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President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

You totally missed that one...:rofl

No, I didn't. I got that he was busy being an ass. I just chose to respond as though he were not.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Let's get back to the scintillating topic of a proposed building that would be located two blocks away from ground zero.
 
For me, what I "see" from the current Administration based on President Obama's agenda is a President who is brave enough and bold enough to tackle many of the issues that have been so widely ignored by prior Administrations that affect so many of us.

i appreciate your thoughtfulness and maturity

but, with all due respect, you really need to be talking to 50% of ny dems, not me

after all, they're the ones who matter, since, y'know, the entire stated purpose of this project is to improve relations with em

and they see the president's position on this very differently

bottom line: this attempt to improve relations on the part of mr rauf and president putz is BACKFIRING

it's not SUCCEEDING

SUCCESS is a very important ingredient in the makeup of effective leadership, you see

obama's obtuse
 
Really quickly, since this is way off topic, but the Baptist church threw my mother out, publicly, and referenced doing so, and her being damned to hell, in front of my sister and I(aged 7 and 5). I have personal reasons for disliking the baptist church, and freely admit it is not an entirely rational emotion. This is also off the point I was trying to make.

Could you answer the question about the points you tried to equate between Islam and Christianity? This is the third time I've asked you to explain yourself. I fail to see the connection between your claim concerning Islam, the mosque and Christianity.
 
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Could you answer the question about the points you tried to equate between Islam and Christianity? This is the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.

Oh hey, let me help. See, when people ignore your question over and over? They have no intention of answering it. You asking a question does not perforce entitle you to an answer. HTH.
 
Oh hey, let me help. See, when people ignore your question over and over? They have no intention of answering it. You asking a question does not perforce entitle you to an answer. HTH.

Since you don't speak for Redress your response only reflects your own intentions.
 
Since you don't speak for Redress your response only reflects your own intentions.

Some things are just common knowledge. Which apparently you lack? Sorry.
 
I get that Obama is backing away from a perceived notion that he's weighing in on a local matter which is, to say the least, inflammatory and will do him or Democrats zero good politically. That he feels the compunction to say anything is... ill advised and naive. He should avoid this subject like the black plague. What the hell is he thinking - he needs to shut his pie hole and continue blaming Bush for something.
 
No ****, you can still defend the Constitutions while condemning the actions being taken which are protected by the Constitution. For example I don't have to support the Nazi Party to support their right to public protest. You can actively condemn the Nazi party while still supporting the Constitution, the two things are not mutually exclusive.

That's ****ing bull****, that mother ****ing POS islamist wants a sharia compliant U.S., said that the U.S. was partially responsible for 9-11, said that OBL was made in the USA, and refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.

I'm going to take a risk and make a statement I know is going to paint me in a bad light, but...

In a way, American policy may have led to 9/11. It goes back to our nation's foreign policy where the U.S. supported fostering Arab/Isreal relations but held a very negative/narrow view of Muslim extremism. I'm sure history will show that we had reason to be so suspecious, but by being the leading in fostering an attitute that over time has left Muslims nations out of world political affairs, we've inadvertantly created this world view that Muslim ideology is evil when in reality only those nations that take an extreme, radical view of Islam have proven themselves to be wrong. Radical Islam fought back, i.e., 9/11, but honorable Islam even here in our country condemned their actions.

Again, filter out the white-noise and review the historical content then reach your own conclusion on the matter.
 
Explain yourself Redress.

the very high percentage of muslims who accept and extol terrorism and violence as a means to accomplish political goals

Where is the evidence that supports this is true with a high percentage of Christians?

IRA, Abortion clinic bombers, Hutaree.

the very high percentage of Christians who seek to subjugate the world under Christianity

Again, your evidence please.

Remember the crusades?

the unwillingness of Christians to separate the religious elements of it from the practice of the political

Evidence please

The Raw Story | Huckabee: Amend Constitution to be in 'God's standards'

the unwillingness of Christians to modernize or reform islam so as to suppress the violent components of their texts from being applied in modern times

Evidence please

Replace Islam with Catholic, and violent with child molesting.

the consistent intolerance and oppression of non-Christian minorities inside Christian -majority nations, while demanding their "rights" while living in non-Christian majority nations

Again, evidence please.

This story kinda shows that.


You cannot simply substitute Christianity for Islam and pretend you don't have to explain why. Please do so.

I figured it was pretty obvious.
 
I'm going to take a risk and make a statement I know is going to paint me in a bad light, but...

In a way, American policy may have led to 9/11. It goes back to our nation's foreign policy where the U.S. supported fostering Arab/Isreal relations but held a very negative/narrow view of Muslim extremism. I'm sure history will show that we had reason to be so suspecious, but by being the leading in fostering an attitute that over time has left Muslims nations out of world political affairs, we've inadvertantly created this world view that Muslim ideology is evil when in reality only those nations that take an extreme, radical view of Islam have proven themselves to be wrong. Radical Islam fought back, i.e., 9/11, but honorable Islam even here in our country condemned their actions.

Again, filter out the white-noise and review the historical content then reach your own conclusion on the matter.

I conclude your view point is very apologetic to Islam and is a borderline "excuse". Were life to be lived where bad actions can be blamed as an inadvertant act netting bad results... the following would be true:

- It's America's policy on legalized guns that inadvertantly cause thousands of murders in this country
- It's America's policy on "freedom of religion" that caused thousands of young boys and girls to be molested in Catholic Churches over decades.
- It's Amerca's policy on banning trade and contact with Cuba, that has caused that country's economy to suffer and many of their people to live in poverty.

Using your view of things, everything can be blamed on everything - therefore, no group or individual is ever at fault or responsible and everyone can play "victim". :shrug:
 
I'm going to take a risk and make a statement I know is going to paint me in a bad light, but...

In a way, American policy may have led to 9/11. It goes back to our nation's foreign policy where the U.S. supported fostering Arab/Isreal relations but held a very negative/narrow view of Muslim extremism. I'm sure history will show that we had reason to be so suspecious, but by being the leading in fostering an attitute that over time has left Muslims nations out of world political affairs, we've inadvertantly created this world view that Muslim ideology is evil when in reality only those nations that take an extreme, radical view of Islam have proven themselves to be wrong. Radical Islam fought back, i.e., 9/11, but honorable Islam even here in our country condemned their actions.

Again, filter out the white-noise and review the historical content then reach your own conclusion on the matter.

The Muslims didn't have any excuse to attack us. Our foreign policy was in our best interest. That's the same as saying that it's our fault that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
 
***CORRECTION to my post #399***

I've always been a firm believer that in order to discern what the truth really is, one must seek knowledge for himself. With so much information being thrown at us each and every day from so many sources, the only way to filter out the political "white-noise", IMO, is to take a step back and collect information from as many non-partician sources as possible and apply that knowledge based within its historical content.

Discovered my error after re-reading it moments ago. I don't want anyone to mischaracterize what I meant.
 
I'm going to take a risk and make a statement I know is going to paint me in a bad light, but...

In a way, American policy may have led to 9/11.

We invented Islam? Learn something knew everyday.

It goes back to our nation's foreign policy where the U.S. supported fostering Arab/Isreal relations

U.S. support of Israel is responsible for 9-11? So I take it U.S. support for Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia would be casus belli for a Jewish terrorist attack on the U.S.?

but held a very negative/narrow view of Muslim extremism.

So we were supposed to hold a positive view of Muslim extremism? :roll:

I'm sure history will show that we had reason to be so suspecious, but by being the leading in fostering an attitute that over time has left Muslims nations out of world political affairs,

Which Muslim nations exactly? Which Muslim nations has the U.S. barred from world political affairs? Last time I checked even Iran has a seat at the UN.

we've inadvertantly created this world view that Muslim ideology is evil when in reality only those nations that take an extreme, radical view of Islam have proven themselves to be wrong.

You mean the mainstream Islam wherein the only accepted view is that the penalities for apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, and/or premarital sex is corporal and/or capital punishment, that honorable Islam?

Radical Islam fought back, i.e., 9/11,

Fought back against what exactly?

but honorable Islam even here in our country condemned their actions.

You mean the mainstream Islam wherein the only accepted view is that the penalities for apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, and/or premarital sex is corporal and/or capital punishment, that honorable Islam?

Again, filter out the white-noise and review the historical content then reach your own conclusion on the matter.
 
I get that Obama is backing away from a perceived notion that he's weighing in on a local matter which is, to say the least, inflammatory and will do him or Democrats zero good politically. That he feels the compunction to say anything is... ill advised and naive. He should avoid this subject like the black plague. What the hell is he thinking - he needs to shut his pie hole and continue blaming Bush for something.

I disagree. The President IS the face of our nation in every respect. As such, he has a responsibility, if not a duty, to defend our nation's values whenever and wherever those values are being sorely misrepresented. You folks have to remember the world is watching. CORRECTION: The Muslim world is watching. And while many here in the U.S. will view this as the President appeasing radical Islam, the truth is he is upholding America's values and the constitutionality of this Mosque being built. To do otherwise is hypocritical, a reversal of basic human rights (freedom of religion) and subversion of the very Constitution we all hold so dear. It's a shame that so many of you don't see that but instead would rather inject politics into this matter at ever turn.

Sad...very sad.

Agent,

Please read my post again only this time don't try so hard to disect it because in this case you come away with the wrong conclusion and espouse the wrong view.

Of course America didn't invent Islam. Don't be absord! It is a religon that's been around for thousands of years. You're being very ridiculous here.

I didn't say that our support of Arab/Isreal in and of itslef led to 9/11. I said maybe...maybe some of our foreign policies that led the way for exclusion of Muslim nations from the world stage but fostered inclusion of Arab/Isreal may have led to Muslim extremism that eventually led to 9/11. I also said that history may prove our position to have been correct.

Let me ask you these questions:

When exactly did Iran become a member of the U.N.?

How many other Muslim nations are also part of this world organization?

Why are they excluded?

What nation primarily has led the way for their exclusion?

Why are they set apart from participating in shaping world policies?

Again, I'm not saying that their exclusion was not justified. I am saying, however, that doing so may have led to the growth of Muslim extremism over the years and how radical Muslim extremist saw fit to project their anger at the U.S. on that faithful day.
 
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I disagree. The President IS the face of our nation in every respect. As such, he has a responsibility, if not a duty, to defend our nation's values whenever and wherever those values are being sorely misrepresented. You folks have to remember the world is watching. CORRECTION: The Muslim world is watching. And while many here in the U.S. will view this as the President appeasing radical Islam, the truth is he is upholding America's values and the constitutionality of this Mosque being built. To do otherwise is hypocritical, a reversal of basic human rights (freedom of religion) and subversion of the very Constitution we all hold so dear. It's a shame that so many of you don't see that but instead would rather inject politics into this matter at ever turn.

Sad...very sad.

My understanding is that few have actually challenged the right of the mosque to build there, which is the only thing that Obama has claimed to have defended. I'm not sure how he's defending an American value if that value wasn't seriously questioned.

The question of whether it's smart or sensitive to build there is an entirely different one, one which doesn't involve American values and one which wasn't addressed by Obama.
 
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My understanding is that few have actually challenged the right of the mosque to build there, which is the only thing that Obama has claimed to have defended. I'm not sure how he's defending an American value if that value wasn't seriously questioned.
the idea of a mosque being built there, just touches raw nerves from 9/11, and the idea of anything representing islam/ muslims being built there, will drive many absolutely crazy, regardless if building it there is absolutely legal or not...feelings that i understand, and it makes me wonder why, supporters of this mosque, would want to build there...they have to have known what kind of response they would get.
 
I disagree. The President IS the face of our nation in every respect. As such, he has a responsibility, if not a duty, to defend our nation's values whenever and wherever those values are being sorely misrepresented. You folks have to remember the world is watching. CORRECTION: The Muslim world is watching. And while many here in the U.S. will view this as the President appeasing radical Islam, the truth is he is upholding America's values and the constitutionality of this Mosque being built. To do otherwise is hypocritical, a reversal of basic human rights (freedom of religion) and subversion of the very Constitution we all hold so dear. It's a shame that so many of you don't see that but instead would rather inject politics into this matter at ever turn.

Sad...very sad.

A) Yes they have the right to build their Mosque, that doesn't mean that the group itself should be supported and/or defended.

B) Who gives a **** if the Muslim world is watching as if they have a single thing to say in regards to defending religious tolerance. Should we be dictating domestic policy in regards to what the Muslim world thinks?
 
B) Who gives a **** if the Muslim world is watching as if they have a single thing to say in regards to defending religious tolerance. Should we be dictating domestic policy in regards to what the Muslim world thinks?

Not only, but people who tend to make this argument would also tend to reject the idea that the watching "Muslim world" may also conclude that we're surrendering to them, culturally, even in a small way.

"Symbolism" works a lot of different ways. There is no one-way street.
 
The Muslims didn't have any excuse to attack us. Our foreign policy was in our best interest. That's the same as saying that it's our fault that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Do yourself a favor, go back and read WWII history then come back and maybe we can discuss this matter futher. But for the sake of this issue where U.S. policy may have foster Muslim extremist angst, I think WE repeated the same mistake. Again, I'm not saying that we weren't justified, but you have to see things in their proper historical content to gain a full understanding of what led to certain events.
 
But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Do yourself a favor, go back and read WWII history then come back and maybe we can discuss this matter futher. But for the sake of this issue where U.S. policy may have foster Muslim extremist angst, I think WE repeated the same mistake. Again, I'm not saying that we weren't justified, but you have to see things in their proper historical content to gain a full understanding of what led to certain events.

Using this logic, Japan was actually responsible because they took the actions that forced us to take the actions that led them to bomb us.
 
But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Sure, in order to curtail their brutalization of China. If you think someone is "responsible" for something bad, you mean that it's their fault, that they did something wrong to bring it about. Was trying to stop Japan from brutalizing China an evil for which they rightly smited us? You seem to be saying it was.
 
Using this logic, Japan was actually responsible because they took the actions that forced us to take the actions that led them to bomb us.

Lemme see. We are responsible for taking actions that were responsible for Japan having to bomb the **** out of Pearl Harbor, by which, made them responsible, for the supreme ass whuppin' we put on them afterwards.

I can live with that.

Go U.S.A. :mrgreen:
 
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