• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ground zero mosque wins key vote

Look. I think its time this topic was put to rest, as ive said 1000 times before, this is not about Islam vs. Christianity, or anything else except these 2 things.

Freedom of Religion
Private property rights

If you want to amend these 2 things to include an Anti-Islam clause, then by all means go ahead.

But as a matter of law, there is nothing you can do to stop it.

I read somewhere that defense of the first amendment only matters when what you're defending utterly appalls you. I would tend to agree with that thought. In general, I am not a fan of Islam, or any other fundamentalist variant of religion. I consider these beliefs detrimental to our country. HOWEVER, having said that...

Our civil liberties are too important to allow my personal biases to form my opinion on this subject. People have the right to speech that I disapprove of.

This is actually the first step towards censorship of people on the basis of their beliefs and/or criminalizing thought crimes. THAT is anti-American.
 
Last edited:
I feel you are a liberal in many ways, but if you want to understand that question....ask Redress.

If you feel that I am a liberal, it's likely only because your conservativism is so extreme that I appear liberal in comparison. But, I am in no way a liberal.
 
Look. I think its time this topic was put to rest, as ive said 1000 times before, this is not about Islam vs. Christianity, or anything else except these 2 things.

Freedom of Religion
Private property rights

If you want to amend these 2 things to include an Anti-Islam clause, then by all means go ahead.

But as a matter of law, there is nothing you can do to stop it.


Matthew 13:[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

It doesn't matter really if the mosque is there or not, if they are wrong it will be sorted out at some point.
 
If you feel that I am a liberal, it's likely only because your conservativism is so extreme that I appear liberal in comparison. But, I am in no way a liberal.

Then you don't know what extremely conservative is. The only person on this site that I truly believe is moderate/centrist is donsutherland. Mostly I don't believe in those words though.
 
Look. I think its time this topic was put to rest, as ive said 1000 times before, this is not about Islam vs. Christianity, or anything else except these 2 things.

Freedom of Religion
Private property rights

If you want to amend these 2 things to include an Anti-Islam clause, then by all means go ahead.

But as a matter of law, there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Freedom of Religion has certain restrictions when the religious practices come into conflict with the law.
 
Freedom of Religion has certain restrictions when the religious practices come into conflict with the law.

And how does this mosque comes into conflict with the law?
 
If it were in my power, I'd deport every Muslim in Europe and the Americas. Either back to their country of origin or to their Islamic nation of choice. And I would prohibit citizenship or permanent residency to any Muslim. I would still trade with them, but I'd keep them in their own lands.

By the way, even were you to modify the First Amendment to somehow permit such a ham-fisted approach, this is a classic example of a bill of attainder. No court in the nation would let such an action by the government stand.
 
Look. I think its time this topic was put to rest, as ive said 1000 times before, this is not about Islam vs. Christianity, or anything else except these 2 things.

Freedom of Religion
Private property rights

If you want to amend these 2 things to include an Anti-Islam clause, then by all means go ahead.

But as a matter of law, there is nothing you can do to stop it.


This is amazing to me for a couple of reasons. First off, this struggle with radical Islam may not be a "religious war" to us, but I can assure you to those who started this, it is to them.

Second, you speak of our freedoms, and property rights, well, these things come with responsibility. The responsibility to not offend a majority of people by erecting a monument to Islamic victory on 9/11.

this isn't about amending our constitution, it is however, about respect for those innocent lives taken in a hideous act of violence in the name of Allah on 9/11, and the utter insult of erecting a monument to the murders of those 3000.

Using our own laws against us is exactly what is called for in Jihad.

I couldn't say it better than this:




j-mac
 
this isn't about amending our constitution, it is however, about respect for those innocent lives taken in a hideous act of violence in the name of Allah on 9/11, and the utter insult of erecting a monument to the murders of those 3000.

If they were talking about erecting statues of or hanging portraits of the 9/11 bombers, I could see your point. I could also see the place burning down just as they were cutting the ribbon. :lol:

This is like saying that building a church a few blocks away from a bombed-out women's health clinic is building a monument to those murdered in the blast. Complete and utter crap.
 
Yeah! Those bastards want to destroy our way of life and the freedom we represent, so to stick it to them we should buck our way of life and destroy the freedoms we represent! Yeah! That'll show'em!
 
Then you don't know what extremely conservative is. The only person on this site that I truly believe is moderate/centrist is donsutherland. Mostly I don't believe in those words though.

Only an extreme conservative would want to dismantle the bill of rights to squash Islamists.
 
Freedom of Religion has certain restrictions when the religious practices come into conflict with the law.

HOw has this mosque come into conflict with the law? What criminal activity have these people engaged in? Please, feel free to outline this, in detail.

The simple fact that you don't like them doesn't mean that they are breaking the law. Or even, for that matter, committing a criminal conspiracy.
 
If they were talking about erecting statues of or hanging portraits of the 9/11 bombers, I could see your point. I could also see the place burning down just as they were cutting the ribbon. :lol:

This is like saying that building a church a few blocks away from a bombed-out women's health clinic is building a monument to those murdered in the blast. Complete and utter crap.


Instead of picking out a part of what I posted to feign outrage at Dan, why don't you read, and view the entire thing. Do you even know why this Imam wanted to name this offensive mosque "Cordoba House"? Do you even know the significance?

Ignorance will be no excuse.


j-mac
 
HOw has this mosque come into conflict with the law? What criminal activity have these people engaged in? Please, feel free to outline this, in detail.

The simple fact that you don't like them doesn't mean that they are breaking the law. Or even, for that matter, committing a criminal conspiracy.

The Bill of Rights has not been interpreted by the Court to be without some reasonable restrictions. Freedom of speech stops at libel, slander, yelling fire in a crowded theater (when there is no fire), etc. A logical limitation on the 2nd Amendment would be the exclusion of criminals and the mentally insane from the right to keep and bear arms.

For the same reason, I think there can be a reasonable restriction on freedom of religion. If you worship Quetzelcoatl, you aren't going to be allowed to cut out someone's heart for a sacrifice. A Kali worshipper can't strangle a sacrifical victim and the druids can't burn a man in a basket at Samhain.

For the same reason, I think that sooner or later, we must prohibit Islam in this country. The Koran and Hadith commands Muslims to convert the world to Islam by peaceful means if possible, by deception and violence if necessary. The options are to pay a dhimmi tax if you are Jewish or Christian, convert to Islam or die. Atheists don't get to keep the option of not believing. If their numbers were small, or they were otherwise incapable of making good on their commandment, then it wouldn't be much of an issue. But their numbers continue to grow both in this country and in others and their means of waging war now constitute a clear and present danger to the US.
 
Yeah! Those bastards want to destroy our way of life and the freedom we represent, so to stick it to them we should buck our way of life and destroy the freedoms we represent! Yeah! That'll show'em!


Mockery to make yourself appear to be moderate is a thinly veiled rouse. Fact of the matter is that this mosque is an atrocity that should not go forward where they want it.

j-mac
 
Mockery to make yourself appear to be moderate is a thinly veiled rouse. Fact of the matter is that this mosque is an atrocity that should not go forward where they want it.

j-mac

I don't mock your argument to appear to be moderate. I mock your argument based solely and singularly on conservative principles, namely the respect and adherence to the constitution and the belief that government shouldn't be shoving its nose into private individuals business actions.

Disagreeing with hysterical people who use their fears and hatreds to justify ****ting upon our constitution does not make a moderate
 
The Bill of Rights has not been interpreted by the Court to be without some reasonable restrictions. Freedom of speech stops at libel, slander, yelling fire in a crowded theater (when there is no fire), etc. A logical limitation on the 2nd Amendment would be the exclusion of criminals and the mentally insane from the right to keep and bear arms.

For the same reason, I think there can be a reasonable restriction on freedom of religion. If you worship Quetzelcoatl, you aren't going to be allowed to cut out someone's heart for a sacrifice. A Kali worshipper can't strangle a sacrifical victim and the druids can't burn a man in a basket at Samhain.

For the same reason, I think that sooner or later, we must prohibit Islam in this country. The Koran and Hadith commands Muslims to convert the world to Islam by peaceful means if possible, by deception and violence if necessary. The options are to pay a dhimmi tax if you are Jewish or Christian, convert to Islam or die. Atheists don't get to keep the option of not believing. If their numbers were small, or they were otherwise incapable of making good on their commandment, then it wouldn't be much of an issue. But their numbers continue to grow both in this country and in others and their means of waging war now constitute a clear and present danger to the US.

We don't need to ban Islam. The first amendment allows for religious freedom, and also protects us from religious persecution. Muslims can practice peacefully, and if anyone goes out of line the first amendment will protect all non-muslims. It's that simple. No need to piss on the first amendment because your scared.
 
For the same reason, I think there can be a reasonable restriction on freedom of religion. If you worship Quetzelcoatl, you aren't going to be allowed to cut out someone's heart for a sacrifice. A Kali worshipper can't strangle a sacrifical victim and the druids can't burn a man in a basket at Samhain.

For the same reason, I think that sooner or later, we must prohibit Islam in this country. The Koran and Hadith commands Muslims to convert the world to Islam by peaceful means if possible, by deception and violence if necessary. The options are to pay a dhimmi tax if you are Jewish or Christian, convert to Islam or die. Atheists don't get to keep the option of not believing. If their numbers were small, or they were otherwise incapable of making good on their commandment, then it wouldn't be much of an issue. But their numbers continue to grow both in this country and in others and their means of waging war now constitute a clear and present danger to the US.

There is a big difference between cutting out someone's heart and prostelytizing. Don't Christians believe that you must convert to Christianity or suffer eternally in the afterlife?

You're promoting thought crimes. I can't buy into putting limits on people's freedom to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, as long as they aren't committing criminal acts. Wanting to convert people isn't a criminal act. Thinking people should die isn't a crime. Planning or committing that murder IS in fact a crime, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I wonder why this is so hard for you people.
 
Last edited:
We don't need to ban Islam. The first amendment allows for religious freedom, and also protects us from religious persecution. Muslims can practice peacefully, and if anyone goes out of line the first amendment will protect all non-muslims. It's that simple. No need to piss on the first amendment because your scared.

lol....Whether their beliefs are true and Allah is the one and only God or not is ****ing irrelevant. The issue is whether they are a threat or not.

Do we consider them a threat? Yes! Unfortunately, you haven't researched Islam enough to make any sort of educated statement about the ultimate goals or principles of the religion
 
Do we consider them a threat? Yes! Unfortunately, you haven't researched Islam enough to make any sort of educated statement about the ultimate goals or principles of the religion

What specific criminal acts have the members of this mosque committed?
 
The Bill of Rights has not been interpreted by the Court to be without some reasonable restrictions. Freedom of speech stops at libel, slander, yelling fire in a crowded theater (when there is no fire), etc. A logical limitation on the 2nd Amendment would be the exclusion of criminals and the mentally insane from the right to keep and bear arms.

Libel is speech that directly infringes upon the rights of others.

Slander is speech that directly infringes upon the rights of others.

Yelling fire when there is none is speech that directly infringes upon the righst of others.

The act of writing down that someone is a pedophile is not restricted by the constitution. If you then spread that out to a multitude of people in hopes of defaming the other person, then it is.

The act of saying a person is a pedophile is not restricted by the constitution. If you say it in a way that spreads it through multiple people in hopes of defaming the other person, it is.

Saying "Fire" in a crowded theater when there actually is one is not restricted by the constitution. When you say it when there isn't one in order to create a riot, then it is.

Notice, these restrictions comes into play when someones action directly has an effect damaging to someone elses rights.

For the same reason, I think there can be a reasonable restriction on freedom of religion. If you worship Quetzelcoatl, you aren't going to be allowed to cut out someone's heart for a sacrifice. A Kali worshipper can't strangle a sacrifical victim and the druids can't burn a man in a basket at Samhain.

The worship of Quetzelcoatl is not banned, however cutting someones hearts out for sacrifice IS banned because it directly infringes upon someone elses rights.

The worship of Kali is not banned, the strangling of someone is because it infringes upon someone elses rights.

The worship of Samhaim is not banned, the burning of a man is however because it infringes upon someone elses rights.

Notice a pattern here.

For the same reason, I think that sooner or later, we must prohibit Islam in this country.

Notice how your suggestion BREAKS said pattern. Rather than banning the actions that infringes upon others rights you suggest the outright banning of an entire religion.

The Koran and Hadith commands Muslims to convert the world to Islam by peaceful means if possible,

Which is perfectly reasonable and allowable under the constitution just as it is for every other religion that preaches its message in hopes of gaining converts.

by deception and violence if necessary.

Which is illegal and not protected under the constitution. Deception is tricky, for Islam as it is for Christianity, as one must prove there's actual deception there. However violence is point blank and obvious, and if one commits violence in hopes of converting people then they can expect to be arrested.

The options are to pay a dhimmi tax if you are Jewish or Christian, convert to Islam or die.

And the forceful collection of said tax would not be protected under the constitution because it infringes upon others rights, that doesn't mean the religion should be banned.

If their numbers were small, or they were otherwise incapable of making good on their commandment, then it wouldn't be much of an issue. But their numbers continue to grow both in this country and in others and their means of waging war now constitute a clear and present danger to the US.

You don't get to violate the constitution simply because there are lots of them.
 
Don't Christians believe that you must convert to Christianity or suffer eternally in the afterlife?

Jesus tells Christians to "Preach the Gospel (good news) to all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Preach means to tell, it doesn't mean convert. In fact, there is further scripture that lays it out in no uncertain terms. You preach the Gospel, but it is the Holy Spirit that converts someone, or not, not the person doing the preaching. The Bible is very clear that believers are to preach, not convert. And, if the preaching is rejected, to move on. Men preach, God converts. Or doesn't. According to his will. But in no case are believers supposed to do anything to someone who doesn't believe

I wonder why this is so hard for you people.

If you read the Koran, there are constant admonitions smite unbelievers, cut off their heads, noses, etc. Lying to them is encouraged. Plunder them, make them slaves. At best, Christians and Jews are allowed to worship as they please, but they must pay a tax. At worst, they are to be killed.
 
lol....Whether their beliefs are true and Allah is the one and only God or not is ****ing irrelevant. The issue is whether they are a threat or not.

Do we consider them a threat? Yes! Unfortunately, you haven't researched Islam enough to make any sort of educated statement about the ultimate goals or principles of the religion


Your bigotry is not a legal argument ric....

It's the same arguments used during the cold war

"communists want to subvert our way of life and turn this country into a godless utopia, blah blah ****ing blah. So anyone who wants to believe in communism must be destroyed (even though we have freedom of belief)."

As i said before, if you wanna amend the constitution and private property laws to include an antiislam clause then you go ahead.

But as the law stands, there is nothing wrong with this.
 
We don't need to ban Islam. The first amendment allows for religious freedom, and also protects us from religious persecution. Muslims can practice peacefully, and if anyone goes out of line the first amendment will protect all non-muslims. It's that simple. No need to piss on the first amendment because your scared.


1st amendment?!!! 1st amendment?!!! What in the world makes you think that radical Islam gives two wits about what our Bill of Rights says, other than to use dupes in this country to use them against us?


j-mac
 
Notice how your suggestion BREAKS said pattern. Rather than banning the actions that infringes upon others rights you suggest the outright banning of an entire religion.

That is because Islam is NOT a religion anymore than Communism is. Islam is a Political Theocracy hiding as a religion, and it is because of supposed tolerance of religion that they can get away with this ideology of hate.


j-mac
 
Back
Top Bottom