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Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

Just making a distinction between a right and a privilege to show consistency with my driving=gun usage argument. Also, to demonstrate, based on the 2nd Amendment, taken literally, what the government can and cannot regulate. The government CANNOT regulate the bearing of arms. This shall not be infringed. Accordingly, from an originalist point of view, one can own/have/carry any gun they choose. However, since there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that says anything about firing/using those arms, the government CAN regulate this. When, how, where, and why. Now, from what I know, there ARE laws that regulate this; according to the literal reading of the 2nd Amendment, this does NOT infringe on one's rights to bear arms. Only to shoot arms.
So you want to license or tax someone to fire a gun before they can purchase a gun and or ammo? It would still conflict with the shall not infringe part.
 
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So you want to license or tax someone to fire a gun before they can purchase a gun and or ammo? It would still conflict with the shall not infringe part.

No it wouldn't. They could purchase the gun unrestricted... as long as they have no intention of firing it. If they intend to fire it, THEN they would need to go through a training/licensing/registration process. Purchasing/owning... BEARING... will not be infringed.
 
It took me a few posts to see that I was dealing with a rope a dope contrarian.

some of these newbies act as if they have some novel trick that I haven't seen in the 35 years I have been dealing with the ARC

Yeah there are too dam many uppity newbies here.:peace
 
I would think a firing range would be considered private property.
Not necessarily, one shooting range around my area is operated by that city's sheriff's office and is part of the corrections complex, it is quite public.
 
No it wouldn't. They could purchase the gun unrestricted... as long as they have no intention of firing it. If they intend to fire it, THEN they would need to go through a training/licensing/registration process. Purchasing/owning... BEARING... will not be infringed.

To keep and bear arms is protected. Bearing arms is not just holding it, to bear is a verb which includes the functional use of the device, in this case arms. Otherwise, it would just be the right to keep arms which was protected. But that's not the wording, it's to keep and bear arms. Which means the functional use of arms is necessary as well. As alluded to in the first part of the second amendment which reminds us that a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State. The term to bear arms is used more to describe. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines the phrase To bear arms as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight."

So yes, what you call for most certainly does infringe upon the right to bear arms.
 
TurtleDude said:
It took me a few posts to see that I was dealing with a rope a dope contrarian.

Right back at ya, buddy. The only thing I'm interested in is getting to the truth of the matter, not moving some agenda. I am supportive of gun rights, but I'm not willing to lie and distort facts about "original intent" to accomplish this end. If that makes me a contrarian- it doesn't- then so be it.

TurtleDude said:
some of these newbies act as if they have some novel trick that I haven't seen in the 35 years I have been dealing with the ARC
When you fall back on "I've been doing this for 35 years" in place of an argument, you really aren't doing yourself any favors, and it just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you do, for all I know, but you're not acting like it. Give me facts and persuasive arguments, not some blatant fallacy.

That self-defense is a right protected under the original meaning of the Second Amendment is arguable, but very weak. To argue that hunting is protected under the original meaning of the second amendment is disingenuous, underinformed nonsense.
 
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Right back at ya, buddy. The only thing I'm interested in is getting to the truth of the matter, not moving some agenda.
Still waiting for you to supply the quotes that show the people that wrote and ratified the 2nd intended to protect the exercise of the collective right of self-defense to the absolute exclusion of the individual right to same.

You've had 2 days and thus far supplied nothing to support your claim to that effect.
 
Also, to demonstrate, based on the 2nd Amendment, taken literally, what the government can and cannot regulate. The government CANNOT regulate the bearing of arms. This shall not be infringed. Accordingly, from an originalist point of view, one can own/have/carry any gun they choose. However, since there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that says anything about firing/using those arms, the government CAN regulate this.
Firing/using falls under "bearing" arms.
How silly is it to protect the right of ownership of a someting but not the right to use that something, especially given that the use of that somethng in so fundamnetally necessary to the right itself?
 
To keep and bear arms is protected. Bearing arms is not just holding it, to bear is a verb which includes the functional use of the device, in this case arms. Otherwise, it would just be the right to keep arms which was protected. But that's not the wording, it's to keep and bear arms. Which means the functional use of arms is necessary as well. As alluded to in the first part of the second amendment which reminds us that a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State. The term to bear arms is used more to describe. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines the phrase To bear arms as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight."

So yes, what you call for most certainly does infringe upon the right to bear arms.

Firing/using falls under "bearing" arms.
How silly is it to protect the right of ownership of a someting but not the right to use that something, especially given that the use of that somethng in so fundamnetally necessary to the right itself?

I was pretty careful and looked up the definition of "bearing arms" Carry and possessing firearms is what came up. Nothing about use. So, no, it doesn't fall under that as defined, quite literally in the Constitution. Now, if YOU want to interpret it a different way, be my guest, but as it reads, the government can not infringe in the "bearing" of arms, but can on the "firing" of arms.
 
I was pretty careful and looked up the definition of "bearing arms" Carry and possessing firearms is what came up. Nothing about use. So, no, it doesn't fall under that as defined, quite literally in the Constitution. Now, if YOU want to interpret it a different way, be my guest, but as it reads, the government can not infringe in the "bearing" of arms, but can on the "firing" of arms.
This is absurd, on its face and beyond belief.
 
Not careful enough

The people's right to have their own arms for their defense is described in the philosophical and political writings of Aristotle, Cicero, John Locke, Machiavelli, the English Whigs and others.[109] The concept of a universal militia originated in Roman times, where every citizen was a soldier and every soldier was a citizen.[110][111] Though possessing arms appears to be distinct from "bearing" them, the possession of arms is recognized as necessary for and a logical precursor to the bearing of arms.[112]

The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines the phrase To bear arms as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight." The OED dates this use to 1795.[113][114]Garry Wills, an author and history professor at Northwestern University, writes of the origin of the term bear arms:

By legal and other channels, the Latin "arma ferre" entered deeply into the European language of war. Bearing arms is such a synonym for waging war that Shakespeare can call a just war " 'justborne arms" and a civil war "self-borne arms." Even outside the special phrase "bear arms," much of the noun's use echoes Latin phrases: to be under arms (sub armis), the call to arms (ad arma), to follow arms (arma sequi), to take arms (arma capere), to lay down arms (arma pœnere). "Arms" is a profession that one brother chooses the way another choose law or the church. An issue undergoes the arbitrament of arms." ... "One does not bear arms against a rabbit...[115]

Garry Wills also cites Greek and Latin etymology:

... "Bear Arms" refers to military service, which is why the plural is used (based on Greek 'hopla pherein' and Latin 'arma ferre') – one does not bear arm, or bear an arm. The word means, etymologically, 'equipment' (from the root ar-* in verbs like 'ararisko', to fit out). It refers to the 'equipage' of war. Thus 'bear arms' can be used of naval as well as artillery warfare, since the "profession of arms" refers to all military callings.[115]

Don Kates, a civil liberties lawyer, cites historic English usage attributed to Tench Coxe describing the "right to keep and bear their private arms."[116]

Per Sayoko Blodgett-Ford, both military and nonmilitary usages of the phrase exist in the Pennsylvania "minority report" published after the ratifying convention

That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up: and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers."[117]

Historian Jack Rakove, in an amicus brief signed by a dozen leading historians filed in District of Columbia. v. Heller,[118] identifies several problems with the Kates and Blodgett-Ford arguments. Coxe's reference describes the ownership of weapons, not the purpose for which the weapons were owned. Thus, privately owned weapons were state-mandated as a means of meeting one's legal obligation to contribute to public defense. This amicus brief however, observes that Pennsylvania, because of Quaker influence, refused to pass laws organizing a militia for two decades prior to the Revolution, and refused to organize a militia even during wartime when frontier counties petitioned the colonial government.[119] How the right to arms is based on membership in the militia, when there is no militia, is unexplained. Other historians note that the Second Amendment describes what was as much a civic obligation as it was a right in the modern sense.[120] The meaning of the Pennsylvania dissent of the minority is even more hotly disputed. Historians note that this text, written by the Anti-Federalist minority of a single state, was hastily written, never actually reached the floor of the convention, and was never emulated by any other ratification convention.[120][121][122][48] In 1982, on the other hand, a Republican-majority U.S. Senate subcommittee claimed the Pennsylvania minority report as a source for the Bill of Rights,[123] while the majority opinion in Heller referred to this report as being "highly influential".[124]

Richard Uviller and William G. Merkel argue that prior to and through the 18th century, the expression "bear arms" appeared primarily in military contexts, as opposed to the use of firearms by civilians.[25][62][125][24] According to Uviller and Merkel:

In late-eighteenth-century parlance, bearing arms was a term of art with an obvious military and legal connotation. ... As a review of the Library of Congress's data base of congressional proceedings in the revolutionary and early national periods reveals, the thirty uses of 'bear arms' and 'bearing arms' in bills, statutes, and debates of the Continental, Confederation, and United States' Congresses between 1774 and 1821 invariably occur in a context exclusively focused on the army or the militia.[125]

Clayton Cramer and Joseph Olson question Uviller and Merkel's conclusion, arguing that while previous scholarly examination of the phrase "bear arms" in English language documents published around the time of the Constitution does show almost entirely military uses or contexts, this may reflect a selection bias arising from the use of a limited selection of government documents that overwhelmingly refer to matters of military service.[126] According to Cramer and Olson:

Searching more comprehensive collections of English language works published before 1820 shows that there are a number of uses that...have nothing to do with military service...[and] The common law was in agreement. Edward Christian's edition of Blackstone's Commentaries that appeared in the 1790's described the rights of Englishmen (which every American colonist had been promised) in these terms 'everyone is at liberty to keep or carry a gun, if he does not use it for the [unlawful] destruction of game.' This right was separate from militia duties.[126]

Mark Tushnet claims that "bear arms," when used separately from "keep" in the late-eighteenth century, could refer to hunting or other activities. However, when used together, they specifically refer to weapons in connection with military use.

When used separately in the eighteenth century, 'keep' and 'bear' had their ordinary meanings -you could keep a weapon in your house, and then you'd bear it outside. When used together, though, the meaning is more restricted. The evidence is overwhelming that 'keep and bear' was a technical phrase whose terms traveled together, like 'cease and desist' or 'hue and cry.' 'Keep and bear' referred to weapons in connection with military uses, even when the terms used separately might refer to hunting or other activities.[127]

Legal commentator and author Patrick J. Charles analyzed "keep arms" and "bear arms" in eighteenth century statutes and military treatises and concludes that both phrases were legal terms of art used to describe arms in a military context.[128]
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So everything from the philosophy for why we have the right to keep and bear arms through the etymology of the words use refer to bear arms as a verb which includes the functional use of the arms. So again, you're wrong.
 
Not careful enough
Nor is the consideration of the implication.

If CC is right, then the 2nd amendment is meaningless, as the government could effectinly eliminate the right to arms by eliminating any legal use of those arms. This is completely counter to the intent of the amendment, and thus, absurd on its face.

The USE of the firearm is a fundamental part of the right to arms, as a weapon that cannot be used is, well, useless.
 
Nor is the consideration of the implication.

If CC is right, then the 2nd amendment is meaningless, as the government could effectinly eliminate the right to arms by eliminating any legal use of those arms. This is completely counter to the intent of the amendment, and thus, absurd on its face.

The USE of the firearm is a fundamental part of the right to arms, as a weapon that cannot be used is, well, useless.

Exactly. But some people who are opposed to the exercise of certain rights will try their best to play semantics games to get around the functional form of the right itself. It's absurd to propose that it's ok to heavily regulate the use of weapons when the People have the right to keep and bear arms. Furthermore, the overwhelming intent is so that the People have the proper tools by which they can fight foriegn or domestic threats against their liberty and freedom. To bear is a verb which includes, by the definitions of the time, to fight.
 
So everything from the philosophy for why we have the right to keep and bear arms through the etymology of the words use refer to bear arms as a verb which includes the functional use of the arms. So again, you're wrong.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but the very quotation you use above seems to go against this point:

Mark Tushnet claims that "bear arms," when used separately from "keep" in the late-eighteenth century, could refer to hunting or other activities. However, when used together, they specifically refer to weapons in connection with military use.

What kind of military use? The militia. Therefore the amendment doesn't protect other uses. Which is just bolstered by the next paragraph you quote:

When used separately in the eighteenth century, 'keep' and 'bear' had their ordinary meanings -you could keep a weapon in your house, and then you'd bear it outside. When used together, though, the meaning is more restricted. The evidence is overwhelming that 'keep and bear' was a technical phrase whose terms traveled together, like 'cease and desist' or 'hue and cry.' 'Keep and bear' referred to weapons in connection with military uses, even when the terms used separately might refer to hunting or other activities.[127]

Legal commentator and author Patrick J. Charles analyzed "keep arms" and "bear arms" in eighteenth century statutes and military treatises and concludes that both phrases were legal terms of art used to describe arms in a military context.[128]

This does not support the conclusion "we have the right to keep and bear arms through the etymology of the words use refer to bear arms as a verb which includes the functional use of the arms." It instead places a necessary limitation on the functionality of the weapons which the second amendment protects, namely militia service. This conclusion seems at odds with your personal argument. Did I interpret you wrong?
 
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Maybe I'm missing understanding what you're saying here, but the very quotation you use above seems to go against this point:
Still waiting for you to supply the quotes that show the people that wrote and ratified the 2nd intended to protect the exercise of the collective right of self-defense to the absolute exclusion of the individual right to same.

You've had 2 days and thus far supplied nothing to support your claim to that effect.
 
Did I interpret you wrong?

Yes you did. As later SCOTUS rulings have clarified to second amendment to apply to things such as hunting and private arms and as an individualistic right. The argument wasn't about that, but rather over the meaning of "to bear arms". And that is what I posted about. The term "to bear arms" is a verb which includes the functional use of arms.
 
Yes you did. As later SCOTUS rulings have clarified to second amendment to apply to things such as hunting and private arms and as an individualistic right. The argument wasn't about that, but rather over the meaning of "to bear arms". And that is what I posted about. The term "to bear arms" is a verb which includes the functional use of arms.

Oh ok, my apologies. My head is still stuck on originalism. That quote you provided really does help to bolster my argument though, so thanks!
 
Oh ok, my apologies. My head is still stuck on originalism. That quote you provided really does help to bolster my argument though, so thanks!

It would have if the SCOTUS had not already ruled it to be an individual right separate from military duty.
 
It would have if the SCOTUS had not already ruled it to be an individual right separate from military duty.

Now I think you're misunderstanding me, I didn't mean that as a jibe or anything. My argument is something separate and distinct from yours, about the original meaning of the 2nd. I do not dispute that the meaning of the amendment has broadened over time, just like the first amendment.
 
This is absurd, on its face and beyond belief.

Not at all. It is reading the 2nd Amendment and taking it completely literally. No my fault if you want to interpret it. Never knew you were such a developmentalist when it came to the Constitution, Goobie. ;)
 
No really. It is against the law to discharge a fire arm in most cities.

It's against the law to recklessly discharge your fire arm in most cities.
 
It's against the law to recklessly discharge your fire arm in most cities.

No. If I go into my backyard and start shooting at a target, even though it may be safe, I will be arrested.

One must go to a firing range in the city. There is just too much danger, otherwise.
 
No. If I go into my backyard and start shooting at a target, even though it may be safe, I will be arrested.

One must go to a firing range in the city. There is just too much danger, otherwise.

That would be deemed reckless dicharge if you are in a crowded neighborhood. Less you are saying that if someone broke into your house and you shot them, that you'd be arrested for having fired your gun. Then your point is valid. But I don't think many of those cities exist.
 
Can someone in Chicago just get this idiot Daley out of office already? Besides the fact that this zero has been in office for over 20 years - an obscenity in and of itself, all he is doing is wasting taxpayer dollars with these moronic rules over which the city will be sued and forced to overturn:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/07/01/us/AP-US-Chicago-Gun-Ban.html?_r=1&hp

"Chicago Mayor Offers Strict Gun Rules
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 1, 2010

CHICAGO (AP) -- With the city's gun ban certain to be overturned, Mayor Richard Daley on Thursday introduced what city officials say is the strictest handgun ordinance in the United States."
 
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