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Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

Agent Ferris said:
Ya I mean like when we were clearly attacking Muslims when they started attacking and enslaving our sailors prior to the barbary wars. :roll: And by "interfering in their business" I take it you mean, finding, developing, and then purchasing their oil at a fair price so that they could stop living in ****ing tents in the ****ing desert. How dare we.
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The Barbary Wars weren't the kind of boundless quagmire we have today. We took care of the pirates and went on with our business, unlike the French, who colonized North Africa and have had trouble ever since. We didn't worry much about Islam again until after the World Wars, when we really started interfering. By that I mean overthrowing democratic governments, supporting religious extremists and dictators, nurturing police states, and generally wreaking havoc.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Well never.



What? Ya people receive the death penalty for trafficking pot all the time. :roll:




Ya we admit the latter is a fictional character; whereas, they do not admit that for their celestial dictator.
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We have a history of criminalizing immoral and irreligious behaviors, in some cases to the point of making them capital offenses. We may not always enforce the penalties, but neither do Muslims. Recall for example the adulteress who wasn't executed in Iran recently. Muslim countries are learning to join the modern world, just as we are.
 
ric27 said:
lol.....Tell me, whats difference between Islam and Communism?
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One similarity is that they've both been pretexts for Western interventionism when the real motive was commerce.
 
Arcana XV said:
Nah, I never heard anyone say that before the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union broke into pieces.
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Bull****, you hear it every single day on these boards that Stalin or Castro or Mao are not representative of Communism, that the "real" Communism hasn't been tried yet.
 
Winston Smith said:
The Barbary Wars weren't the kind of boundless quagmire we have today.
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I know and we weren't at war with Muslims until we started messing around in their business.

We took care of the pirates and went on with our business, unlike the French, who colonized North Africa and have had trouble ever since. We didn't worry much about Islam again until after the World Wars, when we really started interfering.
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I know, Muslims didn't start attacking us until after we messed with them. You're exactly right, the Barbary Pirates were not Muslims and did not cite Islamic dogma as their justification.

By that I mean overthrowing democratic governments,
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You mean like Mossadeq who was appointed by the Shah and overthrew the Parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote? Ya real bastion of liberty that one. :roll:

supporting religious extremists and dictators, nurturing police states, and generally wreaking havoc.
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These things were there before we got there, get ****ing educated, they are responsible for the state of their own affairs.
 
Winston Smith said:
We have a history of criminalizing immoral and irreligious behaviors, in some cases to the point of making them capital offenses.
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No sir we do not as a country have a history of invoking the capital and/or corporal punishment for homosexuality, adultery, and/or apostasy, you are a liar, prove it or GTFO.

We may not always enforce the penalties, but neither do Muslims.
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Tell me when the last time anyone in this country has seen any jail time for adultery, sodomy, or apostasy? I understand that you want to support the capital and/or corporal punishment penalty for gays, apostates, and adulterers, but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to draw a parallel between U.S. law and Sharia, you are making me annoyed and yourself look stupid.

Recall for example the adulteress who wasn't executed in Iran recently.
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Because of international pressure. If that story hadn't gotten out she would have been stoned to death. Now she'll just be serving a life sentence.

Muslim countries are learning to join the modern world, just as we are.
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Really? They set here free did they? No she'll be spending a lot of time in prison instead. Every single school of Islamic Fiqh calls for the death penalty and/or capital punishment for apostasy, premarital sex, adultery, and sodomy, that isn't even close to being in the modern world, try the 15th century.
 
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Winston Smith said:
We have a history of criminalizing immoral and irreligious behaviors, in some cases to the point of making them capital offenses. We may not always enforce the penalties, but neither do Muslims. Recall for example the adulteress who wasn't executed in Iran recently. Muslim countries are learning to join the modern world, just as we are.
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I know, like:


Bear wrestling matches are prohibited.


Dominoes may not be played on Sunday.


It is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while operating a vehicle.


damn christians.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
Bull****, you hear it every single day on these boards that Stalin or Castro or Mao are not representative of Communism, that the "real" Communism hasn't been tried yet.
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People say that NOW. Back then, the general consensus was "ZOMG EVIL RUSSIAN SCUM WANT TO KILL US ALL". Same crap you hear about Muslims today.
 
Agent Ferris said:
I know and we weren't at war with Muslims until we started messing around in their business.



I know, Muslims didn't start attacking us until after we messed with them. You're exactly right, the Barbary Pirates were not Muslims and did not cite Islamic dogma as their justification.
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I didn't say they weren't Muslims or that they didn't use religion to justify their crimes. But Muslims haven't been the only ones to do that. Christians thoroughly plundered the New World and exterminated the natives in the name of Christ, sad to say.

Agent Ferris said:
You mean like Mossadeq who was appointed by the Shah and overthrew the Parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote? Ya real bastion of liberty that one. :roll:



These things were there before we got there, get ****ing educated, they are responsible for the state of their own affairs.
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To a great extent, Islamic radicalism is the creation of Western colonial/imperialist powers who were seeking to counteract democratic forces. Democracy has failed to thrive in the Muslim world because we've actively opposed it at almost every turn.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Thankyou Mr. Chomsky, don't you have some anti-American genocidal regime to defend somewhere?
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I wouldn't defend genocide by any regime. Not even a pro-American one.

Agent Ferris said:
No sir we do not as a country have a history of invoking the capital and/or corporal punishment for homosexuality, adultery, and/or apostasy, you are a liar, prove it or GTFO.
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See the linked material on "The Bloody Code." Also of interest are the race-specific laws applicable only to blacks.

Agent Ferris said:
Tell me when the last time anyone in this country has seen any jail time for adultery, sodomy, or apostasy? I understand that you want to support the capital and/or corporal punishment penalty for gays, apostates, and adulterers, but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to draw a parallel between U.S. law and Sharia, you are making me annoyed and yourself look stupid.
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I don't know the last time, but it does happen:

If you have been arrested for adultery, it may benefit you to know that the crime of adultery has been successfully prosecuted in the state of Wisconsin in recent history in a case involving another criminal defense firm and resulting in a man being sentenced to prison for a period of years for having had an affair.

http://www.vanwagnerwood.com/CM/Custom/Adultery.asp
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Agent Ferris said:
Because of international pressure. If that story hadn't gotten out she would have been stoned to death. Now she'll just be serving a life sentence.
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So they responded to pressure. Good for them.

Agent Ferris said:
Really? They set here free did they? No she'll be spending a lot of time in prison instead. Every single school of Islamic Fiqh calls for the death penalty and/or capital punishment for apostasy, premarital sex, adultery, and sodomy, that isn't even close to being in the modern world, try the 15th century.
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The 15th century was closer to it than you might think. It was just before the Reformation, which marked a period of transition from Medieval times to modernity. Islam's current condition is arguably similar.
 
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Winston Smith said:
I wouldn't defend genocide by any regime. Not even a pro-American one.
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Implication here is ofcourse you would place America at the bottom of any list you would consider defending.....That is just great! And you presumably are a citizen of this country?

Tell us, which institution of "higher learning" did you attend so that we may accurately judge and keep from sending our children to that particular indoctrination camp?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Implication here is ofcourse you would place America at the bottom of any list you would consider defending.....That is just great! And you presumably are a citizen of this country?

Tell us, which institution of "higher learning" did you attend so that we may accurately judge and keep from sending our children to that particular indoctrination camp?


j-mac
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WTF are you talking about? How does supporting a genocide defend the United States?
 
j-mac said:
Implication here is ofcourse you would place America at the bottom of any list you would consider defending.....That is just great! And you presumably are a citizen of this country?
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Yes, because if he doesn't support genocide, then that means by default he puts America at the bottom of the list for defending. :roll:

What a moronic comment from you, but not surprising.
 
j-mac said:
Implication here is ofcourse you would place America at the bottom of any list you would consider defending.....That is just great! And you presumably are a citizen of this country?

Tell us, which institution of "higher learning" did you attend so that we may accurately judge and keep from sending our children to that particular indoctrination camp?


j-mac
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Actually I made the opposite implication. If I'd said "especially not a pro-American one," you'd be right.
 
Winston Smith said:
One similarity is that they've both been pretexts for Western interventionism when the real motive was commerce.
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Winston - The huge difference is, Islam won't collapse under economic pressure. Religions collapse or go by the wayside either through conquest and eradication, or by conversion to a perceived superior religion. Islam protects itself by not allowing the open practice of another religion in their territory and killing anyone who converts to another religion from Islam.

This makes it practically impossible for Islam to ever collapse the way communism did in the USSR.

Islam is even more insidious than communism.
 
Since Jet refuses to answer, I'll let others take a shot at my previous question (if they can)

Wtf constitutes "radical" Islam? Is it the desire to declare jihad on unbelievers? To eliminate Israel? To destroy the US? To spread Islam around the world?

Wtf is it?
 
ric27 said:
Since Jet refuses to answer, I'll let others take a shot at my previous question (if they can)

Wtf constitutes "radical" Islam? Is it the desire to declare jihad on unbelievers? To eliminate Israel? To destroy the US? To spread Islam around the world?

Wtf is it?
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What it means to me doesn't matter. Whats quite more disturbing is what it means to you. You seem to believe every Muslim and his dog is a jihadist. Which is EXACTLY what the terrorists want you to believe. They want you to be afraid. And it worked... on you ;)

Terrorists usually have that effect on the weak minded.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
Crusades, Old Testament, Inquisition.
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Now you are comparing relatively ancient Christianity with current Islam. Christianity has evolved. Islam has not, Mister Drunken
 
Jetboogieman said:
What it means to me doesn't matter. Whats quite more disturbing is what it means to you. You seem to believe every Muslim and his dog is a jihadist. Which is EXACTLY what the terrorists want you to believe. They want you to be afraid. And it worked... on you ;)

Terrorists usually have that effect on the weak minded.
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Jet - The fact of the matter is "radical" Islam" is a part of Islam that has always existed because the Koran and Hadith contain so much to support it.
 
ric27 said:
Jet - The fact of the matter is "radical" Islam" is a part of Islam that has always existed because the Koran and Hadith contain so much to support it.
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I can smell fear.

Want some Axe?
 
BCR said:
Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque - CNN.com


I think what they are doing is in somewhat poor taste but they have every right to do so. It's called religious freedom and the people who oppose these seem to be borderline hysterical about Islam, as if every Muslim has dynamite strapped to him somewhere on his body.

I think it is kind of wrong to label mainstream Islam with 9/11, It was fundamentalist Muslims who carried out 9/11. Just like Mormons don't like to be labeled with polygamy and Christians don't like to be labeled with the creationists and extreme homophobes.
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So who's building the Mosque - mainstream or fundamentalists?
How can we be sure it won't attract or sect off with more fundamentalists?
What's so wrong with wanting some distance between the two - more than 2 blocks worth, that is?

MaggieD said:
There is nothing redeeming about the Islamic faith, fundamentalist or extremist. The Koran is filled with hatred toward nonbelievers. I wonder if "they" would let us build a Christian church in Mecca?

Somewhat poor taste? Honestly, we just bend over and grab our ankles to look tolerant.
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Have you noticed that there are a lot of religions that fit this bill?
 
ric27 said:
Winston - The huge difference is, Islam won't collapse under economic pressure. Religions collapse or go by the wayside either through conquest and eradication, or by conversion to a perceived superior religion.
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Christianity was forced to relinquish its political power without eradication or conversion.

ric27 said:
Islam protects itself by not allowing the open practice of another religion in their territory and killing anyone who converts to another religion from Islam.
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Kinda like Christianity did.

ric27 said:
This makes it practically impossible for Islam to ever collapse the way communism did in the USSR.
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You mean they way Christianity did? :lol:

ric27 said:
Islam is even more insidious than communism.
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Islam, being a religion, is like any other religion or prevalent ideology. It is no more or less insidious.
 
ric27 said:
Since Jet refuses to answer, I'll let others take a shot at my previous question (if they can)

Wtf constitutes "radical" Islam? Is it the desire to declare jihad on unbelievers? To eliminate Israel? To destroy the US? To spread Islam around the world?

Wtf is it?
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I think it's fair to say that radical Islam is what you get when the religion is twisted to justify the use of violence against civilians in the interest of disrupting the established order.
 
Jetboogieman said:
I can smell fear.

Want some Axe?
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Check out, the last 200 years or so. One of the pushing points for jihadi movements has been the economic and military dominance of the West. The inequality is never attributed to culture, geography, resources, pop, educationm etc, etc It is because they have fallen away from the true faith. When Islam followed the true faith, they were successful, i.e. they conquered and won. Not the other way around.

They also have a ****ed up tribal structure where wealth gets concentrated at the top and the purpose of business, industry and money is to continue its concentration at the top. Their culture does not encourage upward mobility by the common man aka John Doe
 
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