President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

German guy said:

So according to a new poll, 68% of Americans oppose this mosque. Apparently, two thirds of all Americans hold an entire religion and all their followers hostage for the deeds of a few terrorists.

Anybody who ever wondered how something like the Holocaust could happen, or believed that it could only happen in Germany, or that it could never again happen today, should take a look at these poll numbers and take a deep breath before answering.

Until then, let's read again the Protocols of the Elders of Islam.

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I think it would be nice if the backers of this mosque chose a different site.
I don't hold all Islam responsible for the deeds of a few terrorists.
I'm not planning on firebombing any mosques.

I suspect that the bulk of people who "oppose" the mosque would agree with me on all three counts.

German guy said:

So according to a new poll, 68% of Americans oppose this mosque. Apparently, two thirds of all Americans hold an entire religion and all their followers hostage for the deeds of a few terrorists.

Anybody who ever wondered how something like the Holocaust could happen, or believed that it could only happen in Germany, or that it could never again happen today, should take a look at these poll numbers and take a deep breath before answering.

Until then, let's read again the Protocols of the Elders of Islam.

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I'd say that opposing a Mosque and gassing millions of people are quite a ways away from each other. To try and equate the two in any way is beyond absurd.

German guy said:

So according to a new poll, 68% of Americans oppose this mosque. Apparently, two thirds of all Americans hold an entire religion and all their followers hostage for the deeds of a few terrorists.

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That's one hell of a leap. What exactly was the question that was asked?

I oppose the building of the mosque on that site, but I value the rights protected by our First Amendment much more than I oppose the mosque.

As I see it, there are 68% of Americans who can't make a difference between terrorist criminal monsters and the religion of Islam. There is no point in debating that: Either you think the entire religion has to be held responsible for 9/11, or you have no problem with a mosque there. There is no grey area.

And don't attack a strawman. Nowhere did I equate gassing millions of people with opposition to building a mosque.

But the xenophobic, bigoted climate against an entire religion is definitely comparable. You could easily get the anti Muslim croud for whom "Islam = terrorism" to support a "final solution of the Muslim question", there is not the slightest doubt about it. Just read what these people write on forums like this one. Not even mentioning what you could hear on American streets in the first few months and years after 9/11.

j-mac said:

I guess only when liberal feelings are at stake, but never when the families of the murdered 9/11 victims come into play....

Nice.


j-mac

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I would say it shouldn't be the standard for either. The law shoudl be the standard, but let's be honest, we're talking about feelings versus logic. Should emotion rule the day? Or should law and facts rule? It's really an important quewstion.

BTW, I think it is quite possible families are bieng misrepresented by your side on this. I'm sure some may well FEEL anything you claim, but others are not so moved. Logically, it makes little sense for them to have any feelings on this as these people are not the people who perpetrated the attack. It would be like blaming Christians for the Klan. Not logical.

German guy said:

As I see it, there are 68% of Americans who can't make a difference between terrorist criminal monsters and the religion of Islam. There is no point in debating that: Either you think the entire religion has to be held responsible for 9/11, or you have no problem with a mosque there. There is no grey area.

And don't attack a strawman. Nowhere did I equate gassing millions of people with opposition to building a mosque.

But the xenophobic, bigoted climate against an entire religion is definitely comparable. You could easily get the anti Muslim croud for whom "Islam = terrorism" to support a "final solution of the Muslim question", there is not the slightest doubt about it. Just read what these people write on forums like this one. Not even mentioning what you could hear on American streets in the first few months and years after 9/11.

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Well, I feel we've made tremendous advancements socially since WWII and the Japanese internment camps. I think, for the most part, you are overreacting. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world. These anti-Muslim people have quite a battle ahead of them if they seriously think they are going to rid the Earth of that religion. The odds aren't exactly in their favor.

German guy said:

As I see it, there are 68% of Americans who can't make a difference between terrorist criminal monsters and the religion of Islam. There is no point in debating that: Either you think the entire religion has to be held responsible for 9/11, or you have no problem with a mosque there. There is no grey area.

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You see it wrong, then. Several of us showed where one can be against the placement of this mosque, yet not against Islam.

If you can't understand that, it really serves no purpose in carrying on a dialogue with you.

Boo Radley said:

Logically, it makes little sense for them to have any feelings on this as these people are not the people who perpetrated the attack. It would be like blaming Christians for the Klan. Not logical.

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Timothy McVeigh was a white Christian. Yet there are no 68% claiming that means all white Christians are terrorists, or supporting the obviously ridiculous claim that building a Christian church there would be tasteless. Guess why that is? Bonus points for anybody who can point to rampant xenophobia and stereotyping hatred.

Harshaw said:

Actually, Harry Reid just came out against the mosque, too.

The Plum Line - Breaking: Reid calls for mosque to be built "someplace else"

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That is to be expected, since Harry Reid is a douche bag.

Dr_Patrick said:

Well, I feel we've made tremendous advancements socially since WWII and the Japanese internment camps. I think, for the most part, you are overreacting. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world. These anti-Muslim people have quite a battle ahead of them if they seriously think they are going to rid the Earth of that religion. The odds aren't exactly in their favor.

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You are right, I don't think another Holocaust is near, this time one against Muslims. But that's not because the people are anymore tolerant or wise today than they were back then in Germany, or because people have learnt from history. These polls make this more than obvious.

German guy said:

So according to a new poll, 68% of Americans oppose this mosque. Apparently, two thirds of all Americans hold an entire religion and all their followers hostage for the deeds of a few terrorists.

Anybody who ever wondered how something like the Holocaust could happen, or believed that it could only happen in Germany, or that it could never again happen today, should take a look at these poll numbers and take a deep breath before answering.

Until then, let's read again the Protocols of the Elders of Islam.

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False dichotomy, red herring, hasty generalization, reductio ad-Hitlerum, argumentum ad misericordiam, and a straw man all in one short paragraph. Congragulations you make logic cry.

Coronado said:

You see it wrong, then. Several of us showed where one can be against the placement of this mosque, yet not against Islam.

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Maybe you can explain it to me then. As I understood it, the Muslim group attempting to build it is not a radical one, and not supportive of islamist terrorism. So this hardly is a reason. Of course you can be against building any kind of religious buildings alltogether, based on the idea that religion is horrible in general. But I assume you have a different argument?

German guy said:

You are right, I don't think another Holocaust is near, this time one against Muslims. But that's not because the people are anymore tolerant or wise today than they were back then in Germany, or because people have learnt from history. These polls make this more than obvious.

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Well, again I think that opposing a Mosque being built near ground zero is miles away from people advocating something like that. People are selfish and don't understand that by celebrating the rights that the 1st amendment affords them means that others that they may not agree with are protected too.

Agent Ferris said:

False dichotomy, hasty generalization, reductio ad-Hitlerum, argumentum ad misericordiam, and a straw man all in one short paragraph. Congragulations you make logic cry.

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It's interesting that you of all people would claim that logic is on the side of xenophobia and bigoted hatred. But then, not really surprising, considering this comes from you.

German guy said:

Maybe you can explain it to me then. As I understood it, the Muslim group attempting to build it is not a radical one, and not supportive of islamist terrorism. So this hardly is a reason. Of course you can be against building any kind of religious buildings alltogether, based on the idea that religion is horrible in general. But I assume you have a different argument?

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I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.

Dr_Patrick said:

Well, again I think that opposing a Mosque being built near ground zero is miles away from people advocating something like that. People are selfish and don't understand that by celebrating the rights that the 1st amendment affords them means that others that they may not agree with are protected too.

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The problem I see, though, is that the step from bigotry and stereotyping and according "mild" discrimination to outright murder is very, very small. People who are ready to protest against a Mosque based on nothing but a stereotyping, hateful image of Islam are only a tiny step away from lynch murder or even Holocaust, in case someone abuses this movement and directs it into the "right" channels.

If there is one thing to learn from history, it's that.

Coronado said:

I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.

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Oh come on. That was just a low hit. Not cool, Coronado.

This has nothing to do with Nazi's or the holocaust, dont even dare compare the two. This is to do with Muslims having the right to build what they want and where they want. To believe otherwise is having a complete disregard for human rights and the fundamental beliefs of the founding fathers which have forumulated the very Western Democracy we all swear fealty to today.

Coronado said:

I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.

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I agree with your Bundeswehr example. But I fail to see the analogy to a mosque near ground zero. Many Muslims died in the Twin Towers on 9/11 too, and Islam itself has nothing to do with al-Qaida in general. It would be like saying that building a Christian church near a former death camp would be tasteless, because most Nazi butcherers were members of Christian churches. The connection is so vague it simply doesn't make sense.

kaya'08 said:

Oh come on. That was just a low hit. Not cool, Coronado.

This has nothing to do with Nazi's or the holocaust, dont even dare compare the two. This is to do with Muslims having the right to build what they want and where they want. To believe otherwise is having a complete disregard for human rights and the fundamental beliefs of the founding fathers which have forumulated the very Western Democracy we all swear fealty to today.

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You'll note I did not say anything about the Nazis. I chose my words carefully. I don't believe all members of the Bundeswehr were Nazis or subscribed to Nazi ideals (Erwin Rommel comes to mind) any more than I believe that all Muslims are terrorists or sympathizers.

German guy said:

As I see it, there are 68% of Americans who can't make a difference between terrorist criminal monsters and the religion of Islam. There is no point in debating that: Either you think the entire religion has to be held responsible for 9/11, or you have no problem with a mosque there. There is no grey area.

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Understood, now let's build a German Cultural center next to Aushwitz. Or an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica. If you think that would be completely inappropriate, offensive, and in bad taste then you must be a bigot in line with the Nazi's ready to goosestep people into the ovens. :roll:

Furthermore; this is not some kumbaya singing little group, the head of this group blames the U.S. for 9-11, says OBL was made in the USA, wants a Sharia compliant US, and refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.

The clear intent of this Mosque is one of incitement, those claiming otherwise stating that it is really an attempt to reach out to the community are laughable. If that were the case and this was really an attempt to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims why didn't they set aside space for a synagogue and a church along with the mosque in this "cultural center"? Why did they decide to build a mosque rather than a memorial dedicated to the victims of 9-11? The latter would have actually engendered feelings of goodwill from American people towards Muslims; whereas, this mosque is causing nothing but resentment which ofcourse is its true motivation in the first place IE to give the proverbial **** you to the American people and to do a little victory jig on the site of their most successful attack.

But the xenophobic, bigoted climate against an entire religion is definitely comparable.

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Bull****ing ****, you can not control your ethnicity you can control your ideology. The fact of the matter is that the only accepted view held within all five sects of mainstream Islam is that apostasy, adultery, homosexuality and/or premarital sex is that the penalties for these non-crimes are capital and/or corporal punishment.

German guy said:

I agree with your Bundeswehr example. But I fail to see the analogy to a mosque near ground zero. Many Muslims died in the Twin Towers on 9/11 too, and Islam itself has nothing to do with al-Qaida in general. It would be like saying that building a Christian church near a former death camp would be tasteless, because most Nazi butcherers were members of Christian churches. The connection is so vague it simply doesn't make sense.

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It's not a perfect example, I'll admit. I'll have to think about some other way to put it.

Rest assured though that my opposition to the location of the mosque doesn't come from or cause me to want to cause harm to the average Muslim. Far from it.

I think the problem here is very much a definite misunderstanding in polls and numbers. Of those who say they dont want the mosque there, how many are willing to agree to banning them from doing it? I am sure it is some, but will that drop the numbers down a bit? I think it is in poor taste..I think it is a bit uncaring, and very insensitive to put the mosque there. HOWEVER, as the old saying goes "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."
I do have a few questions though.
. Had the bombers been fundamentalist crazy radical Christians, would we have an issue with a big church there? Had they been Irish radicals, would we close down every Irish pub in a 1 mile radius and cancel the St. Patrick's day parade? Just how far can we go with this?
This mosque is 2 blocks away from ground zero, and cannot even be seen from there. Just how far away is far enough? 3 blocks? 4 blocks? 2 miles? 2000 miles? Where do we draw the line?

German guy said:

It's interesting that you of all people would claim that logic is on the side of xenophobia and bigoted hatred. But then, not really surprising, considering this comes from you.

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Straw man again.

Agent Ferris said:

Understood, now let's build a German Cultural center next to Aushwitz. Or an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica. If you think that would be completely inappropriate, offensive, and in bad taste then you must be a bigot in line with the Nazi's ready to goosestep people into the ovens. :roll:

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Very different situations.

And yes, people who believe "Islam = terrorism" like you have eqloquently demonstrated, are indeed "in line with the Nazis ready to goosestep people into the ovens". You may all disagree, but I indeed believe that once you have embraced this stereotyping hatred and bigotry, 90% of the way into the ovens has been taken already. It was not different in Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

Furthermore; this is not some kumbaya singing little group, the head of this group blames the U.S. for 9-11, says OBL was made in the USA, wants a Sharia compliant US, and refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.

The clear intent of this Mosque is one of incitement, those claiming otherwise stating that it is really an attempt to reach out to the community are laughable. If that were the case and this was really an attempt to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims why didn't they set aside space for a synagogue and a church? Why did they decide to build a Mosque rather than a memorial dedicated to the victims of 9-11? The latter would have actually engendered feelings of goodwill from non-Muslims towards Muslims; whereas, this Mosque is causing nothing but resentment which ofcourse is its true motivation in the first place IE to give the proverbial **** you to the American people and to do a little victory jig on the site of their most successful attack.

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Oh yeah, now the conspiracy theories. Of course, if you are afraid of Muslims in general, alltogether and alike, you could see it this way, of course ...

Bull****ing ****, you can not control your ethnicity you can control your ideology. The fact of the matter is that the only accepted view held within all five sects of mainstream Islam is that apostasy, adultery, homosexuality and/or premarital sex is that the penalties for these non-crimes are capital and/or corporal punishment.

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Yeah, among the people who call themselves Muslims, there are quite a few backward idiots (maybe even more than among Christians). But only the fewest of them support terrorism. And you always got quite a few Muslims who don't take their religion very seriously. You should talk with Muslims once.

German guy said:

I agree with your Bundeswehr example. But I fail to see the analogy to a mosque near ground zero. Many Muslims died in the Twin Towers on 9/11 too, and Islam itself has nothing to do with al-Qaida in general.

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Then let's build a German Cultural center at Aushwitz as many Germans died there as well. If this was about reaching out and memorializing the victims of 9-11 then why build a Mosque? Why not do something which would actually engender goodwill (like I don't know something crazy like a...) memorial to the victims of 9-11? :roll:

It would be like saying that building a Christian church near a former death camp would be tasteless, because most Nazi butcherers were members of Christian churches. The connection is so vague it simply doesn't make sense.

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Actually a Convent of nuns formally located on the grounds of Aushwitz were ordered out by the Catholic church. And yes building Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica would be completely inappropriate.