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Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

So, you think that by providing illegal immigrants with benefits we will make them more desireable?

I'm arguing the opposite.

Making it inaccessable will cut off those who come here just for benefits of the system and it will keep those who want to work and start a family.
Basically keep those who want to be American.
 
I'm arguing the opposite.

Making it inaccessable will cut off those who come here just for benefits of the system and it will keep those who want to work and start a family.
Basically keep those who want to be American.

I am in agreement then.
 
In a perfect world, sure, but illegals obtaining free medical care via emergency rooms is bankrupting a lot of healthcare systems in the southwest. How are you going to fix that?

And, are you going to deny illegal children access to school?

Those are both major, expensive benefits that are currently huge issues in Arizona (and elsewhere).
 
In a perfect world, sure, but illegals obtaining free medical care via emergency rooms is bankrupting a lot of healthcare systems in the southwest. How are you going to fix that?

And, are you going to deny illegal children access to school?

First off, I would allow them to immigrate legally but they would not be allowed subsidized access to these things.
I would make sure it was widely noted when they entered that, you cannot have things at the expense of other naturalized citizens.

That should filter those who want to be here to work and become a part of the people.
Only later should it be allowed.

Those are both major, expensive benefits that are currently huge issues in Arizona (and elsewhere).

The benefits will eventually be realized.
I am for open immigration with restricted access to social services, including education.
 
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First off, I would allow them to immigrate legally but they would not be allowed subsidized access to these things.
I would make sure it was widely noted when they entered that, you cannot have things at the expense of other naturalized citizens.

That should filter those who want to be here to work and become a part of the people.
Only later should it be allowed.



The benefits will eventually be realized.
I am for open immigration with restricted access to social services, including education.

I have to agree with Catz on this point, even with an open immigration system I cannot see how you remedy the issues she brought up.
 
I have to agree with Catz on this point, even with an open immigration system I cannot see how you remedy the issues she brought up.

Don't allow free emergency room visits for new immigrants.
I'm sorry but it sucks, there is a cost to open immigration and it has to be paid by the new immigrants.
 
Don't allow free emergency room visits for new immigrants.
I'm sorry but it sucks, there is a cost to open immigration and it has to be paid by the new immigrants.

Doctors take an oath, how do you get around this? And, I should add that we have American citizens who abuse the ER and are draining the system as well.
 
Doctors take an oath, how do you get around this?

A lot of doctors don't follow this oath anymore.
It's mostly fluff.

And, I should add that we have American citizens who abuse the ER and are draining the system as well.

They should be forced to pay like everyone else.
Make medical bills non bankrupt able with reasonable payment plans.
 
How do you ask someone who's been stabbed through the lung to provide proof of legal residency before providing medical care? It's not like your average stabbing victim carries his birth certificate in his pocket.
 
They cannot acquire these things because they are somewhere they do not belong and somewhere that they have no right to be. These things are privileges that belong to the rightful inhabitants of this country.

Of course making it easier to belong fixes these problems Korimyr. I don't get your appeals to the law. I have no problem with cracking down on illegals. There isn't really much if any disagreement here. I simply propose making the laws easier to follow.

The previous wave of huddled masses expected their children to join mainstream American society. The children of immigrants who follow this pattern are fully capable of receiving good educations and good employment opportunities and are statistically more successful than the children of natural born citizens. I have no complaint against immigrants who come to this country understanding that success in America depends upon adaptation to American cultural values.

They were able to immigrate, because they didn't have to wait years for a small chance at a work visa. You want them to integrate, and so do I. However, by keeping our restrictions on legal immigration, you're keeping them out.
 
Actually, we need to remove the economic incentive for illegal immigrants to come by cracking down harder on the businesses and individuals who hire them.

I support this, but as I said, this is, at best, a partial solution. Stop making all of the legality arguments. I do not support breaking the law, only changing it. Plenty of people will still break the law. The main part of the solution is to make it easier to immigrate legally.
 
How do you ask someone who's been stabbed through the lung to provide proof of legal residency before providing medical care? It's not like your average stabbing victim carries his birth certificate in his pocket.

A license should do fine.
Most people carry it and if they are somehow not legal, which my idea makes that a virtual impossibility, then they can be tossed out afterward.

I'm talking about open immigration with restrictions on state aid.
So to make it cheaper for us to absorb these people, they have to pay their own.

Sounds pretty fair to me.
 
How many people do you think we can realistically absorb, without causing environmental problems?

See, I'm perfectly happy with our population not increasing.
 
How many people do you think we can realistically absorb, without causing environmental problems?

See, I'm perfectly happy with our population not increasing.


That's one of the arguments that Illegal Alien proponents use..... "The US population is decreasing so we need more immigration".

I say BS........ I want the population to go down, I don't want to become a minority in a 3rd world country.

Just call me old fashioned.
 
That's one of the arguments that Illegal Alien proponents use..... "The US population is decreasing so we need more immigration".

I say BS........ I want the population to go down, I don't want to become a minority in a 3rd world country.

Just call me old fashioned.

True dat. Los Angeles, Phoenix, Atlanta, none of these areas can sustain their own population size with water. We're having blackouts on the east coast. And people want to add an unlimited number of poor, unskilled people?

Uh, hell to the no.
 
True dat. Los Angeles, Phoenix, Atlanta, none of these areas can sustain their own population size with water. We're having blackouts on the east coast. And people want to add an unlimited number of poor, unskilled people?

Uh, hell to the no.

You are just one of those "party of no" people.

Bad Dog......... No biscuit.
 
You are just one of those "party of no" people.

Bad Dog......... No biscuit.

Oddly enough, I'm kind of a whackjob environmentalist in some ways. That's my most conservative/liberal tendency, however you define feeling that we should be working towards zero growth, zero dependence on foreign oil (and ultimately fossil fuels), and very low levels of immigration.
 
Not everyone will want to come, especially with social services cut off.

Mexico is on the verge of major upheaval, and the government has in many regards been co-opted by the narcotrafficantes. Trust me, they will still want to come. IT is much safer in the U.S. right now. And, think about El Salvador...
 
Oddly enough, I'm kind of a whackjob environmentalist in some ways. That's my most conservative/liberal tendency, however you define feeling that we should be working towards zero growth, zero dependence on foreign oil (and ultimately fossil fuels), and very low levels of immigration.

Please excuse me while I go puke. Bringing economic progress to a halt? When did this become a commendable goal?
 
Of course making it easier to belong fixes these problems Korimyr. I don't get your appeals to the law. I have no problem with cracking down on illegals. There isn't really much if any disagreement here. I simply propose making the laws easier to follow.

I am not appealing to the law, which currently opposes my position. I am appealing to the notion that Americans are one people and Mexicans are another, and merely moving one's residence is not sufficient for one to become the other. The process does not exist to make it harder for Mexicans to become Americans, it exists to ensure that people have become Americans before we recognize them as such.

For their part, Mexicans recognize this principle when it comes to their own nation.

However, by keeping our restrictions on legal immigration, you're keeping them out.

Yes, I am, because there are limits on the number of immigrants we can absorb and still retain our own cultural identity. Our laws should be constructed such that we only accept the number of immigrants that our society can handle.
 
Mexico is on the verge of major upheaval, and the government has in many regards been co-opted by the narcotrafficantes. Trust me, they will still want to come. IT is much safer in the U.S. right now. And, think about El Salvador...

Depends on which part of Mexico.
Most of the rest of the country, except for the border areas is all good, relatively speaking.

We could do ourselves a giant favor and legalize marijuana from cultivation to consumption.
 
Depends on which part of Mexico.
Most of the rest of the country, except for the border areas is all good, relatively speaking.

We could do ourselves a giant favor and legalize marijuana from cultivation to consumption.

That's a whole nother thread, isn't it?
 
Zero population growth, not zero economic growth.

Still just as bad. More people, more division of labor, more production. It's not like we're anywhere close to our capacity to produce food.
 
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