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Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

Still just as bad. More people, more division of labor, more production. It's not like we're anywhere close to our capacity to produce food.

Dude...how many people do you think that our country can sustain before we lose the best, wild beautiful parts of it? It's not just about being able to feed everyone. It's about keeping some of what we have for our kids, and their kids, and their kids's kids to enjoy. I am not a fan of "bigger is better." Often, it isn't.

You live in Los Angeles. Guess what? MOst of us don't want to drive on ten lane highways with people on top of people on top of people and a dingy brown skyline.

You could not pay me enough to live in Los Angeles.
 
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I am not appealing to the law, which currently opposes my position. I am appealing to the notion that Americans are one people and Mexicans are another, and merely moving one's residence is not sufficient for one to become the other.

And neither am I.

The process does not exist to make it harder for Mexicans to become Americans, it exists to ensure that people have become Americans before we recognize them as such.

That's what it does. Of course this ignores the arbitrariness of who is and isn't an "American"

For their part, Mexicans recognize this principle when it comes to their own nation.

Mexico's immigration policies are irrelevant

Yes, I am, because there are limits on the number of immigrants we can absorb and still retain our own cultural identity. Our laws should be constructed such that we only accept the number of immigrants that our society can handle.

Our society has been flooded with immigrants for centuries. What makes this group different?
 
Dude...how many people do you think that our country can sustain before we lose the best, wild beautiful parts of it? It's not just about being able to feed everyone. It's about keeping some of what we have for our kids, and their kids, and their kids's kids to enjoy. I am not a fan of "bigger is better." Often, it isn't.

You live in Los Angeles. Guess what? MOst of us don't want to drive on ten lane highways with people on top of people on top of people and a dingy brown skyline.

You could not pay me enough to live in Los Angeles.

Look at Japan's experience with declining birth rates. SS and Medicare aren't paying for themselves.
 
Re: Jan Brewer's comments, negatively generalizing across an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity IS racism.

Its not racism.
Just saying it IS racism isn't going to cut it.

You have to actually prove it.

The way I view it, she wants to keep people focused on the reasons why this legislation is so important. Its for their safety. So equating the illegal immigrants coming from Arizona's border to drug deals (since there is a significant problem with that) helps her keep support for her measures.

A little dishonest? Sure. What politician doesn't play word games and mind tricks to gain support?

Racist? You are going to have to do a lot more to convince me.
 
Re: Jan Brewer's comments, negatively generalizing across an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity IS racism.

p.s. I don't need you to "school" me on this stuff, Mike. I'm probably better informed on what the narcotrafficantes are up to than you are.

I don't need you "schooling me either" You played the race statement. I say BS. So please provide some fact that the Gov made a racist remark or drop it and move on.

I don't know that you are better informed. I worked in a federal agency and close with its LE for years in the SW. Many of the so called drug routes are through public land. So lets stop the insults and agree to disagree, but hey I must be a racist because I agree witht he Gov.:)
 
False Logic, they will be burdens on society unless they integrate. Notice the lack of emphasis on such? They will be burdens because there are so many welfare and social programs aimed at "helping them".

Solution; Kill all entitlement programs and let the states decide
 
If my history serves correctly, I remember reading that Pancho Villa rode across with his Division Del Norte in 1916 and shot up the town of Columbus, New Mexico; this is not much different. The people of Arizona are hard-working hispanics, caucasions, African-Americans and Asians (and native-born Indians) who have melded together in a great melting pot of rugged American diversity. Regardless of how the political winds blow ... those people will protect themselves and their property.
 
Yet removing most of criminal underworld will save tax dollars and lower violence.

The way to accomplish this is to enforce the criminal laws against hiring and housing Invaders. Most people won't risk going to jail and impoverishment to hire invaders once sensible laws are enforced.

Crackdowns on illegals may help somewhat, but a loosening on immigration restrictions is paramount.

Nope, that's backward.

Cracking down on invaders and the criminals who hire and house them is paramount. Without jobs, the Invaders will for the most part self-deport.

No, it shows the results of our immigration restrictions. These people can afford a coyote, but they probably can't afford the regular process.

Besides the point. Dry up the employment market and they have no reason to hire human smugglers to get them in here.

Uncle Sam giving poor people like them a visa is unlikely.

That's because our public schools turn out unskilled laborers by the millions, right here in America. Ain't no reason to give visas to more when there's already a glut on the market.

And that means too bad for them.

Really.

Seriously.

They're not America's problem. We don't want them and they need to go home.


Do they simply shrug and continue living in poverty? No, they sneak in.

And, if we were doing the sensible thing and putting people who hire invaders in jail, would they still be sneaking in?

I don't think so.

This has nothing to do with feeling sorry for them, simply understanding the power of incentives,

Yes, people who oppose the Invasion understand the power of incentives awfully well.

No jobs = no incentives = no invasion.
 
I know that. Whether you or anyone else wants them is irrelevant to them. They want to come, and they will. By making it easier to come in legally, at least they have a chance of rising up instead of being a burden on taxpayers.

Oh, well there's an easy way to stop them from becoming a burden on taxpayers.

Make people present proof of lawful citizenship before recieving public services, as a temporary measure until those services can be eliminated, since most of them shouldn't exist in the first place.
 
I don't know, but the number would be non-zero. People try to thwart the law all the time in all sorts of circumstances even given the possible consequences if caught. I mean if people really universally thought of the consequences first and that acted as a deterrent, we wouldn't have crime.

The number doesn't have to be zero.

Naturally there's always going to be some porosity at the border and in the labor market.

The goal is the creation of a filtration system that captures the turds, the toilet paper, the toy soldier little Johnny flushed, the bacteria and most of the viruses so the pool can once again be considered fit for human use. There's going to be the stray virus, the occasional ameoba that gets through, but as it stands right now, the nation is drinking pure sewage and the nation's immune system, the Border Patrol and the ICE cannot fight the magnitude of the infection.

When sane policies, such as the impoverishment of employers caught knowingly hiring illegals, are in place and the invaders who don't wish to go to jail self-deport, the remainder will be the real criminal aliens law enforcement is best equipped to catch and prosecute.

I certainl support the idea that the funds collected from the impoverishment of the employers of illegal should be made available to give invaders who voluntarily turn themselves in a no-charge ride to the border or their nation of origin, after they're finger printed, DNA'd, photographed, and informed that re-entry illegally is a felony (which it isn't right now, but should be).

National sovereignity is not something that should be thrown away for temporary political expediency.

The Democrats and Republicans who have allowed this invasion to proceed unabated for nearly three decades have allowed the importation of a potential hosile army inside our borders commingled with citizens, and in the event that this army is activated, it's not going to matter to the political leaders south of the border who commands them what our fifty column politicians did to help them.
 
And the biggest barrier to integration is keeping them poor by making it too difficult to immigrate. Of course we should have some screening before we let them in, but the current system is a complete mess.

We have ZERO need for imported unskilled labor.

Nada, to speak the language of the Invader.

Don't give us any guff about there being jobs "Americans won't do", it doesn't wash. There's merely jobs employers don't want to pay someone enough for them to want to do it.
 
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Human trafficking, and especially the trafficking of women and children, is an international problem, not just in the U.S. I think focusing on the illegal immigration situation in just the U.S. is only downplaying the seriousness of the global human trade. People are often lured with false promises to come overseas, and once they arrive they're trapped. Slavery and indentured servitude are still alive and kicking, even in the U.S. and Canada, it's just not something people want to know or talk about. The fact that it's sex slavery and not industrial-strength slavery like the old day should not really ease our minds about this.

People forget that the western nations are wealthy, which means the sickos with a lot of money and time on their hands can pay any sum to have people moved from country to country. You'd be surprised what levels of society are involved. It's not just the low life pimps of the streets. There's also an upper crust at work, especially when it comes to child trafficking.

Even if the border has a wall, it's not going to stop the root of the trafficking practice. These low lives have centuries worth of experience in moving humans from one place to another under the radar. They are always adapting and their greatest weapon is our systemic ignorance of the problem.

What this means is that mowing the lawn can never be finished becuase the grass grows as it's being cut.

It also means that height of the grass can only be lowered if the lawn mower is used, and that means it has to start somewhere and keep going.

Doing nothing isn't a valid option, but right now it's the option we're being forced to take.
 
We have ZERO need for imported unskilled labor.

Nada, to speak the language of the Invader.

Don't give us any guff about there being jobs "Americans won't do", it doesn't wash. There's merely jobs employers don't want to pay someone enough for them to want to do it.

I always get a little nauseated when I see lines like that...especially when spoken by Hilary Clinton of all people. I remember throwin bales of hay for a nickel a bale. Kids used to work the orchards for extra spending money. I know an awful lot of people that worked two and three jobs to provide for their families and yes...some of those jobs were unskilled jobs that came with a paycheck. If you are out of work and you arent willing to do those other jobs...I have just a few words for you...

On the one hand I am very sympathetic to the plight of the illegals. Truth be told...if my family was living in that ****hole that is mexico...Id be here in a heartbeat. But there is still the rule of law and there are other key economic factors that go into our legal immigration laws. And if you dont follow them...we have greater problems.
 
I think that he's saying that they would then be a greater net positive and less negative drain on the system. I'm just not sure how we'd, for instance, refuse to treat them at hospital emergency rooms. Or, refuse to enroll their kids in school. I can't see that happening, which means that working harder to cut off the incentive to come here is the only real option.

Treat them in the hospital and have the triage nurse call ICE in the meantime.

Since the kid's parents are here illegally, there shouldn't be any reason parents of illegals attepting to put their kid in a public school shouldn't be checked, arrested and deported

I see ALL KINDS of cost savings and deterrent possiblities here.
 
On the one hand I am very sympathetic to the plight of the illegals. Truth be told...if my family was living in that ****hole that is mexico...Id be here in a heartbeat. But there is still the rule of law and there are other key economic factors that go into our legal immigration laws. And if you dont follow them...we have greater problems.


Aye.

But we have to face the reality. The Life Boat US of A is full, and it was never large enough to take and support the entire national population of Mexico, anyway.

American teenagers can't find summer jobs and part-time jobs for school because invaders have flooded the job market.

American adults are facing a 9.5% OFFICIAL unemployment rate that's more likely 15% or more unofficially, and yet there's illegals in this country working.

That's just flat out wrong. Something needs to be done to send those people home. If their home is having difficulties, they need to go home and fix those problems. If that means they need to have an armed revolution in Mexico to topple the corrupt power structure that's wrecked their nation's economy, then that's what they need to do.

I have a lot of respect for Mexicans. They're hard working family people who could be an asset to Mexico if they weren't busy breaking the law here.
 
I'm arguing the opposite.

Making it inaccessable will cut off those who come here just for benefits of the system and it will keep those who want to work and start a family.
Basically keep those who want to be American.

What about those who are already Americans but who can't find work because they're being undercut by illegals that allow their employer to skirt the law and save money?
 
In a perfect world, sure, but illegals obtaining free medical care via emergency rooms is bankrupting a lot of healthcare systems in the southwest. How are you going to fix that?

By requiring that the police be called for all persons who can't show proof of citizenship when applying for emergency medical care.

And, are you going to deny illegal children access to school?

Why not?


What part of "illegal" is confusing you?
 
How do you ask someone who's been stabbed through the lung to provide proof of legal residency before providing medical care?

They can't really fight back when you pull their wallet out of their pocket, can they?

And if they can't provide any ID, then all the hospital has to do is phone the cops and let them deal with it. The patient can refuse service and die, of course.

Considering that hospitals and doctors are required by law to report to the authorities all gunshot wounds and knifings, it's not a stretch to require them to report potential invader sitings, either.


It's not like your average stabbing victim carries his birth certificate in his pocket.

But most will have their driver's license, and almost all states require proof of citizenship before issuing the license.
 
Aye.

But we have to face the reality. The Life Boat US of A is full, and it was never large enough to take and support the entire national population of Mexico, anyway.

American teenagers can't find summer jobs and part-time jobs for school because invaders have flooded the job market.

American adults are facing a 9.5% OFFICIAL unemployment rate that's more likely 15% or more unofficially, and yet there's illegals in this country working.

That's just flat out wrong. Something needs to be done to send those people home. If their home is having difficulties, they need to go home and fix those problems. If that means they need to have an armed revolution in Mexico to topple the corrupt power structure that's wrecked their nation's economy, then that's what they need to do.

I have a lot of respect for Mexicans. They're hard working family people who could be an asset to Mexico if they weren't busy breaking the law here.

I agree. ANd there are just so many things wrong with the way things are...

As bad as it is in mexico economically, how many of their potential doctors, educators and scientists are out there right now weeding lawns? How much of the money that should be feeding the US economy is being funneled into mexico, the DR, Cuba, Hait, etc? How many generations live in fear of being caught or expelled.

And you are right...at some point we HAVE to fix ourselves if we are ever going to be able to help others.
 
By requiring that the police be called for all persons who can't show proof of citizenship when applying for emergency medical care.

Why not?
What part of "illegal" is confusing you?

I think you can accomplish a LOT of this fairly easily. 1-Penalize the hell out of anyone that knowingly hires an illegal immigrant. 2-Require that ONLY American citizens can get support from federal and or state agencies (if chirches want to continue to provide assistance...fine...). Let the kids register for school, but if the family is found to be here illegal they are all of them, kids included, deported.
 
Its not racism.
Just saying it IS racism isn't going to cut it.

Racism is an inappropriate generalization about an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity. I didn't make the definition up, Caine. I'm just going by what the dictionary says. Sorry if that doesn't suit you.

Ditto, Mike.
 
Racism is an inappropriate generalization about an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity. I didn't make the definition up, Caine. I'm just going by what the dictionary says. Sorry if that doesn't suit you.

Ditto, Mike.

". The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

IMO, you stretched the definition of racism. As I said the Gov's statement was ill advisted. How stating that illegals carrying drugs is discrimination, predudice, etc. is racism is playing the race card. We just fail to communicate. IMO, the use of race as an excuse in Arizona is becoming like the "F" word. The more its used, the less impact it has.

We definately need the Feds, State, and Local LE to get a handle on human smuggling into the US, kidnapping/holding illegals for more money and drug trafficing. IMO, it would be benifical if Obama would sponser a summitt of States to work on the illegal immigration, security and border violance issue. The results of the summitt could provide Congress and the Adminstration a blue print to develop new immigration laws. Without ground level participation, the issue will continue to be politics as usual.
 
IMO, you stretched the definition of racism. As I said the Gov's statement was ill advisted. How stating that illegals carrying drugs is discrimination, predudice, etc. is racism is playing the race card. We just fail to communicate. IMO, the use of race as an excuse in Arizona is becoming like the "F" word. The more its used, the less impact it has.

Listen, if Governor Brewer has stated that SOME illegal Mexicans were involved in drug distribution, I'd completely agree. But saying that ALL illegals are involved in drug trafficking is not only racist, it's simply inaccurate.
 
Racism is an inappropriate generalization about an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity. I didn't make the definition up, Caine. I'm just going by what the dictionary says. Sorry if that doesn't suit you.

Ditto, Mike.

Just saying racism doesn't cut it.
How is it racist?
Did you invoke the race of the mexican/and or hispanic group as nothing but drug dealers? Or did she claim the illegals coming from the border were a bunch of drug dealers?

Why no response to my reasoning behind why she said what she said?
 
Just saying racism doesn't cut it.
How is it racist?
Did you invoke the race of the mexican/and or hispanic group as nothing but drug dealers? Or did she claim the illegals coming from the border were a bunch of drug dealers?

Why no response to my reasoning behind why she said what she said?

I understand her reasoning. Nonetheless, she inappropriately and negatively generalized about an entire group of people, implying that they're all coming here to sell drugs. I don't even know why we're quibbling about this, you and I both know she's full of crap. A lot of Mexicans and central Americans come here because their own countries are ****holes and they want to take care of their kids. They're still violating our laws by doing so, though.
 
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