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Immigrant deaths in Arizona desert soaring in July

I agree that cracking down on employers is one part of the solution. Now why in the heck is Obama suing Az over the employer sanction bill passed two years ago?
Supreme Court to Review Arizona Employer Sanctions Law - New America Media

"The U.S. Supreme Court agreed on Monday to review a controversial Arizona statute aimed at imposing severe sanctions on employers who knowingly hire undocumented immigrant workers. This law has already set precedence for similar local legislation being passed in other states across the country.

The Monday hearing was the first time that the highest tribunal in the country considered addressing the constitutionality of a state bill — the Legal Arizona Workers Act (LAWA) — that deals with immigration issues.

LAWA was signed by former Gov. Janet Napolitano, now secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, and took effect on Jan.1, 2008. It was challenged by a coalition of business groups, but it didn't get as much national attention as the passage in April of SB 1070, which will allow law enforcement to arrest and detain undocumented immigrants in Arizona."

It seems evertime a State like Arizona tries do improve the situation to reduce "illegals", this administration steps in as says "No". If the Feds would do the job, the State would not have to step in. This has been building over many adminstrations. It seems Obama just does not get it.

IMO we cannot totally seal our borders. We can take steps to reduce the numbers crossing illegally everyday. More boots on the ground, barriers in certain locations, going after employers, stop rendering assistance to those who cross the desert and get in trouble, etc.

and yes, I agree we need immigration reform to allow for workers in support to certain business that require it. I will take acception to Amercans won't do the work. I for one have worked on farms in my younger days as a field hand. I also worked for a tree service. If that is what you need to feed yourself, get off you axx and get to work. There is no insult to do manual labor jobs.

Umm, since when did President Obama become a member of the Supreme Court? Also notice that the law was challenged by business groups, you know, the people who like to HIRE illegals. Since when did business groups become part of the Federal government?
 
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Umm, since when did President Obama become a member of the Supreme Court? Also notice that the law was challenged by business groups, you know, the people who like to HIRE illegals. Since when did business groups become part of the Federal government?

Maybe you misunderstood my post. AZ has a law that can strip business license from those who hire illegals. Obama admistration has challenged the Az law. The SC has agreed to hear the case. Lower federal courts have upheld AZ law. My post was to address the comment that the govt. should go after business that hire illegals. Hence my question, why is Obama admistration
challenging Az law that does just that, penalizes employers.

Yes the orginal challenge was by business groups. However, "
The federal government has asked the Supreme Court to review Arizona's employer-sanctions law, and a decision could have a ripple effect on similar laws across the country as well as on the state's controversial new immigration law.

Read more: Supreme Court asked to review Arizona employer sanctions law

I should have used a more clear first link. A little more search shows its the Feds that asked for the SC review. Since Holder works for Obama, my point stands.

Supreme Court asked to review Arizona employer sanctions law
 
I'm guessing it's a purely Constitutional issue. I could imagine the Federal government doesn't want to set a precedent that states can decide how to enforce a Federal law. It's bogus, though.
 
I love the illegal immigration debate because it is giving us all a clear example of how much the government favors business over the welfare of the nation as a whole. There have been $6 million in fines so far for companies that are harboring illegals. 6 measly million, for companies that have annual profits in the tens of billions? For them that is like paying a penny.

The government will continue to spin it like it's the fault of the individuals, like it's the fault of immigrants for wanting to cross the desert and risk everything in order to live better lives; but actually, the government is highly reluctant to address the root, which is business. NAFTA was about business. It created the inequities that are driving illegals into your country. The government is reluctant to heavily fine corporations that are facilitating employment for illegals.

I mean, the Obama admin has a more humanitarian perspective on the situation, but it's not like they are really cracking down. The government fines a few companies to set a few examples and to ease public relations, but what is really happening in the grand scheme to those companies? Nothing. The Bush admin behaved the same way. The whole immigration debate rested upon the illegals themselves, and the Minute Men phenomenon at the border. Why were the minute men not equally as outraged at the companies? Where were the massive protests outside of the doors of those corporate headquarters?

The essence of this debate is stooped up to its eyeballs in hypocrisy. If you want to address the source, then you go to the source: the businesses. You are never going to be able to fully secure a desert border without investing huge amounts of money and resources. It is far, far simpler to target business. But that is something the government never wants to do.

Business reigns supreme.
 
The illegals are not invaders. Industry here in the good ole' USA rolled out the red carpet for them by hiring them, which is against the law. I see plenty of outrage against the illegals, but where in the hell is the outrage against the employers who are breaking the law, which is allowing the illegals to come here in the first place?

I do not think anyone us suggesting that that nothing be done about the scum who hire illegals. I have suggested many times that they should be treated no different than any other criminal who profits and or uses their funds for illegal activities by making them subject to prison time and assets seizure forfeiture laws just like drug dealers,mobsters and other criminals are. When it comes to illegal immigration I see that it takes two to tango, one is a trespasser/invader and as you said the other is rolling out the red carpet for the invader\trespasser. Both should be deterred and both should be punished when caught. The fact that those hire illegals are American citizens helping to make the problem worse should receive a harsher punishment.
 
I'm guessing it's a purely Constitutional issue. I could imagine the Federal government doesn't want to set a precedent that states can decide how to enforce a Federal law. It's bogus, though.

Well, actually, I have just got done reading the Arizona law, and it's scope is very narrow. It says that businesses in Arizona that knowingly hire illegals can have their licenses to do business stripped from them. In that context, there is nothing unconstitutional about the Arizona law. Unlike the other law, which can only be enforced by profiling, this law is very specific, and is a good one. Furthermore, I believe that the Arizona law, in regard to employment of illegals, can be used as a template by other states, if they wish to do the same. There is no profiling here either, since the criminal employers would be caught through standard "audits". However, there is a "gotcha" here, in that "knowingly" is very subjective, and could provide ammunition to defense attorneys. But if they don't provide proof that they I-9'd an employee before he or she started work there, that shows the motive. But, since the I-9 is a Federal form, things could get a little sticky in regard to jurisdiction.

Other than that, I like it, and I think it will pass muster in the courts.

In regard to crossing itself, troops on the border would stop that.
 
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OH I know fully well what type of jobs the illegals take, but that is not the point. American's refuse to do the jobs because either they are lazy or the wage is too low. Now the first one cant be changed easily but the second one can be changed. But in principle this is a whole other debate.

And it does not change the fact that the these jobs can be done by LEGAL workers at minimum wage, but the companies and private persons exploit the fact that they are illegals to pay them less than minimum wage often and so on. Make the price for getting caught employing an illegal so high, that the companies cant afford doing so, then the illegals will stop coming.

The problem with the minimum wage is that it's a false floor on the value of labor which sets a minimum on prices of goods. Since the prices of goods and the minimum wage combined make it impossible to live off of. Every time the minimum wage went up so did the prices of goods. It didn't help that inflation, the hidden tax on the poor and middle class, also played a major role in the pricing of goods.

Pullleeeze. The pay is terrible because they can hire pseudo-slaves. If we're willing to pay more for our green beans, there'll be plenty of Americans to take those jobs.

You and everybody else with half a brain. (No offense meant.) Now....why aren't we doing that? Either side of the aisle?

I can agree with that.

Really? Here in Texas, they have taken about 2/3 of the construction jobs.

The reason being is that most Americans do not want to work in the high heat of Texas or anywhere else. Employers need to find a source of labor that will be willing to work in those conditions.
 
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The illegals are not invaders. Industry here in the good ole' USA rolled out the red carpet for them by hiring them, which is against the law. I see plenty of outrage against the illegals, but where in the hell is the outrage against the employers who are breaking the law, which is allowing the illegals to come here in the first place?

Have you ever seen the show called Bait Car?

A car is left on the street with the keys in it and if somebody steals it they get arrested.

What you just said is that the police are responsible for the theft for leaving the keys in the car and the criminal that stole the car has no responsibility in the transaction.

How does that make any sense?

You think business is allowing the illegals to come to the US?

How do you figure that?
 
The reason being is that most Americans do not want to work in the high heat of Texas or anywhere else. Employers need to find a source of labor that will be willing to work in those conditions.

Do you really think Americans are that lazy to not want to work because it is too hot? That is laughable.

I challenge you to go try to hire any day workers. They do not work for peanuts.

They are not coming over the border to work for little money. They know the construction jobs are out there that have a high pay rate, and yes those are jobs that unemployeed americans can and want to do.
 
Maybe you misunderstood my post. AZ has a law that can strip business license from those who hire illegals. Obama admistration has challenged the Az law. The SC has agreed to hear the case. Lower federal courts have upheld AZ law. My post was to address the comment that the govt. should go after business that hire illegals. Hence my question, why is Obama admistration
challenging Az law that does just that, penalizes employers.

Yes the orginal challenge was by business groups. However, "
The federal government has asked the Supreme Court to review Arizona's employer-sanctions law, and a decision could have a ripple effect on similar laws across the country as well as on the state's controversial new immigration law.

Read more: Supreme Court asked to review Arizona employer sanctions law

I should have used a more clear first link. A little more search shows its the Feds that asked for the SC review. Since Holder works for Obama, my point stands.

Supreme Court asked to review Arizona employer sanctions law

Since AB 1070 make it illegal for anyone who's in the United States illegally to be in Arizona, the law allowing Arizona to strip businesses of their license if they hire illegals has a proper background.

So far, Arizona is the American state, the United States government is the anti-American government.
 
The reason being is that most Americans do not want to work in the high heat of Texas or anywhere else. Employers need to find a source of labor that will be willing to work in those conditions.


Why do you people always forget the important part?

Some Americans don't want to work in the heat FOR THE WAGES OFFERED.

Which means the employer has to offer a higher wage, not turn around and break the law by hiring criminals from Mexico.

If we want more Americans to have the urge to work in the heat of Texas, all we need to do is stop subsidizing indolence. Cancel all unconstitutional entitlement scams, including FDR's and Johnson's welfare scams. There'll be lots of people out lookin' for work in the fields then.
 
I'm guessing it's a purely Constitutional issue. I could imagine the Federal government doesn't want to set a precedent that states can decide how to enforce a Federal law. It's bogus, though.

Got nothing to do with it. The established powers don't want the peons at the state level rocking the boat. They're thinking if Arizona gets away with it, 48 other states, excludin California, are going to want to try it. And that would make all those entrenched politicians look bad, not to mention the loss of bribe money.

So the racist Holder Justice Department is going to go after Arizona with every frivolous cockamamie idea Obama and Gang can think up.
 
Do you really think Americans are that lazy to not want to work because it is too hot? That is laughable.

I challenge you to go try to hire any day workers. They do not work for peanuts.

They are not coming over the border to work for little money. They know the construction jobs are out there that have a high pay rate, and yes those are jobs that unemployeed americans can and want to do.

Yes, I do think that. This is why the bulk of migrant farm workers are of latino descent in the southwest and California. They are willing to do the work where the majority of Americans would not. Americans would rather take a government hand out then perform manual labor such as working out in the fields.

When I was a kid, I worked for one of the major seed companies doing roguing and I was paid minimum wage to be out in the fields no matter the weather conditions. I worked from dawn till dusk and it was hard, back breaking work. To this day, labor such as this is still minimum wage with more and more of the workforce being replaced by migrant farm workers. I challenge you to work a summer out in the fields and let me know if the pay is worth the amount of manual labor you have to expend.

They come over the border to work for any type of money no matter how much or how little. The bulk of their money goes back to their families in Mexico. When I was much, much younger, I've known illegals that 10-12 of them share an apartment just so they can send the money home. Check the exchange rate of dollars to pesos sometime. I just checked it and for 1 USD=12.81 Pesos. With the standard of living far lower in Mexico than in the US, the minimum/below minimum wage US jobs will allow a family to live comfortably for an entire year in Mexico. The entire point of all this is that these illegals aren't here to make a living here in the US, but to make a living for their families still in Mexico.
 
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Dying in the heat - coming here illegally or legally shouldn't be a death sentence.


If they don't want to die in the desert, they should stay home.

Their body, their choice, they're lucky I'm not allowed to plant land mines in the desert for them.
 
Yes, I do think that. This is why the bulk of migrant farm workers are of latino descent in the southwest and California. They are willing to do the work where the majority of Americans would not. Americans would rather take a government hand out then perform manual labor such as working out in the fields.

When I was a kid, I worked for one of the major seed companies doing roguing and I was paid minimum wage to be out in the fields no matter the weather conditions. I worked from dawn till dusk and it was hard, back breaking work. To this day, labor such as this is still minimum wage with more and more of the workforce being replaced by migrant farm workers. I challenge you to work a summer out in the fields and let me know if the pay is worth the amount of manual labor you have to expend.

They come over the border to work for any type of money no matter how much or how little. The bulk of their money goes back to their families in Mexico. When I was much, much younger, I've known illegals that 10-12 of them share an apartment just so they can send the money home. Check the exchange rate of dollars to pesos sometime. I just checked it and for 1 USD=12.81 Pesos. With the standard of living far lower in Mexico than in the US, the minimum/below minimum wage US jobs will allow a family to live comfortably for an entire year in Mexico. The entire point of all this is that these illegals aren't here to make a living here in the US, but to make a living for their families still in Mexico.

No reason why that work shouldn't be minimum wage work. It requires no special skills.

No reason why anyone in American is being offered welfare money.

Turn off the public welfare cow, and see how many Americans won't take the farm jobs currently held by the Invaders.

If someone can't get their crops in using local native labor for the wages offered, basic market economics say they have to raise their wages to entice more workers to sign up.

No reason the growers should be allowed to circumvent basic market rules by side stepping the native labor force. If they can't remain profitable by paying the needed wages to local talent, they don't really have to stay in business. Not when the alternative is subsidizing the Invasion of the United States by a foreign country.
 
Yes, I do think that. This is why the bulk of migrant farm workers are of latino descent in the southwest and California. They are willing to do the work where the majority of Americans would not. Americans would rather take a government hand out then perform manual labor such as working out in the fields.

When I was a kid, I worked for one of the major seed companies doing roguing and I was paid minimum wage to be out in the fields no matter the weather conditions. I worked from dawn till dusk and it was hard, back breaking work. To this day, labor such as this is still minimum wage with more and more of the workforce being replaced by migrant farm workers. I challenge you to work a summer out in the fields and let me know if the pay is worth the amount of manual labor you have to expend.

They come over the border to work for any type of money no matter how much or how little. The bulk of their money goes back to their families in Mexico. When I was much, much younger, I've known illegals that 10-12 of them share an apartment just so they can send the money home. Check the exchange rate of dollars to pesos sometime. I just checked it and for 1 USD=12.81 Pesos. With the standard of living far lower in Mexico than in the US, the minimum/below minimum wage US jobs will allow a family to live comfortably for an entire year in Mexico. The entire point of all this is that these illegals aren't here to make a living here in the US, but to make a living for their families still in Mexico.

You commented on construction jobs which is what I was answering then you switched to field work.

You cannot compare the two.

Construction jobs do not pay minimum wage.

The things you need to live are not any cheaper in Mexico, where I live right now, than in the US.

Gasoline is 8.36 pesos per liter which works out to $2.54 per gallon for regular.

Food in a super market costs the same or more than the US, shipping costs make the difference.

Housing costs are alot less, and even though car insurance is required virtually nobody has it.

The family has to pay for everything for the child to go to school including paying the school. The govt pays nothing.

What you have is, generally speaking, the losers going across the border. You do not have lawyers or engineers crossing the border to work in the US.

After all is said and done they will make the same money here for their family and they will be with their kids but since they are losers, they don't understand simple mathamaticas.

IF you are going to talk about contruction jobs that is fine but you cannot compare construction jobs to field work.
 
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You commented on construction jobs which is what I was answering then you switched to field work.

You cannot compare the two.

Construction jobs do not pay minimum wage.

The things you need to live are not any cheaper in Mexico, where I live right now, than in the US.

Gasoline is 8.36 pesos per liter which works out to $2.54 per gallon for regular.

Food in a super market costs the same or more than the US, shipping costs make the difference.

Housing costs are alot less, and even though car insurance is required virtually nobody has it.

The family has to pay for everything for the child to go to school including paying the school. The govt pays nothing.

What you have is, generally speaking, the losers going across the border. You do not have lawyers or engineers crossing the border to work in the US.

After all is said and done they will make the same money here for their family and they will be with their kids but since they are losers, they don't understand simple mathamaticas.

IF you are going to a¿talk about contruction jobs that i fine but you cannot compare construction jobs to field work.

Except that with the construction jobs, the working conditions are the same, and the people doing the hiring can hire illegals far less than they can for American workers. They also don't have to pay any of the benefits like social security, medicare, etc... to the government when it's a cash only transaction. There's no paper trail to follow.
 
Have you ever seen the show called Bait Car?

A car is left on the street with the keys in it and if somebody steals it they get arrested.

What you just said is that the police are responsible for the theft for leaving the keys in the car and the criminal that stole the car has no responsibility in the transaction.

How does that make any sense?

You think business is allowing the illegals to come to the US?

How do you figure that?

I'll ignore your straw man, and respond directly to what I bolded. Without jobs, illegals make no living and have no choice but to go back. It is demand from employers that drives the market in the illegal alien supply. Kill the demand, and the supply will simply dry up. You kill the demand by jailing those employers who hire illegal aliens, which by the way, is a criminal act, and the law that makes it a criminal act needs to be strictly enforced.
 
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If they don't want to die in the desert, they should stay home.

Their body, their choice, they're lucky I'm not allowed to plant land mines in the desert for them.

Oh yeah - that's mature and responsible, caring for others.
:shrug:

They are people, you know . . . I support measures to slow, stop or hinder illegal immigration - but 'death by sun' isn't on the list.

It's ok to *care* about people - caring doesn't make you less of a person. In fact, just the opposite.
 
Apparently, some here don't give a **** that the real perpetrator or instigator is, the Mexican gov

The Mexican government gives away gps devices to illegals to help them cross the border. Their military supports smuggling and crosses our border, shoots at LEOs on our soil, but we need to be nicer to their citizens who want to cross, the desert... enter illegally and live off our system. lol

Ironically, the kindness of our now pussified society enables these horrific scenes to multiply
 
Ironically, the kindness of our now pussified society enables these horrific scenes to multiply

Hmm - you know that we've had illegals coming into our country since the inception of our country? I'm sure this isn't a *new* problem. . . and it has *been* a problem no matter how we've approached the issue and how we've tried to deal with it.

Have we been pussified since the beginning? How are we suppose to, then, grow some of what we never had?

If we give billions away each year in humanitarian aid . . . and assist another country with their own war effort . . . and save people worldwide from starvation. . . . then why is it so wrong to try to keep some people *in our country, on our soil* from dying?
 
He wouldn't sue them unless he and his legal council saw rightful violations of the consitution concerning this law. He's a constiutional professor and lawyer, he's probably right and the courts will decide. You snicker now but trust me he's right on this issue and will win in court.

How much you want to bet that Obama has not read either Az law in full? How much you want to bet that when the SC decides this case it will be a split/divided court? If the ruling comes out split, does that mean the ones who voted for the AZ law are wrong? Or maybe its just different interpretations.
I'm not snickering, I just believe the current administration is wrong
 
... Your 24 style scenarios don't exist in real life. Get over it. The best part about it is you make a thread on these people under such false pretenses...

Hate to break the bad news to you, but 24 style terror attacks have happened on our soil.

WTC bombing in 1993.
Terrorist seeking to blow up the Seattle Space Needle 2000.
WTC attacks in 2001, Pentagon and what many believed to be a fourth plane headed for the Capitol.
LA Attacks stopped via the use of enhanced interrogation aka waterboarding.

That is a short list; of what we know. Of course there are other terror attacks, like the idiot who shot up troops, the underwear idiot, the shoe-bomb idiot and other idiots targeting Americans of westerners in foreign countries.

As for the illegals dying, it's a shame, and they should be strongly discouraged from coming. First on that list is a clear message from Obi that we won't tolerate illegal invaders. Unfortunately, he has sent the wrong message.

Another in a litany of reasons to vote him and his compatriots sorry asses out of office.

.
 
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Should we get a GOP president in 2012, the illegal issue will be thrown to the back burner. Ignored, swept under the rug. It just plain won't be a problem anymore. That's history folks.

We need to allow enough Mexicans in to staff the Mexican restaurants. Otherwise, I might starve.
 
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