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Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

That would be a brilliant and effective deployment of troops. :roll:

The problem is that there is no brilliant deployment of troops or walls. Illegal immigration occurs wherever you don't deploy the troops or walls. They go around you.
 
Men of sense often learn from their enemies. It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls. -Aristophanes
 
Increase military funding. We have plenty of money right?

No, we don't even though government acts as though we do. The 'sane' approach would be to take troops out of places like afghanistan and Iraq and actually do what the millitary is meant for : defending the homeland. Then the resources would be a non-issue.
 
We need to hammer their asses for income taxes. Every company that is suspected of employing illegal aliens, should be audited and the money paid out should be tracked and the illegal aliens that received should get hit for the entire 36% of their tax liability, with no credits, breaks, or deductions. Wanna see illegal immigration go down? Start tracking down all that cash.

Those taxes are already being paid by the people the illegal stole the identity from.

The real person is required to pay taxes on all income paid to him on paper whether it was him or not.

I don't hear anybody talking about how many people in the US are hurt financially by identity theft by illegals.

A lot of people have been destroyed by that.
 
Not bad...not bad at all! Thats one way to get their attention

Ok, what about giving an "order" to the Federal Reserve to cease making electronic transfers to Mexico??? A third of the Mexican GDP, such a cut-off would require immediate action on the part of Mexico to save their economy

There are a lot of US citizens (born in the US) that send money to their families in Mexico for the lack of social services in the country.

They take care of their elder relatives.

An order like you suggest first would do nothing and would not be legal.
 
No, we don't even though government acts as though we do. The 'sane' approach would be to take troops out of places like afghanistan and Iraq and actually do what the millitary is meant for : defending the homeland. Then the resources would be a non-issue.

I'm all for that. I agree that our military should be "defending the homeland", but i don't believe its 'sane' to leave the middle east now. Whos gonna police while were gone? They certainly aren't capable of doing it, otherwise we'd be gone by now. I mean we have put so much time, effort, and cash into the war, woulden't it be a complete waste to just cut out and leave? I think we should be more aggressive in the war. It would really cut down how long we would of been down there and remain down there. If your all in, your all in.
 
The problem is that there is no brilliant deployment of troops or walls. Illegal immigration occurs wherever you don't deploy the troops or walls. They go around you.

You set up anti-personel mines and grant troops shoot on site authorization and you will drop illegal immigration down to a trickle.
 
You set up anti-personel mines and grant troops shoot on site authorization and you will drop illegal immigration down to a trickle.

Yeah, well, I'm not a nazi, so... naaaah... I won't be going for that... I believe in proportional response, human rights and due process... Killing people with no trial just for not having their immigration paperwork in order would be completely insane...
 
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If we inform them first then it couldn't be directly related as a Nazi act. At least they have a choice in the matter (not cross our borders) where as the Jews didn't. No I'm not agreeing with Ferris. I just hate people always comparing modern policies and methods to Nazi Germany. It gets old.
 
If we inform them first then it couldn't be directly related as a Nazi act. At least they have a choice in the matter (not cross our borders) where as the Jews didn't. No I'm not agreeing with Ferris. I just hate people always comparing modern policies and methods to Nazi Germany. It gets old.

LOL. Fair enough. But empowering law enforcement to kill people for suspicion of attempted illegal immigration with no evidenciary requirements, no judge, to jury, no due process, no rights, no nothing, is just madness. It's no different than just unleashing them on the masses with order to shoot to kill anybody that looks to them like they're drunk driving... Drunk driving results in around 10,000 deaths a year, so actually it is MORE crazy than that would be...
 
I'm all for that. I agree that our military should be "defending the homeland", but i don't believe its 'sane' to leave the middle east now. Whos gonna police while were gone? They certainly aren't capable of doing it, otherwise we'd be gone by now.

Yes, well, they don't need us there policing... really... the only reason we're still in Iraq is to make sure the Iraqis don't try to reclaim control of their own oil supplies... whereas in afghanistan, there's far too much money coming from the opium trade to give back to the taliban (who would get rid of the opium), also, as we've recently found out the trillion dollars worth of lithium.

Of course it's insane to turn down those kinds of profits.

I mean we have put so much time, effort, and cash into the war, woulden't it be a complete waste to just cut out and leave? I think we should be more aggressive in the war. It would really cut down how long we would of been down there and remain down there. If your all in, your all in.

These wars aren't meant to be 'won'... they are meant to be 'waged' just like there's little profit in curing disease as opposed to the amount of money to be made 'treating' a disease.

If we inform them first then it couldn't be directly related as a Nazi act. At least they have a choice in the matter (not cross our borders) where as the Jews didn't. No I'm not agreeing with Ferris. I just hate people always comparing modern policies and methods to Nazi Germany. It gets old.

I'd recomend researching 'operation paperclip'.

Yeah, well, I'm not a nazi, so... naaaah... I won't be going for that... I believe in proportional response, human rights and due process... Killing people with no trial just for not having their immigration paperwork in order would be completely insane...

Yes, I agree, I really hesitate to mine out areas... however, if it's done in a lawful way (proper signage and delineated barriers), then it could prove a useful deterrent by reducing the areas that need be policed. Ultimately, there needs to be SOME deterrents going on, because when we're at a point of thousands of immigrants per day, that's millions every few years coming in... and more and more these are the violent drug cartels that are crossing over, that are NOT immigrating, they are mexicans expanding their domain of influence... aka INVADING / RECLAIMING (whichever your perspective might be)
 
LOL. Fair enough. But empowering law enforcement to kill people for suspicion of attempted illegal immigration with no evidenciary requirements, no judge, to jury, no due process, no rights, no nothing, is just madness. It's no different than just unleashing them on the masses with order to shoot to kill anybody that looks to them like they're drunk driving... Drunk driving results in around 10,000 deaths a year, so actually it is MORE crazy than that would be...

No no, not for 'suspicion' of being an illegal immigrant... I mean, if you're in that 80 mile deep zone of arizona, and you have a gun that even gets pointed in the general direction of the soldiers / officers open fire. Or, if you're in an area where there's no legitimate border crossings for hundreds of miles in either direction, that you be stopped, and if you resist then get shot and brought back to the mexican authorities.

We're beyond a simple 'illegal immigration' issue... this is turning into a 'hot' drug war... decriminalizing drugs would do alot to end the violence, because without profits, the drug gangs dissolve fairly quick. Like any enterprise, if you're not paying employees, you don't keep operating very long.

That said, since the feds have zero interest in implementing such policies that would end the issue overall, what should be done then???
 
Yes, well, they don't need us there policing... really... the only reason we're still in Iraq is to make sure the Iraqis don't try to reclaim control of their own oil supplies... whereas in afghanistan, there's far too much money coming from the opium trade to give back to the taliban (who would get rid of the opium), also, as we've recently found out the trillion dollars worth of lithium.

Of course it's insane to turn down those kinds of profits.



These wars aren't meant to be 'won'... they are meant to be 'waged' just like there's little profit in curing disease as opposed to the amount of money to be made 'treating' a disease.



I'd recomend researching 'operation paperclip'.

As for your statement on the war being waged, yes i agree. We need to set up a legitimate system and weaken the enemy to the point where we CAN pull out and CAN be contained in a reasonable manner. This IS a war that cannot be inevitably won. But we are not seeking to win a war, we are attempting to create order. As for Operation paperclip. I have read about that. I don;t see how that has relevance on the current border issue though. From what i understand we contained Nazi SCIENTISTS for fear of the Soviet union taking them and using them to create Super-Weapons (Much more sensitive issue at the time.). And again i don't believe we should shoot on sight. I was just making a point that comparing border control and drug cartels in todays era (Where citizenship can be acquired) to Nazi germany, was completely irrelevant.
 
There are a lot of US citizens (born in the US) that send money to their families in Mexico for the lack of social services in the country.

They take care of their elder relatives.

An order like you suggest first would do nothing and would not be legal.

Not impossible, but would require some banking changes and with a president/administration who will deal with "What to do now" about the situation in Iraq and A-stan...as opposed to whose fault it was, what we should have done, this was wrong that was wrong. It all seems so basic and obvious. yet this country is struggling and neither the people or the government are doing anything to better the situation.

It should serve as a reminder to all that illegal aliens and their confederates have no allegiance to our country or culture, yet demand more and more hospitality, forgiveness and money when they openly break our laws, flaunt their illegal status or aid in the commission of a crime.

The fact that those kids are enjoying a free public education which they in turn abandon to desecrate a symbol of the country that enables them to pursue that avenue of success speaks volumes.
 
We're beyond a simple 'illegal immigration' issue... this is turning into a 'hot' drug war... decriminalizing drugs would do alot to end the violence, because without profits, the drug gangs dissolve fairly quick. Like any enterprise, if you're not paying employees, you don't keep operating very long.

The drug war is a whole different thing. If they want to militarize sections of the border where they are literally getting armed gangs, hey, fine by me.

Yeah, decriminalization is the way to go. Same reasoning as I have with illegal immigration. Enforcement alone just can't tackle a problem of that scale. You need incentive structures working in your favor or you fail.
 
As for your statement on the war being waged, yes i agree. We need to set up a legitimate system and weaken the enemy to the point where we CAN pull out and CAN be contained in a reasonable manner. This IS a war that cannot be inevitably won.

No, I mean, it is meant to be a PERPETUAL war... much like in 1984 how they were always at war with eastasia or eurasia... there was never any way to 'win' the wars, they aren't MEANT to be won. It's merely the 'meat grinder'. That there are 'side benefits' of resources in most of the countries we wage war with is really a side issue... that's why McChrystal was replaced... he wanted enough soldiers to actually WIN the war in afghanistan... DENIED. Yes, there was the media show, but look at what was going on just prior to the hyped up media frenzy, that's what was REALLY going on.


But we are not seeking to win a war, we are attempting to create order.

Yes, we're trying to impose the anglo-american world order on those who already had their own sovereign form of order imposed. Does that make them 'the good guys' no... more like it's several colors of 'bad sides'... which I'll address next :

As for Operation paperclip. I have read about that. I don;t see how that has relevance on the current border issue though. From what i understand we contained Nazi SCIENTISTS for fear of the Soviet union taking them and using them to create Super-Weapons (Much more sensitive issue at the time.). And again i don't believe we should shoot on sight. I was just making a point that comparing border control and drug cartels in todays era (Where citizenship can be acquired) to Nazi germany, was completely irrelevant.

It has nothing to do with the border issue per-se, more to do with the 'nazi' analogies... if you have studied operation paperclip, then you have an idea about how the elite scientists from the nazi's avoided prosecution and were shipped over to the american side... so, it's not very much of a stretch to say that america has become the continuation of the nazi regime, except with a different strategy.


The drug war is a whole different thing. If they want to militarize sections of the border where they are literally getting armed gangs, hey, fine by me.

SO long as you're not allowing these drug gangs to gain foothold in american territories.

Yeah, decriminalization is the way to go. Same reasoning as I have with illegal immigration. Enforcement alone just can't tackle a problem of that scale. You need incentive structures working in your favor or you fail.

No, we need a several pronged approach :
a) decriminalize the drugs to eliminate the black market
b) a millitary sweep of those drug movers in arizona and other border states
c) enforcement of all immigration laws on the books, targeting business owners primarily.
d) freeze all assets going to mexico for a 6 month period while this is going on

I'm sure more could be ADDED to the list of things that need to be done...

Now, MOST IMPORTANTLY : the feds are NOT going to do ANY OF THIS!!!
SO, we need to discuss solutions as they can be forwarded to the state congresses in all affected states as to how they can implement proper state strategies to solve the problems on their own.

Any federal government strategy is hot air, because the feds DO NOT WANT to solve the problem in ANY way other then blanket amnesty, which would contain language tying US, Canada and Mexico into something like the european union. It's all in the SPP documents.
 
My gosh how frigging hard is it? I mean we gotta do something and now.

I have a friend who thinks they should be able to point and shoot. While I do not agree with that?
We need to come up with reasons to keep illegals out of the U.S.A.

The first is the people reading this: stop hiring them

second: go after the places that hire them

third: tell that bastard that runs Mexico that if he does not get control over this? Well we will make sure they pay. That asshole has some nerve being upset about what has been going on AZ.. Are you frigging kidding me? You expect us to allow your people to come here illegal, send back money, etc. but what have you all done for us lately? Not one damn thing.

Tell em all to f off and we are gonna do what we need to do even if that means putting a seal on pur borders and yes if we have to take drastic measures? Well you were warned.

How hard is it to send a message: illegal-you do NOT get in! And if we see you trying? Well you are screwed. Maybe we need to start treating these folks with the same amount of respect we would be treated with if we break the law there. I am sure that may send a strong signal you do not wanna be illegal in the U.S.A.

And that is MY liberal thoughts. Call me mean, racist, whatever. Guess what? I do not care as my number one concern is how to rid MY country from this problem.
 
Now, MOST IMPORTANTLY : the feds are NOT going to do ANY OF THIS!!!
SO, we need to discuss solutions as they can be forwarded to the state congresses in all affected states as to how they can implement proper state strategies to solve the problems on their own.

Any federal government strategy is hot air, because the feds DO NOT WANT to solve the problem in ANY way other then blanket amnesty, which would contain language tying US, Canada and Mexico into something like the european union. It's all in the SPP documents.

That just really is not true... The federal government spents about $36 billion a year on border patrol. Adjusted for inflation, that's about what it has been for a long time. For some reason the right started this meme that Obama is refusing to do anything, but it's just politicking... He doesn't want to make a major change in our approach without coming up with a comprehensive solution. He does not favor "blanket amnesty", he favors setting up a long and arduous path to citizenship and/or a guest worker program as part of the overall solution, but he also favors more enforcement. He just doesn't want to yeild to the political pressure to just toss out some poorly thought out kneejerk reaction and slap some more troops here or there for show without having an actual plan. This could easily degenerate into something like the absurd war on drugs where we're blowing TONS of money every year and not accomplishing really anything at all.
 
we gotta do something and now.

I don't understand where the sense of sudden urgency comes from on this issue. The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been falling for 3 years in a row. That means more illegal immigrants are choosing to leave the country than are coming in. It's falling faster than it has in 30 years. But somehow it suddenly began to be percieved as a crisis... It's just a politically manufactured panic. This isn't the kind of issue where you just want to throw together a plan driven by media hype, it's the kind of issue that you need to really carefully work through all aspects of the issue and devise just the right plan, you need to roll it out slowly and carefully, etc. Lots of civil rights issues, efficacy issues, cost issues, legal issues, need to be balanced correctly or we will just end up going down the road we did with the drug war- spending a trillion dollars and causing a lot of suffering for a lot of people without really accomplishing anything.
 
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$36 billion a year on border patrol that is not working. Thanks gov. we got legal peeps up in this country starving and we are wasting away this much money on this problem? We got a bunch of dummies running this country. Again how hard is this? Not hard at all. Round em up and round em up. We/The U.S.A. made a big mistake in letting this problem get so out of control and it disgust me that so much money has went to this issue when it is not working when we could have been using this kind of money to help save LEGAL folks in this country.

I hate to say it but since OUR gov has failed us in reguards to this issue? It is time to start taking a hard ball approach on this issue which shoulda been done all along.

Meanwhile.. People that have worked their ass off legally in this country are worried about how they are gonna eat, pay for meds, etc. This is just shameful!

Social security will probably be gone before long and we waste money on these criminals that are not even worthy of crossing our border. I think we need to get back to real priorities in this country and instead of being all soft about "oh they came here for a better life" Sure they did. Lets feed them. give em jobs, medical care, etc. rather than helping out Granny Jones that is LEGAL who cannot afford a fan in the summer, food, medical care and meds. Sure.. We should be sooooooooo damn sensitive to the plight of the illegals.

Go down to Mexico and see if they give a crap about you, come back and tell me why I should care about criminals when I know many legal folks born up in this country that are sitting locked up on bull**** charges.

Tell me I should give a crap about any of these people when they take a known risk. I am not heartless but I am of the school you protect your own first.. We got legal folks here starving and dying with no roof over they head, no food to eat, Nothing! Til we help them? I will NEVER get behind just overlooking these illegals that are getting over our system.
 
I don't understand where the sense of sudden urgency comes from on this issue. The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been falling for 3 years in a row. That means more illegal immigrants are choosing to leave the country than are coming in. It's falling faster than it has in 30 years. But somehow it suddenly began to be percieved as a crisis... It's just a politically manufactured panic. This isn't the kind of issue where you just want to throw together a plan driven by media hype, it's the kind of issue that you need to really carefully work through all aspects of the issue and devise just the right plan, you need to roll it out slowly and carefully, etc. Lots of civil rights issues, efficacy issues, cost issues, legal issues, need to be balanced correctly or we will just end up going down the road we did with the drug war- spending a trillion dollars and causing a lot of suffering for a lot of people without really accomplishing anything.

Oh.. Did you confuse my outrage for panic? I been saying this for years so you can preach to someone else.
 
That just really is not true...

I really do wish you were right... and this would be no different a situation if it was John McCain in office, simply, this is the follow-through of the plan signed between Canada, USA and Mexico, to 'dissolve the borders between the country to focus instead on our common border.'

www.judicialwatch.org has all the SPP documents available through freedom of information. This trancends the political parties.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2007/mexico.agreement.pdf
EDIT : Ya, this document pretty much covers giving mexicans SSN's, and unemployment benefits...

That was back when they were talking about the 'amero' as a common currency, but would require a realignment of our currencies, most likely to the lowest common denominator... meaning, lining up canada's and america's economies to be more in line with Mexico's.

The federal government spents about $36 billion a year on border patrol. Adjusted for inflation, that's about what it has been for a long time. For some reason the right started this meme that Obama is refusing to do anything, but it's just politicking... He doesn't want to make a major change in our approach without coming up with a comprehensive solution.
When he says 'comprehensive solution' he really does mean 'blanket amnesty'... he won't be writing the bill, or reading the bill before he signs the bill, when it eventually gets proposed, and I'll put a dollar that it will get proposed once this problem gets worse...

YouTube - Kyl says Obama said no border security for political reasons
Now, unless you can prove that he did not go to the whitehouse and his story is not possible, well... I'm gonna take his words, cause I've been sounding alarms about SPP before the actual documents came out, and well... they speak for themselves when viewed in entirety.

He does not favor "blanket amnesty", he favors setting up a long and arduous path to citizenship and/or a guest worker program as part of the overall solution, but he also favors more enforcement. He just doesn't want to yeild to the political pressure to just toss out some poorly thought out kneejerk reaction and slap some more troops here or there for show without having an actual plan. This could easily degenerate into something like the absurd war on drugs where we're blowing TONS of money every year and not accomplishing really anything at all.

I bet if those drug cartels stopped paying their cuts to the government, that there would be enough money to stop these people. If you need, I can show all the different times the FBI / CIA has been caught bringing drugs into the country, while the other branches fight 'the war at home' and arrest all the kids dumb enough to use the stuff, that is if you insist. It's amazing just how dire the situation is for the US at the moment... army spread throughout the world in hundreds of different locations, going bankrupt, then theres' a massive oil spill that some are saying threatans to evacuate much of the coast, at the same time the border problems are running rampant. Simultaneously, Israel is now posturing against Iran, and bringing US forces with them, meanwhile people are trying to smuggle aid to the palestinians. Much of the euro countries are on the verge of economic collapse and selling off their infrastructure to the same bankers that created the problems in the first place with crooked lending practises, derivatives, and other sorts of fraudulent ventures.

I wish I was just making it all up... but if there's going to be a solution found, it's going to come from individuals getting active in their communities and making things better. If not, we are in for a rough futur.
 
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Again how hard is this? Not hard at all. Round em up and round em up.

It's incredibly hard. Finding a person who doesn't want to be found in a country with 4 million square miles, 311 million people, maybe a million places of employment is ridiculously hard. Even in the case of murderers, who we want to find far more than we want to find an individual illegal immigrant, we only manage to catch a measly 9% of the culprits and we spend millions per case just to get even that 9%. There are 10 million illegal immigrants here... Think about what would it take you to avoid being caught by the police if they wanted to catch you? Just go crash on a friend's couch and get a fake ID, and they pretty much have zero chance of catching you unless they launch a massive effort with photographs of you being circulated around and tapping phones and interogating everybody you know, undercovers lurking outside your parents' house in case you try to sneak by to say hi and whatnot... Now try doing that 10 million times and you have a police action of unprecedented scale... Trillions of dollars, decades of time, and massive sacrifies of civil rights. Look what the Nazis had to do in order to round up 8 million Jews. I know, I know, I'm not saying it's like the gas chambers, but it's one of the only historical cases where anywhere near that many people who didn't want to be found were "rounded up" by a government. They had to suspend all civil rights for everybody, they had to launch massive campaigns to go door to door searching every house, they had to spend insane amounts of money, kill people who wouldn't turn their neighbors in, etc, etc. It wouldn't be much easier for us to do something on a similar scale. Or, look at how we're doing catching insurgents in Iraq. We're spending almost a trillion dollars a year there and catching maybe 10,000 a year? If that?

"Rounding up" 10 million people who want to disappear is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. It would be a massive law enforcement effort beyond anything you can imagine... We'd need to expand ICE to something several time larger than all the current law enforcement agencies combined and give them unlimited power with no due process restrictions or warrants required or anything... Nation-wide police state... It just isn't an option.
 
When he says 'comprehensive solution' he really does mean 'blanket amnesty'...

What do you mean by blanket amnesty exactly? Are you claiming he just wants to say "bang, now they're all citizens?" If that's what you mean, then definitely, no, that is not what he wants. Or what anybody wants really.

Kyl says Obama said no border security for political reasons

A Republican claiming Obama said something is not reliable. I bet there is a kernal of truth to it though. I bet Obama said that he didn't want to increase border security unless it was part of a comprehensive plan on immigration. That's just smart though. The spin that it's like Obama is trying to extort their cooperation or whatever is transparent partisan hackery.

It's amazing just how dire the situation is for the US at the moment... army spread throughout the world in hundreds of different locations, going bankrupt, then theres' a massive oil spill that some are saying threatans to evacuate much of the coast, at the same time the border problems are running rampant. Simultaneously, Israel is now posturing against Iran, and bringing US forces with them, meanwhile people are trying to smuggle aid to the palestinians. Much of the euro countries are on the verge of economic collapse and selling off their infrastructure to the same bankers that created the problems in the first place with crooked lending practises, derivatives, and other sorts of fraudulent ventures.

So, with all those problems why would you want to take on a whole other "war" at home? We can't afford it and we have far higher priorities on our plate.
 
It's incredibly hard. Finding a person who doesn't want to be found in a country with 4 million square miles, 311 million people, maybe a million places of employment is ridiculously hard. Even in the case of murderers, who we want to find far more than we want to find an individual illegal immigrant, we only manage to catch a measly 9% of the culprits and we spend millions per case just to get even that 9%. There are 10 million illegal immigrants here... Think about what would it take you to avoid being caught by the police if they wanted to catch you? Just go crash on a friend's couch and get a fake ID, and they pretty much have zero chance of catching you unless they launch a massive effort with photographs of you being circulated around and tapping phones and interogating everybody you know, undercovers lurking outside your parents' house in case you try to sneak by to say hi and whatnot... Now try doing that 10 million times and you have a police action of unprecedented scale... Trillions of dollars, decades of time, and massive sacrifies of civil rights...

Ya, it'd be amazingly expensive, whereas finding the companies that are using illegal immigrant workers would be much easier of a task, and you could nab piles of them at a time... if cops are so inclined they can determine if an ID is fake... even if it's just in the details like not knowing eye color, or birthday.

Or, look at how we're doing catching insurgents in Iraq. We're spending almost a trillion dollars a year there and catching maybe 10,000 a year? If that?

Ya... it's a rediculous waste of money, we should have been out of there once the initial plan of 'regime change' in Iraq was accomplished.

"Rounding up" 10 million people who want to disappear is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. It would be a massive law enforcement effort beyond anything you can imagine... We'd need to expand ICE to something several time larger than all the current law enforcement agencies combined and give them unlimited power with no due process restrictions or warrants required or anything... Nation-wide police state... It just isn't an option.

If you were hoping to accomplish the task within a year...but if it was really a multi-pronged effort to clean house, you'd start having mexicans fleeing to the border. That'd at least free up some jobs.
 
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