Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

StaggerLee said:

Sadly,

I firmly believe, if in fact there were another 20 gun toting red blooded americans around when these shootings occur, who were "pre-tuned" to "High alert" status anyway, (which is why they carry), then a travesty of 5-6 dead would in all probability become a larger travesty of 10-15 dead. As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i just believe that would lead to larger numbers of victims. To me, that's defeating...and sad....So the question remains, "What do you do?", "How do we solve the problem"?...We can't realistically stop these events from happening, only mitigate the outcomes.

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Sir, that makes no sense whatsoever.

You'd have to assume that 20 CCWs were going to start shooting indiscriminately and with zero judgement and crappy aim to come to that conclusion.



Depending on what source you believe, approximately 1 person in 50 goes armed regularly. In any given crowd, it is improbable that more than one or two are armed.

In most states CCW holders have to demonstrate the ability to hit their chosen target consistently with reasonable accuracy. Also, legal training explains that you're responsible regarding where your bullets go... everyone knows that hitting bystanders is BAD, and that AIMING is good.

Lotta assumptions with no support in your post.

Available data indicates that armed citizens are more likely to attempt to capture a criminal or make him run than to actually shoot him when such action is realistically possible. Also, while statisical analysis is lacking, available data on actual incidents indicates CCWs are probably less likely to shoot the wrong person or a bystander than police. Possibly this is because they know damn well they'd better be RIGHT when they shoot, because they won't get the slack that cops sometimes get in the event they were wrong.

It would appear that you lack much knowlege about CCWers and shooting incidents.

As I've mentioned, I've been training private citizens in shooting skills quite some time, and I've also been a cop. IMHO, most armed citizens I know are not the schmucks you seem to assume they are. Your speculation is without merit.

Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

StaggerLee said:

Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

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It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.

Goshin said:

It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.

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Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea. I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion. Regardless, i'm not here to have a boxing match, i'm just here to express my opinion on matters. I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't. And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all. But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...

StaggerLee said:

Sadly,

I firmly believe, if in fact there were another 20 gun toting red blooded americans around when these shootings occur, who were "pre-tuned" to "High alert" status anyway, (which is why they carry), then a travesty of 5-6 dead would in all probability become a larger travesty of 10-15 dead.

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"pre-tuned" to "high alert" status saves lives period. In fact most police in the field stress constantly to people to be aware of your surroundings at all times, observe and prepare. This means that those CCW holders would under most circumstances have already observed behaviors allowing them to make a plan. As well, and as has been stated CCW permit holders don't engage in indiscriminate fire as the jackass in this news article did. This guy engaged in an ambush and it worked because he had a bunch of defenseless and unaware targets. Your assumptions are laughably false.

As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i just believe that would lead to larger numbers of victims.

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This is gross assumption and improvable as well as improbable.

To me, that's defeating...and sad....So the question remains, "What do you do?", "How do we solve the problem"?...We can't realistically stop these events from happening, only mitigate the outcomes.

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Wrong on many levels. A defenseless public was the problem, you solve that problem by getting out of the way and allowing people to live free and defend themselves, not by hand wringing and more control.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

WTF does that even mean? :lamo


My one year old could have come up with a better retort than that. :doh

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Ahh yes, a personal insult. SOP for some I guess. Now I remember why I haven't been reading your posts.

Goshin said:

It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.

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StaggerLee said:

Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea. I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion. Regardless, i'm not here to have a boxing match, i'm just here to express my opinion on matters. I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't. And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all. But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...

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Hey G, isn't it funny how people who admit they have no experience like to tell those with it their opinion is of equal standing?:lamo

So the problem is that there were'nt a hundred armed citizens standing there at the time of the shooting? Ok, great. But do tell, how is the statement, "As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i believe (again, its my belief), there would be more victims"...a gross assumption and unprovable? I disagree, it's very provable, it's human nature. But ok, whatever works. Anyway, have a good one.._

Really? Opinions have ranking value? If that's what makes you all feel important.....i didnt realize we werent entitled to opinions and beliefs if they didnt agree with everybody else...oh darn...

StaggerLee said:

Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea.

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The physiological (physical} symptoms related to fear and adrenaline are: breathlessness, shaky hands, tunnel vision, and tache-psyche. Most of these can be simulated by various training methods, including running the student until they are badly fatigued, applying psychological stressors to induce a emotional reaction, and so on.

No, this isn't a perfect simulation equating to combat. The only way to do that would be to have them actually shoot at each other with real bullets. :roll:

The closest we can get to that are simunitions. Simunitions are an ammunition that are shot thru realistic guns; they are not deadly but they do hurt like a sumbitch. Tactical exercises using sims are another common training technique.

So how do you think cops are trained? The truth is, not very well in many departments. :doh

The truth is that the average policeman is not much better trained than the average CCW citizen, in my experience. Don't like armed citizens? You'd better be dubious about armed police also, then, to be consistent. Not to mention that armed citizens are only allowed to shoot against a clear and imminent danger to lives, while policemen may shoot under other circumstances in some cases.

I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion.

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Not at all. I don't know any competent gun trainer that doesn't address that aspect.

I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't.

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No, this is exactly my point. People seem to think cops have some magic ability to deal with things like shoot-outs without letting their emotions become engaged. Not so. A cop I worked with who skillfully handled a VERY hairy situation one night was asked "Were you scared?" His reply: "You couldn't have drove a toothpick up my ass with a sledgehammer I was so scared!" :mrgreen:
I'm here to tell you there is no magic training method that removes that aspect, neither in cops nor in civilians. If you oppose allowing citizens to go armed, you need to oppose letting cops go armed... because cops are just human beings too, and nobody waves a magic wand over them and says "you are now immune to stress and emotion."

And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all.

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Positions are based on things. They may be based on data, experience, statistics, logic, emotion, or empty air. What they are based on determines their worth.

I've explained that my positions are based on many years experience in these matters. On many occasions here at DP, I've posted sources and data to back up my positions on guns and armed citizens.

Not all opinions are created equal.

But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...

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My pleasure, any time. :mrgreen:

StaggerLee said:

Really? Opinions have ranking value? If that's what makes you all feel important.....i didnt realize we werent entitled to opinions and beliefs if they didnt agree with everybody else...oh darn...

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Considering that you assert your uninformed and unbacked opinion is of equal standing to a trained former officer who trains civilians to use weapons, and have asserted that a tragic shooting would have been worse with armed civilians because of a hypothetical lacking any backing in reality or empirical evidence then yes. I'd say some opinions are definitely worth more than others.

Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion. Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it. That's just plain wrong. Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)

MaggieD said:

Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion.

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I'm not an expert but have been trained in weaponry. I study general arms and their histories, tactics, etc. and it irks me when someone makes uninformed statements about them.

Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it.

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Actually, when one comes in assuming that armed citizens are irrational I will correct it.

That's just plain wrong.

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I disagree. We on the pro-second side have encountered these cookie cutter positions and arguments endlessly and the story never changes, we are sick of it.

Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)

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Y'Know Maggie, I like ya as a poster, but newbs gotta pay dues sometimes. S'not a big deal.

MaggieD said:

Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion. Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it. That's just plain wrong. Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)

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Hm? I thought I was reasonably polite, given that he didn't have a leg to stand on. I did him the courtesy of addressing his points, even though I've heard that bogus argument so many times it makes my teeth ache. :shrug:

StaggerLee said:

Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

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Well, We don't train for "aiming" we train for hits on target center mass under stress down range... We for one don't teach you to shoot with a gun we teach you how to fight with a gun. :shrug:

The Uncola said:

Ahh yes, a personal insult. SOP for some I guess. Now I remember why I haven't been reading your posts.

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You're serious aren't you? :lol:


You post:

The Uncola said:

Thanks for making my point. I knew I could depend on someone like you.

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Then you whine about personal insults? Please you read my posts, you are just intimidated by the facts. :thumbs:



There always has to be "that guy", congrats, you are, "that guy". :roll:

StaggerLee said:

So the problem is that there were'nt a hundred armed citizens standing there at the time of the shooting? Ok, great. But do tell, how is the statement, "As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i believe (again, its my belief), there would be more victims"...a gross assumption and unprovable? I disagree, it's very provable, it's human nature. But ok, whatever works. Anyway, have a good one.._

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"because I say so" is not proof... Sorry.

StaggerLee said:

Really? Opinions have ranking value? If that's what makes you all feel important.....i didnt realize we werent entitled to opinions and beliefs if they didnt agree with everybody else...oh darn...

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I am a trial attorney handling employment, civil rights and tort cases (defense). Opinion testimony is only permitted from experts so yes opinions do have rankings

For example, I have been involved in a shooting (of a mugger) and I have defended police officers in shootings. I know the law of self defense inside and out. I also have taught Ohio CCW classes, and have served as a guest instructor at two major league academies that teach lethal force, one is called the "lethal force institute". The other is equally prestigious.

So when I talk about gunfights I would say my opinions are a bit more worthwhile than say someone who has never been in a shooting incident, has never tried a shooting case, and isn't able to say draw and shoot three human sized targets in under a couple seconds at 15 yards.

independent_thinker2002 said:

Never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend on firing it.

To be fair, this guy's foot was threatening him. :lol:

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If that dumbass was shooting at the offending party, he should have aimed at that hair!

Holy bat****!!! What a dumbass!!! Good thing he is "the only one there professional enough to use that gun."

On the plus side...the KIDS showed remarkable restraint! Are we sure that wasnt staged?

Catz Part Deux said:

This is exactly right. Even though I work with law enforcement, we would NEVER be allowed to carry weapons in our building. THis is true for 99.9% of corporate America.

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When you cant carry a gun, 5 carbon steel shuriken's taped to your side will work in a pinch!

As does pepper foam...

Catz Part Deux said:

He certainly cleared my rectum.

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Rectum? Damn near killed um!

badumbum...

VanceMack said:

When you cant carry a gun, 5 carbon steel shuriken's taped to your side will work in a pinch!

As does pepper foam...

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spyderco clipit with the new top tool steel

or better yet a "guardfather" looks like a pen-hit the button and a 6" case hardened spike shoots out the front like a MicroTech HALO stilleto

goes right through a Level IIA spectra vest!

TurtleDude said:

spyderco clipit with the new top tool steel

or better yet a "guardfather" looks like a pen-hit the button and a 6" case hardened spike shoots out the front like a MicroTech HALO stilleto

goes right through a Level IIA spectra vest!

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Actually sharp objects go through most, non-hard plated armor. rof

TurtleDude said:

spyderco clipit with the new top tool steel

or better yet a "guardfather" looks like a pen-hit the button and a 6" case hardened spike shoots out the front like a MicroTech HALO stilleto

goes right through a Level IIA spectra vest!

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Time to ban "assault" knives...

I really liked my Spiderco...but honestly...I have a no name blade I bought at military clothing sales for like 4 dollars that is the same length, holds an edge, and has has the same easy open capability...and DIDNT cost the 85 bones the Spiderco did. I'll spend money on 'good' firearms...Im so over buying expensive knives...

VanceMack said:

Time to ban "assault" knives...

I really liked my Spiderco...but honestly...I have a no name blade I bought at military clothing sales for like 4 dollars that is the same length, holds an edge, and has has the same easy open capability...and DIDNT cost the 85 bones the Spiderco did. I'll spend money on 'good' firearms...Im so over buying expensive knives...

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EOD guy turned me on to Mission Knives years ago... Titanium blade.


MissionKnives.com, The Toughest Knives in the World!