cost, there is only one way to make oil.

The cleanest electricity is nuclear, which is ideally suited for base load. The dirtiest is coal, but it also is ideally suited for base load.
Base load plants are designed to run 24/7.
The next cleanest for electricity is natural gas, which is ideally suited for peaking power plants (combined cycle gas turbine) that are turned on/off as needed.
Those 2 working together could displace coal plants but read this....
Coal Power Industry: Biggest US Expansion In 2 Decades, Emissions Equivalent To Putting 22 Million Cars On The Road

Dozens of new coal plants are being built? I guess they are betting that cap and trade will never pass..
As for wind and solar, they are not alternatives, they are supplements.
They are too intermittent to be called any thing else.

When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...

Very good point that oil is the hardest to solve. Boone Pickens ( I know he has interests in nat gas) has talked about retrofitting trucks to run on nat gas versus oil. Also as we restore urban centers that lowers the need to commute. We can also put more effort into helping get shale oil off the ground.

The oil business knows that without incentives no one will spend the billions needed to build any of this out as they cold turn around and make oil 20 per barrel and kill those investments. This trick has kept us addicted to oil for all these years.
 
Very good point that oil is the hardest to solve. Boone Pickens ( I know he has interests in nat gas) has talked about retrofitting trucks to run on nat gas versus oil. Also as we restore urban centers that lowers the need to commute. We can also put more effort into helping get shale oil off the ground.

The oil business knows that without incentives no one will spend the billions needed to build any of this out as they cold turn around and make oil 20 per barrel and kill those investments. This trick has kept us addicted to oil for all these years.
Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is a good fuel for vehicles, and does burn cleaner than gasoline or diesel. It would have to be used where the infrastructure is already in place. Any area that has it for heating homes can add pump stations, and you can even have a compressor at your home.
Where there are no natural gas pipelines, you would think that propane would be a good choice, but it is more dangerous. Propane is heavier than air, natural gas is lighter than air. So the gas leak heads up away from the car, propane settles along the ground, where it might find a spark or flame to ignite it. And propane has to be manufactured, CNG just needs to be transported. There was a time when gas was just burned off at the well. There was no good way to collect and transport it...
 
It's dumb because we are not one big hive society ... if alternative energy cannot make money for individuals it won't fly, no matter the subsidizing or other progressive nonsensical and artificial means to force it.

Good point, so the question to answer is:

Can renewable energies make money for individuals?

Lets look at ethanol for example. For that I will refer to the paper Goldenboy219 cited. Ethanol produced in Brazil is cost competitive with oil. Brazil has comparative advantage when producing ethanol. So, to continue the growth of the US ethanol industry we have created a system that subsidizes ethanol ($.51) and places a tariff on ethanol to prevent this subsidy from leaving the country and to protect US industry. Without the subsidy or tariff, ethanol would still be cost competitive only it would be made in Brazil.
 
It's dumb because we are not one big hive society ... if alternative energy cannot make money for individuals it won't fly, no matter the subsidizing or other progressive nonsensical and artificial means to force it.

So nuclear power is stupid too? You do realize the huge amount of government support that industry gets no?
 
We need to get serious about our independence from foreign oil. We need to open up ANWR and other places. Big job creater and the money would not be going to our enemies.

Not going to work. First, your assumption is that oil won't be priced on international markets. It's the biggest reason why pro-ANWR arguments in a security sense make absolutely no sense. Every barrel of oil that comes out of the ground in the ANWR ten years from now will be priced on the market, further ensuring that large producers, like OPEC and Russia will take most of the profits from the price increases. Second, the rise in global demand and the small amount of US supply will not bring prices down. And staying on oil heavily ensures that the largest consumer of oil, the US keeps propping prices of oil up ensuring large cash flows to countries like Iran.

No, the real way to get energy security is either nationalization of oil, or getting off oil as a primary liquid fuel. Removing a huge portion of US demand for oil will see oil prices drop considerably and the cash flows funding Iran as well. Furthermore, making large strides in alternative and then exporting it to the developing world ensures that they will not replace us in global oil demand effectively ending any substantial growth for oil. Without oil exports, Iran is screwed.

We need to get serious about nuclear, proven to work and clean. If that would happen I wouldn't be against throwing money at solar or other alternatives.

The problem with nuclear is it requires $2 billion in tax payer guaranteed loans and large amounts of subsidies per kilowatt. I don't have a problem with that, but people need to recognize that nuclear power cannot function without government assistance.
 
Not going to work. First, your assumption is that oil won't be priced on international markets. It's the biggest reason why pro-ANWR arguments in a security sense make absolutely no sense. Every barrel of oil that comes out of the ground in the ANWR ten years from now will be priced on the market, further ensuring that large producers, like OPEC and Russia will take most of the profits from the price increases. Second, the rise in global demand and the small amount of US supply will not bring prices down. And staying on oil heavily ensures that the largest consumer of oil, the US keeps propping prices of oil up ensuring large cash flows to countries like Iran.

No, the real way to get energy security is either nationalization of oil, or getting off oil as a primary liquid fuel. Removing a huge portion of US demand for oil will see oil prices drop considerably and the cash flows funding Iran as well. Furthermore, making large strides in alternative and then exporting it to the developing world ensures that they will not replace us in global oil demand effectively ending any substantial growth for oil. Without oil exports, Iran is screwed.

Oil in the US is already nationalized. Didn't you notice when Obama arbitrarily ordered all drilling in the Gulf of Mexico halted for no reason whatsoever? Didn't you notice when Obama made his speech praising himself for closing more areas to oil exploration while explaining that he's increasing exploration areas?

The problem with nuclear is it requires $2 billion in tax payer guaranteed loans and large amounts of subsidies per kilowatt. I don't have a problem with that, but people need to recognize that nuclear power cannot function without government assistance.

So, what you're saying is that it's okay for the government to waste hundreds of billions on subsidies for bogus electic cars from Government Motors, to subsidize job killing unproductive forays into sunshine power, to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, and then give out guarantees to people who simply don't have the resources to buy a house, but you balk at a loan guarantee to a company providing a necessary product to a captive market with predictable loan amortization schedules and defined costs?

Well, I'm against all that useless stuff, not just loans to an industry that could help make the US independent of terrorists in the Middle East, Russia, and South America.
 
Oil in the US is already nationalized.

Only if you define nationalized as you see fit with no regard to its actual definition. But once we do that, the English Language has no use.

Didn't you notice when Obama arbitrarily ordered all drilling in the Gulf of Mexico halted for no reason whatsoever?

Apparently the largest oil spill in the US is "no reason." Furthermore, closing access to one portion of US held waters is not nationalization.

US oil would be nationalized if we had a Venezuela/Mexico system. Which we do not.

Didn't you notice when Obama made his speech praising himself for closing more areas to oil exploration while explaining that he's increasing exploration areas?

And that proves the actual definition of nationalized HOW?

So, what you're saying is that it's okay for the government to waste hundreds of billions on subsidies for bogus electic cars from Government Motors

Bogus? You have this really awful tendency to define words however you see fit with absolutely no regard for their real definitions. The Volt gets 40 miles on its charge without the downsize of many full fledged electric cars. Hardly "bogus."

to subsidize job killing unproductive forays into sunshine power

So subsidizing an industry so that it hires more people kills jobs? By more growth we kill more jobs! lol.

Well, I'm against all that useless stuff, not just loans to an industry that could help make the US independent of terrorists in the Middle East, Russia, and South America.

At least you're consistent.
 
Only if you define nationalized as you see fit with no regard to its actual definition. But once we do that, the English Language has no use.
Something is nationalized when the national goverment can give arbitrary orders without respect to law regarding the function and operation of a particular company or industry. Another name for this is fascism.

Apparently the largest oil spill in the US is "no reason." Furthermore, closing access to one portion of US held waters is not nationalization.

Exactly. The oil spill caused by the failure of one government agency to ensure that one drilling rig was obeying the law was not sufficient reason to shut down the businesses of other companies which have not been proven to be GUILTY of operating outside the law, and in fact, since those operations had not demonstrated any sudden urge to erupt in black gold, the practical assumption would have been to review their operating processes while permitting their operations to continue.

However, we have an inexperienced child running the show in Washington. A child who not only has no experience in command, who's got no experience running a business, but he doesn't even have any experience ever doing any thing useful in his whole life, ever. But, he did see an opportunity to throw tens of thousands of Americans out of work and by the same act vastly increase the dependency of the US on foreign oil. So Obama took that opportunity to do as much damage as he could when it was fresh.

Unless you're willing to argue that the president in the White House is the most incompetent boob ever, with absolutely no respect for the laws this nation was built on, then you can't deny the alternative, that the damaging moratorium was spiteful and deliberate.

US oil would be nationalized if we had a Venezuela/Mexico system. Which we do not.

So you're trying to argue that there's only one shade of red?

That it?

And that proves the actual definition of nationalized HOW?

He has the personal authority to control who drills where and who looks where for what.

Since the Left's goal in nationalizing the American oil industry is nothing more or less than the closing of it, the President's exercise of power to increasing restrict drilling sites is all they need or want to do at this time.

Bogus? You have this really awful tendency to define words however you see fit with absolutely no regard for their real definitions. The Volt gets 40 miles on its charge without the downsize of many full fledged electric cars. Hardly "bogus."

No, it's a bogus car because it's technology was obsolete the day the stupid thing was revealed on the market. Outside of the rubber wheels and motor-thingy, it's no different in concept than the million candle-power spot light I have plugged into the wall for later use when I want to signal the crew on the space station or blind airline pilots, even though what I really use it for is to signal other boats that my sail boat is HERE, just in case they don't see all the other lights in the rigging.

But, it's got a battery, it's got a charger, it turns AC into DC, it runs down, and one of these days I'll have to replace the whole spotlight because it won't be economical to replace the battery.

JUST LIKE THE VOLT.

But....I just spent a couple hundred bucks replacing the alternator in my van, and the EGR valve and the distributor, and the coil, and other thingies our President couldn't figure out what to do with, and my gas hog bus is good for it's next hundred thousand miles. It's battery replacement cost is about a hundred bucks, too.

So subsidizing an industry so that it hires more people kills jobs? By more growth we kill more jobs! lol.

Yes.

Learn economics someday. Money doesn't grow on trees. It has to be stolen from someone else first before one useless company can be subsidized over another.
 
Not going to work. First, your assumption is that oil won't be priced on international markets. It's the biggest reason why pro-ANWR arguments in a security sense make absolutely no sense. Every barrel of oil that comes out of the ground in the ANWR ten years from now will be priced on the market, further ensuring that large producers, like OPEC and Russia will take most of the profits from the price increases. Second, the rise in global demand and the small amount of US supply will not bring prices down. And staying on oil heavily ensures that the largest consumer of oil, the US keeps propping prices of oil up ensuring large cash flows to countries like Iran.

No, the real way to get energy security is either nationalization of oil, or getting off oil as a primary liquid fuel. Removing a huge portion of US demand for oil will see oil prices drop considerably and the cash flows funding Iran as well. Furthermore, making large strides in alternative and then exporting it to the developing world ensures that they will not replace us in global oil demand effectively ending any substantial growth for oil. Without oil exports, Iran is screwed.



The problem with nuclear is it requires $2 billion in tax payer guaranteed loans and large amounts of subsidies per kilowatt. I don't have a problem with that, but people need to recognize that nuclear power cannot function without government assistance.

Barbbtx made no mention of PRICE. If we have to pay more to stop getting oil from our enemies, it will be worth the price.
And Nuclear in the USA is not subsidized, no more than is coal or gas.
Loan guarantees are not loans. Even if the billions were direct loans from the govt, they have to be paid back....
 
If we used ALL our corn crops for fuel, and none for food, it would still displace only a small percentage of our gasoline use...
Ethanol from crop and landscape waste products is the only way that it makes sense. Don't waste corn on cars. I like my chili cheese frito corn chips too much....

The paper addresses global ethanol production, of which US corn subsidies and import barriers keep the price high, while keeping corn based ethanol production feasible. Easing these barriers will bring the global price of ethanol down, while reducing domestic corn production required in the process.
 
Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is a good fuel for vehicles, and does burn cleaner than gasoline or diesel. It would have to be used where the infrastructure is already in place. Any area that has it for heating homes can add pump stations, and you can even have a compressor at your home.
Where there are no natural gas pipelines, you would think that propane would be a good choice, but it is more dangerous. Propane is heavier than air, natural gas is lighter than air. So the gas leak heads up away from the car, propane settles along the ground, where it might find a spark or flame to ignite it. And propane has to be manufactured, CNG just needs to be transported. There was a time when gas was just burned off at the well. There was no good way to collect and transport it...

During the 70's and 80's some people would retrofit a propane fuel tank in their trucks. I have seen a decent number of those actually. Propane costs too much money now, so nobody does it anymore.
 
Last edited:
Barbbtx made no mention of PRICE. If we have to pay more to stop getting oil from our enemies, it will be worth the price.
And Nuclear in the USA is not subsidized, no more than is coal or gas.
Loan guarantees are not loans. Even if the billions were direct loans from the govt, they have to be paid back....

Nuclear is the most highly subsidized form of electicity production behind refined coal. It gets more in subsidies than all renewable energies combined for electricity production, it gets more than coal (not refined), more than nat gas, more than anything else but refined coal. Of course things like refined coal, wind and solar are much more dependent upon their subsidies, Nuclear is still much more dependent upon subsidies than the other forms of energy like coal, nat gas, hydroelectric, biomass, geothermal, etc though.

By far the largest subisidy for non-electrical energy goes towards ethanol. Its primary focus is to lower our dependency on (foreign) oil and to encourage growth in the US ethanol industry.

I should add that nuclear energy will literally do nothing to reduce our demand for foriegn oil.
 
Last edited:
Nuclear is the most highly subsidized form of electicity production behind refined coal. It gets more in subsidies than all renewable energies combined for electricity production, it gets more than coal (not refined), more than nat gas, more than anything else but refined coal. Of course things like refined coal, wind and solar are much more dependent upon their subsidies, Nuclear is still much more dependent upon subsidies than the other forms of energy like coal, nat gas, hydroelectric, biomass, geothermal, etc though.

By far the largest subisidy for non-electrical energy goes towards ethanol. Its primary focus is to lower our dependency on (foreign) oil and to encourage growth in the US ethanol industry.

I should add that nuclear energy will literally do nothing to reduce our demand for foriegn oil.

Your last statement, I agree with 100%.
The rest of your post....read the following...
Energy Report - Government Financial Subsidies
 
Back
Top Bottom