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Comparative photos of Mount Everest 'confirm ice loss'

The History of Greenland - ExploreNorth

Damn those Vikings and their SUV's.

Ahh yes, the old "mideval warm period" trope. Some key words are missing from that article:
The climate at this time was very warm in Northern Europe, much warmer than it is today.
When you run the temperature reconstruction using the whole planet, you get a temperature cooler than today. The mideval warm period was a regional effect.

Do you drive a car? Live in a house? Buy your food at the store? Spend time posting on debate forums?

Practice what you preach before you preach it.

Oh hey, another trope that doesn't actually address the science. Nobody has argued that we stop using fossil fuels cold turkey and revert ourselves to the stone age.
 
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And amazingly things like asteroids hitting the Earth, volcanoes and quite possibly human activity can affect the climate.

You forgot the Sun....

GOODBYE, GLOBAL WARMING
Deepest Solar Minimum in Nearly a Century
by Gregory Murphy and Laurence Hecht
The authors are editors of 21st Century Science & Technology magazine.
[PDF version of this article]
April 9, 2009—A continued low in solar activity, as measured by the appearance of irregularities on the Sun's surface known as sunspots, may be responsible for the recent phase of cooling experienced in many parts of the Northern Hemisphere. In the opinion of many specialists, the downturn in solar activity likely marks the beginning of a prolonged cooling period.
The expected cooling will produce many hardships for a human population already stressed by a prolonged downturn in global physical-economic productive capability. But the bright side may be that such bloated windbags as Al Gore and his leaner companion James Hansen, who have led Royal Consort Prince Philip's genocidal global warming promotion, will finally be silenced.
For students of the Sun, the length of the solar cycle, which lasts an average of 11 years but may go longer or shorter, has proven the best historical indicator of short-term climate. At the ends of these solar cycles, sunspot activity first declines, and then picks up markedly, indicating the beginning of a new cycle. The precise relationship between the sunspots, which are thought to be determined by magnetic activity within the Sun, and the energy output of the Sun, is not known. However, long-term studies of the historical record have shown that when the minima in sunspot activity extend beyond the average 11 years, significant declines in temperatures on Earth are experienced. Regular records of sunspot activity go back to the 17th Century.

Goodbye, Global Warming: Deepest Solar Minimum in Nearly a Century
 
Ahh yes, the old "mideval warm period" trope. Some key words are missing from that article:
The climate at this time was very warm in Northern Europe, much warmer than it is today.
When you run the temperature reconstruction using the whole planet, you get a temperature cooler than today. The mideval warm period was a regional effect.

You don't bother reading links that refute you, do you? Here..... try again.

temperature
 

Yes, we're well aware that the sun cycles up and down. It's easily measured and calculated for. What the skeptics don't tell you is that while the sun's long-term trend has been completely flat since 1950, temperature has continued to rise during that period. Or that there have been periods where the sun was in the downward side of the 11-year cycle yet temperature rose.
 
Yes, we're well aware that the sun cycles up and down. It's easily measured and calculated for. What the skeptics don't tell you is that while the sun's long-term trend has been completely flat since 1950, temperature has continued to rise during that period. Or that there have been periods where the sun was in the downward side of the 11-year cycle yet temperature rose.

One thing a person can count on with you..... you never link anythink to back up your bull ****.
 
You don't bother reading links that refute you, do you? Here..... try again.

temperature

That doesn't refute anything. "Temperature changed before man existed" does not mean that man is not capable of affecting temperatures. There are several major forcings that affect the earth's overall temperature.

And of all those major changes in the earth's history, are you aware that the current trend is vastly faster than what we saw before?
The Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum was described as a "drastic" event, when temperature changed 6C over 20,000 years. At our current rate, we'd see that in less than 500 years.

One thing a person can count on with you..... you never link anythink to back up your bull ****.

Because I've done it too many times in the Environmental forum, I get lazy.

Here, because you like to spam links:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?f=taxonomy
See if any of the arguments you have show up on here!
 
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There have been speculations about an association between the solar cycle length and Earth's climate, however, the solar cycle length analysis does not follow Earth's global mean surface temperature. A further comparison with the monthly sunspot number, cosmic galactic rays and 10.7 cm absolute radio flux since 1950 gives no indication of a systematic trend in the level of solar activity that can explain the most recent global warming.

A review of the solar cycle length estimates
 
Well, first of all, in a scientific discussion the public's opinion is not particularly important.
This is not merely a scientific discussion; it has huge implications for public policy. Public sentiment is VERY important and is why we can discuss this issue on DebatePolitics and don't have to go to DebateAtmosphericScience.

Rather than addressing the science, you've just hedged your bets by making an insinuation that climate scientists //who are skeptics// are paid to do climate science //by oil companies//, and therefore can't be trusted. That's not an argument, that's plugging your ears and saying "LALALA CANT HEAR YOU." You've just pre-judged the discussion as being already won because the other side doesn't have credibility, and yet you use the word "debate."
You were saying?? ;)

To suggest that scientists are unreliable because they're paid to do science is ludicrous.
It's not ludicrous. If you've actually been involved in doing science for any amount of time, the influence of government is quite clear. Most science depends on government funding. Early careers live or die by whether or not a young researcher is able to write a successful grant proposal. Opportunities for purely basic research are very rare and extremely competitive. If there's a big pool of money sitting around to investigate human causes of warming - guess what...

On a more general note... the amount of waste is staggering when new appropriations come in and researchers flock to whatever problem politicians have deemed most exigent - there is good science that results, but so much of what gets funded is not.

I wrote a post on some of the basic science behind the theory, but nobody reads the environment forum so I'm going to blatantly plug my own writing here.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/envir...-some-basic-empirical-evidence-favor-agw.html
I've done enough studying in my own area of expertise to know that I can't possibly claim to be knowledgeable in another's area without years of dedicated study. That you "poke around google looking for someone to respond to that skeptic's arguments" tells me you don't add much to the scientific debate, either.

My problems with the GW issue have less to do with the actual science that goes into it, and more about how it is packaged and sold. See for example the last IPCC report 'for policymakers'.
 
Oh, so you're not disputing the science. Ok then.
If it takes me less than five minutes on google to find proof that a skeptic's argument is fundamentally flawed or outright falsified, they aren't an expert.

Like, you know, when they alter a NASA temperature chart and leave the NASA logo on it, making it easy to compare with NASA's actual data to find the falsification.
See: The Great Global Warming Swindle.
 
Do you drive a car? Live in a house? Buy your food at the store? Spend time posting on debate forums?

Practice what you preach before you preach it.

That's your rebuttal? Trying to paint me as a hypocrite for being born into a system that I didn't create? Individuals are part of the problem, but they are not the biggest part. The biggest part is industry. It's kind of like how they encourage us to recycle, reduce, reuse, even though all three of those only take place at the very end of the consumer chain. There is next to nothing that focuses on the production, shipping, and marketing side. It's basically all our fault, as consumers, that the industry owners don't give a toss.

Everyone is responsible, but some are much more responsible than others. And just for the record, no I don't drive, no I don't purchase foods that were shipped from 1000km away; I live in a house that is supplemented with solar power; we don't use A/C. Basically I have reduced my life in all the ways I can right now. Can you say the same?
 
If it takes me less than five minutes on google to find proof that a skeptic's argument is fundamentally flawed or outright falsified, they aren't an expert.
...because everyone knows that experts never make flawed arguments :lol:
 
I regret not being well enough to go to at least the first base camp on Mt. Everest, but seeing it off in the distance was enough.

I am jealous. That is one place I definately want to visit and see in my life.

When I was in Nepal, a lot of people told me about how the climate of the nation was changing for the worst. The summer I was there, the Northern rains never came and so an entire rice crop died, and it never happened on that scale before. They were in the process of applying for food aid from the UN. In the South, where it is normally dry, they had flooding and a cholera epidemic.

Climate is changing in many places -- many for the worse, but some for the better. I imagine Greenland, Siberia and northern Canada would like a little warming. Seriously, here in Taiwan we seem to be getting more sustained rainy seasons and then more heat and humidity after the rainy season is over...

The world's valley civilizations, like India (the Indus), China (the Yangze), and Egypt (the Nile) are all at risk of losing major water resources once their nations' glaciers completely melt, and they are melting quite rapidly. In the West we are still having our quaint little discussions about whether or not climate change is happening but in those nations the governments are already well aware of future water resource shortages. Actually, the U.S. government is also beginning to encroach more and more into the Great Lakes because of dwindling resources in other areas.

Other places as well. In South America, the glaciers are melting at an alarming rate.

For the record, the Chinese civilization was based on the Yellow/Wei River Valley -- not the Yangtze (Chang) River

I really do believe that future wars will be fought over things like water, not oil.

You are not the only one to hold this belief. Glad I live in a relatively water-rich country...
 
Climate is changing in many places -- many for the worse, but some for the better. I imagine Greenland, Siberia and northern Canada would like a little warming. Seriously, here in Taiwan we seem to be getting more sustained rainy seasons and then more heat and humidity after the rainy season is over...

Our summer has been almost non-existent in the pacific northwest. Our winter lasted until late June... cloudy skies the whole time, and rains. Pretty much everywhere I've traveled in the past 5 years has yielded some info about climate change to me... mostly from the locals.

For the record, the Chinese civilization was based on the Yellow/Wei River Valley -- not the Yangtze (Chang) River

Thanks for that correction. After I wrote the words I was wondering if I was remembering it correctly!

You are not the only one to hold this belief. Glad I live in a relatively water-rich country...

Ditto that. Although it's a bit unnerving to be next door to the U.S. who could just take what it wants at any moment. I mean, it is kind of doing so anyway under the guise of NAFTA, but it wants to probe deeper into Canada to access the other water rich areas. It's a huge debate happening right now behind closed doors and not many in the public are aware. I think it's being kept on the down low for obvious reasons.
 
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BBC News - Comparative photos of Mount Everest 'confirm ice loss'

The issue here is, we are in July, and the world over is far warmer due to the natural cycle of the seasons (Northern hemisphere regions anyway).

The article claims repeatedly the photos where taken in the exact same place George Mallory took the photos in 1921 but fails to mention that George went in June, a naturally cooler month than July, or if this year is on average warmer than 1921 for whatever natural/coincidential anomalie.

Wow. That's impressive.

Since global climate changes are natural and cyclical, it's going to be fun watching Asia squabble for water when the ice is all gone.

I think I'll go fill up my 10 mpg gallon cargo van and go for a joy ride.
 
It is the height of human conceit to think we have anything to do with climate change, and the height of stupidity to think we could do anything about it. It's natural, and it will happen time and again.

you are so right! Holes in the ozone occur naturally all the time!
 
No, it is the height of human conceit to think that we can do whatever we want and the earth will just adapt; it is the height of human conceit to think that we can continually exceed the limits of the earth's natural bounty each year and expect the system to recover; it is the height of human conceit to think that we ourselves are immune from the effects of our own polluting.

Even if the American right wants to continue to water down the climate change debate in order to subjectify it for political reasons, there are plenty of other valid, proven reasons to reduce the output of human pollution. Never before in human history has cancer, heart disease, diabetes, genetic disorders, infertility, and mental illness been as high as it is now.

One in three people develop heart disease or stroke in their lifetimes and the age bracket is becoming younger each year; one in four will get cancer. How long will we wait before we decide to change our lifestyle of excess? When it's one in two? Or every person?

Honestly. How long are the apologists and deniers going to keep spinning the propaganda that things are going to be ok? They're not. The industrial revolution is only a couple of hundred years in the making, and the consumer era is about 50 years in the making. Fossil fuel use has the same shelf life. Our entire paradigm of how we think things should operate is going to come crashing down, the only thing we have a choice in is whether the transition is smooth or if it will be traumatic.

Outside of the fact that carbon dioxide isn't pollution, you're pacing your rant just fine.

However, one in four people now live long enough, thanks to modern technology that prevents them from starving to death or dying of malnutrition or pneumonia or many many other deadly but presently treatable diseases, that they have the chance to live long enough to die from cancer.

Given the choice, most people gladly accept living to 70 and dying of cancer over catching pneumonia or malaria and dying in childhood.

One of the reasons fewer people die of pneumonia is that they've been able to burn fossil fuels to keep their homes warm. If global warming means they don't have to burn as much fuel to stay warm, who's going to be crazy enough to complain about that?
 
Outside of the fact that carbon dioxide isn't pollution, you're pacing your rant just fine.

You please quote where I said ANYTHING about carbon dioxide? I didn't think so. Next time don't put words in my mouth by fabricating an argument I never even made.

However, one in four people now live long enough, thanks to modern technology that prevents them from starving to death or dying of malnutrition or pneumonia or many many other deadly but presently treatable diseases, that they have the chance to live long enough to die from cancer.

Given the choice, most people gladly accept living to 70 and dying of cancer over catching pneumonia or malaria and dying in childhood.

I'm not saying that modern advances haven't made worthy progress with curing diseases that have plagued our nations for thousands of years, but it's myopic to say that only the elderly have to worry about cancer. Cancer was considered an illness of the elderly a couple of centuries ago. Now children are born with cancer. More and more young adults are developing cancers, especially reproductive ones. Testicular cancer is the biggest thread to men in their 20's and 30's; breast and cervical cancer for women. Clearly our lifestyle is not healthy.

We have cured the virulent diseases for the most part, only to replace them with other diseases of excess.

One of the reasons fewer people die of pneumonia is that they've been able to burn fossil fuels to keep their homes warm. If global warming means they don't have to burn as much fuel to stay warm, who's going to be crazy enough to complain about that?

What a red herring. No one is suggesting that we return to the stone ages in order to save the environment. I think the most practical ideas that are on the table involve supplementing fossil fuel energy with green energy resources. They might lack the capacity to completely replace fossil fuels but we can still reduce the impact to our human health. I mean, people are busy fighting over the government controling the world because of global warming debates, but there are very real human health impacts taking place due to pollution that has been known for half a century now.

Chicago and New York City have some of the highest respiratory infection rates in North America, and TB is making a come back. Cold weakens your lungs. So does pollution. Childhood asthma rates are the highest in recorded history, and the rates continue to rise. Pollution also affects food and water quality, cancer rates, heart disease rates, our natural resources, etc.
 
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You please quote where I said ANYTHING about carbon dioxide? I didn't think so. Next time don't put words in my mouth by fabricating an argument I never even made.

It's a thread on "global warming".

Nut cases who worry about natural cycles and like to pretend they're man-made also believe that CO2 is a "pollutant".

Silly of them, but no sillier than believing that human activity can alter an entire global ecology.

Tell us, oh Guru of things Gore, what caused end of the turn around from the Little Ice Age?


I'm not saying that modern advances haven't made worthy progress with curing diseases that have plagued our nations for thousands of years, but it's myopic to say that only the elderly have to worry about cancer. Cancer was considered an illness of the elderly a couple of centuries ago. Now children are born with cancer.

No, it's not. When one burbles up a meaningless "one in four will blah blah blah" for a whoe population, one is forced to consider the implications and bases for such claims.

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

More and more young adults are developing cancers, especially reproductive ones. Testicular cancer is the biggest thread to men in their 20's and 30's; breast and cervical cancer for women. Clearly our lifestyle is not healthy.

Clearly our young people have to get off their fat asses playing video games and drinking coke, and get outside playing football, fightig, and learning how to be independent, self-reliant, and free. And again, the numbers become problematic. There's something like three times as many people alive now than there were a hundred years ago. So when you say "there's more cases of rot your balls off" today, is that in real terms, or is it statistically adjusted to account for the number of young that no longer die of measles and reubella and polio and pertussis? What is the effect of simply from the urbanization of society, when there were finally more people living in cities than on the farms (thanks, of course, to the technological society that some disapprove of...)

Certain kinds of people like to freak out over microwatt exposures to cell telephone usage. Good thing we never tell them about the beta radiation coming from old fashioned TV CRT screens.

And, oh by the way. You're citing alleged statistics pertinent to a specific animal species, who's living in it's own filth. You're failing to show that human activity has any significant impact on global climate.



We have cured the virulent diseases for the most part, only to replace them with other diseases of excess.

Well, yes, that's what happens.

People don't live forever. They have to die of SOMETHING. So today, more people die of cancer than pneumonia. And what were previously minor causes, become significant once the biggest killers of the past are controlled. (See anyone die of smallpox recently?)

What a red herring. No one is suggesting that we return to the stone ages in order to save the environment. I think the most practical ideas that are on the table involve supplementing fossil fuel energy with green energy resources. They might lack the capacity to completely replace fossil fuels but we can still reduce the impact to our human health. I mean, people are busy fighting over the government controling the world because of global warming debates, but there are very real human health impacts taking place due to pollution that has been known for half a century now.

Chicago and New York City have some of the highest respiratory infection rates in North America, and TB is making a come back. Cold weakens your lungs. So does pollution. Childhood asthma rates are the highest in recorded history, and the rates continue to rise. Pollution also affects food and water quality, cancer rates, heart disease rates, our natural resources, etc.

And why is TB making a comeback? Ain't got NOTHING to do with the urban environment, no, not at all. It has everything to do with the fact that evolution never stops.

Fact of the matter is that SOME anti-pollution arguments are good and valid, and NO anti-pollution argument has an business being on a thread focused on global warming, because pollution isn't affecting global climate.

Another fact, since this is a thread on global warming, is that the last major glacial interstadial was eventually warmer the current one is at present, the sea levels were sigificantly higher, and the planet didn't have any humans runs fossil fueled industries to drive it. Our knowledge of climate is simply inadequate to explain that.

Our knowledge of climate is inadequate to explain why the Little Ice Age stopped. Clearly event was not driven by human activity, and since we do not know the processes that started the current warming trend, we're hard put to claim their stopped, and thus we're also unable to say how much, if any at all, human activity has played in recent short-term warming and cooling trends.

The one thing we do know, with certainty, is that human activity cannot so degrade climate that life, including human life, becomes impossible.
 
Fact of the matter is that SOME anti-pollution arguments are good and valid, and NO anti-pollution argument has an business being on a thread focused on global warming, because pollution isn't affecting global climate.
CO2, Methane, and CFC's all are greenhouse gases. Sulfur dioxide actually has a cooling effect because it reflects some sunlight back out into space, so ironically our cutting back on those emissions accelerated (very, very slightly) the current warming trend. (although obviously the reduction in acid rain is more important)

Another fact, since this is a thread on global warming, is that the last major glacial interstadial was eventually warmer the current one is at present, the sea levels were sigificantly higher, and the planet didn't have any humans runs fossil fueled industries to drive it. Our knowledge of climate is simply inadequate to explain that.
This statement is incorrect. Greenhouse gases are not the only climate forcing that we know about. The earth's orbital mechanics change slightly in a very regular pattern, causing slight differences in the amount of sunlight the earth receives, changing temperature. Continental configuration changes the earth's temperature as land and sea reflect heat differently. (although obviously this occurs on a longer scale) The sun's output also changes over time and is measurable. Volcanic activity can affect climate, especially during large-scale eruptions.

Our knowledge of climate is inadequate to explain why the Little Ice Age stopped. Clearly event was not driven by human activity, and since we do not know the processes that started the current warming trend, we're hard put to claim their stopped, and thus we're also unable to say how much, if any at all, human activity has played in recent short-term warming and cooling trends.
The little ice age does not appear to be a global event, as the timing of glacial maximums varies from region to region. It was also not particularly powerful, as it ends up being less than 1C change over several centuries.


The current warming trend's start coincides with the industrial revolution.

The one thing we do know, with certainty, is that human activity cannot so degrade climate that life, including human life, becomes impossible.
Well, short of large-scale nuclear conflict, no, we're not going extinct. Nobody is arguing that we're going extinct. (nobody sane, anyway) Standard skeptic straw man.

Just because I wasn't here yesterday doesn't mean I am incapable of judging what is causing things to happen today. I've never been one to buy the "we're too dumb to figure this out!" theory on anything.
 
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