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BP Is Burning Sea Turtles Alive, Gulf Captain Says

Why would anyone advocate letting them go? Do it by the book, says I. Why cut them slack? Is it just to hard to be responsible?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yes there is, it called doing everything you can to minimize the impact of the oil leak.
In this instance it involves burning the oil, there will be some casualties but that's life.
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I don't disagree with that. Sometimes what has to be done is not pretty. However all I was asking is, "can this be prevented?" Are there more measures that can be taken that less life be burned alive?
 
DarkWizard12 said:
I wouldn't know, I'm not knowledgeable of such measures and their impact, what measures would you contend?

But please answer mine, what benefit does BP get from this? If there is no apparant motive, are we not left to one conclusion, it's not deliberate? It's just an accident. Would every individual in those boats be THAT heartless to burn turtles for no reason at all other than pure entertainment? Or is it likely they have something else in mind: Just doing their jobs and cleaning up the oil, they wouldn't have a clue that the turtles are endangered and they could be fined.
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Please, you don't have to get all worked up here. Jeepers.

While I don't think BP did any of this deliberately, facts are coming out that they cut corners to save a few bucks. They got cocky, gambled, and lost. This is why I do not deem this as an accident so I have zero sympathy for them. Now they are in a mess, a mess that they are struggling to handle. Of course I realize that there's a lot of ugliness happening. What I'm questioning is whether more can be done to make it less ugly. I don't know... do you?
 
Jeez, the US spends billions and billions of dollars on a war to get its hands on all that oil in Iraq. BP dumps millions and millions of gallons of the stuff right on its doorstep and all you hear is moan, moan, moan!!!
 
rivrrat said:
What do the fines help? They're meant as a deterrent. It's not as if they are hunting these animals for profit. They're trying to clean up a mess that would likely have killed those same animals if they did NOT clean it up.

Look, I know BP screwed the pooch, but let's at least try to be fair.
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Fair to whom? Neither you, nor Rep. Barton, nor Rand Paul are going to make me feel sorry for BP. They wrecklessly went forward with a risky project with no backup plan in case something happened. Now, something has happened and this species of sea turtle - which is thousands of years older than mankind is on the brink of extinction. It was already at great risk but BP could be their final killer.

And that's on top of what it's done to the people whose lives are forever altered as a result of this.

I know that you're not really defending BP, but "be fair?" How about being fair to the people and animals whose lives are destroyed or forever altered?

This never should have happened. If BP were responsible, it wouldn't have.
 
rivrrat said:
They're trying to clean up a mess that would likely have killed those same animals if they did NOT clean it up.
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So they're guilty either way of the crime and should pay the price.
 
Middleground said:
I don't disagree with that. Sometimes what has to be done is not pretty. However all I was asking is, "can this be prevented?" Are there more measures that can be taken that less life be burned alive?
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That I'm not entirely sure of, I think it would be incredibly difficult because herding sea turtles would be more difficult than herding cats.
 
obvious Child said:
One aspect that supports Catz is that the fine is not something BP can delay payments on utilizing its the normal method. BP, like Exxon is going to appeal for decades the true payment on this disaster
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FWIW, Exxon was appealing punitive damages, not actual damages. They paid the full amount of actual damages in a relatively timely fashion. They were correct to appeal the punitive damages, as the lower courts used an improper method to calculate them.
 
RightinNYC said:
FWIW, Exxon was appealing punitive damages, not actual damages.
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True, but actual damages will take a while to sort out and can be challenged in court. BP will challenge the assumptions under actual damages for years. Furthermore, damages in the Gulf, especially to the livelihood of those who use the ocean are considerably more complex then the cost to Sound in Exxon's ciase. There's a lot room for BP to wiggle here and hence why I don't see them having a problem actually payng when you consider the time line of how long they have to spread out payments and their corresponding cash flows.
 
You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

I'm sorry about the turtles. I hate knowing that sea life is dying, but at least the life is dying as part of the clean up and not part of the spill. I'm sure if you tallied the total number of animals that have died because of the gush, it would shock everyone.
 
apdst said:
How so??

Worse than...what??
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Briefly:

Aside from the massive cost, the question of whether or not it would even WORK, if they could even be done in time (oil is already hitting the coasts and the project would take 6 months or more), the potential for erosion in merely a couple of months, and the question of where the hell they're going to get 56 million cubic yards of high quality sand withOUT deepening waterways that would increase hurricane intensity and without destroying entire habitats of bottom dwelling creatures necessary to sustain countless other wildlife.... one must also consider that the sand berms will disrupt the tidal flow necessary to sustain the very wildlife and habitats they are trying to save. Not to mention the possibility that narrowing those tidal channels could cause the oil to shoot further inland than it would if the berms were not built and then possibly trap the oil there. When you restrict the area in which water is flowing, you increase the force of the flow.

There's just more to consider than sand and oil.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...alts-sand-berm-dredging-2.html#post1058819529
 
Middleground said:
I don't disagree with that. Sometimes what has to be done is not pretty. However all I was asking is, "can this be prevented?" Are there more measures that can be taken that less life be burned alive?
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There are people working on the cleanup who believe that BP is covering up the loss of life with these severely endangered animals, and that more could in fact be done to protect the turtles.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
There are people working on the cleanup who believe that BP is covering up the loss of life with these severely endangered animals, and that more could in fact be done to protect the turtles.
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Oh HELL yes!

We all gotta do something and "SAVE THE TURTLES."

Oh the humanity,....

Yours is a worthy and noble cause.
 
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The entire claim of burning sea turtles in the oil burns sounds hoaky to me. What's to keep the sea turtles from simply swimming under the burns into clear water?
 
I think some people are confused.

BP is: Rounding up OIL and burning off the OIL.
Animals are: getting rounded up WITH the OIL and being burned WITH the OIL.

BP is not finding the animals *just* to kill them.
The guy in the OParticle was saving the turtles from the burn-field before the field was set on fire . . . and now is not allowed to do so.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I think some people are confused.

BP is: Rounding up OIL and burning off the OIL.
Animals are: getting rounded up WITH the OIL and being burned WITH the OIL.

BP is not finding the animals *just* to kill them.
The guy in the OParticle was saving the turtles from the burn-field before the field was set on fire . . . and now is not allowed to do so.
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But.... what's to keep the sea turtles from swimming under the berms and into the sea???
 
Gill said:
But.... what's to keep the sea turtles from swimming under the berms and into the sea???
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It might be the nature of the berm itself - size, depth it goes to, etc. But I believe it's due to these other reasons:

Turtles breath air - though they have an extremely high lung capacity and dive-depth like Penguins and Whales.

In the water which is riddled with oil (oil isn't just on the surface) the oxygen content is dropping *in* the water itself which means (confirmed) oxygen level depletion.

This means that air-breathing animals have to come to the surface more often to breath.

Once on the surface they get thoroughly coated with oil.

This might hinder their ability to swim (can swim as fast) and can't dive as deep (lack of use of flippers, etc)

As well as oil and chemical toxicity - I imagine it's not safe and sound - they're likely suffering from effects of intoxication, not just oil-coated flippers and oxygen levels being depleted - but intoxication in their bloodstream due to content of the water/oil/chemical dispersants.

Therefor the surface seems, to a turtle, to be the smartest idea - the thought of diving deep to possibly leave the area simply might be out of their capacity - especially if the oil surrounds them in a large area.

Let's say a turtle is on the oily surface - realizes it's a bad place to be - and then dives to try to get away - comes up 40 feet away - in more oil. Then dives again - comes up in more oil.
How far, how deep does an animal have to swim to get away from it? At what point will that animal become too exhausted/sick to continue?

Birds that fly are also getting caught up in this tragedy - why can't they just fly away? Same thing - physical changes. Oil is thick, sticky and gooey - like a really thick syrup.

Animals aren't exposed to enough oil-spills to adapt. They can avoid other various natural disasters (fire, earthquake, etc) to a more successful degree because they happen frequently enough to adapt to those conditions and respond in the best way to avoid tragedy. but oil-spills don't happen often enough for a species to adapt and then pass that adaptation down to the offspring - which is why oil spills are so tragic.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
It might be the nature of the berm itself - size, depth it goes to, etc. But I believe it's due to these other reasons:

Turtles breath air - though they have an extremely high lung capacity and dive-depth like Penguins and Whales.

In the water which is riddled with oil (oil isn't just on the surface) the oxygen content is dropping *in* the water itself which means (confirmed) oxygen level depletion.

This means that air-breathing animals have to come to the surface more often to breath.

Once on the surface they get thoroughly coated with oil.

This might hinder their ability to swim (can swim as fast) and can't dive as deep (lack of use of flippers, etc)

As well as oil and chemical toxicity - I imagine it's not safe and sound - they're likely suffering from effects of intoxication, not just oil-coated flippers and oxygen levels being depleted - but intoxication in their bloodstream due to content of the water/oil/chemical dispersants.

Therefor the surface seems, to a turtle, to be the smartest idea - the thought of diving deep to possibly leave the area simply might be out of their capacity - especially if the oil surrounds them in a large area.
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You could be right, but the floating oil berms I've seen only go down in the water a couple of feet at most.
 
Gill said:
You could be right, but the floating oil berms I've seen only go down in the water a couple of feet at most.
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Well - the rest of my post concerns reason why they can't swim down, can't swim away.
They're sick, they're not getting enough oxygen and they don't have the energy and knowledge to fight it and flee.

They're on teh surface trying to breath and survive and long comes something big and drags them around - why do you think they have the concept of "this is only 2' deep in the water, I can swim away' ???

They're animals

That being said - there's no telling how many (or how few) have actually, successfully, gotten away - the numbers being killed might be small in comparison. . . sadly, several sea turtle species are endangered - there aren't many numbers to play around with.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
It might be the nature of the berm itself - size, depth it goes to, etc. But I believe it's due to these other reasons:

Turtles breath air - though they have an extremely high lung capacity and dive-depth like Penguins and Whales.

In the water which is riddled with oil (oil isn't just on the surface) the oxygen content is dropping *in* the water itself which means (confirmed) oxygen level depletion.

This means that air-breathing animals have to come to the surface more often to breath.

Once on the surface they get thoroughly coated with oil.

This might hinder their ability to swim (can swim as fast) and can't dive as deep (lack of use of flippers, etc)

As well as oil and chemical toxicity - I imagine it's not safe and sound - they're likely suffering from effects of intoxication, not just oil-coated flippers and oxygen levels being depleted - but intoxication in their bloodstream due to content of the water/oil/chemical dispersants.

Therefor the surface seems, to a turtle, to be the smartest idea - the thought of diving deep to possibly leave the area simply might be out of their capacity - especially if the oil surrounds them in a large area.

Let's say a turtle is on the oily surface - realizes it's a bad place to be - and then dives to try to get away - comes up 40 feet away - in more oil. Then dives again - comes up in more oil.
How far, how deep does an animal have to swim to get away from it? At what point will that animal become too exhausted/sick to continue?

Birds that fly are also getting caught up in this tragedy - why can't they just fly away?

Animals aren't exposed to enough oil-spills to adapt. They can avoid other various natural disasters (fire, earthquake, etc) to a more successful degree because they happen frequently enough to adapt to those conditions and respond in the best way to avoid tragedy. but oil-spills don't happen often enough for a species to adapt and then pass that adaptation down to the offspring - which is why oil spills are so tragic.
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I'm not belittling the tragedy, but air breathing animals such as turtles, whales, dolphins, etc, don't use the water for air consumption. So the decrease in O2 in the water would not affect their breathing. It wouldn't make them come to the surface any sooner since they get their air from the surface and rely upon that single breath the whole time they are down.

However, the low oxygen levels cause other problems, such as killing anemones, sea stars, sea cucumbers, crabs, fish, etc.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Well - the rest of my post concerns reason why they can't swim down, can't swim away.
They're sick, they're not getting enough oxygen and they don't have the energy and knowledge to fight it and flee.

They're on teh surface trying to breath and survive and long comes something big and drags them around - why do you think they have the concept of "this is only 2' deep in the water, I can swim away' ???

They're animals

That being said - there's no telling how many (or how few) have actually, successfully, gotten away - the numbers being killed might be small in comparison. . . sadly, several sea turtle species are endangered - there aren't many numbers to play around with.
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Admit it... it's all the sea turtles' fault. They're just blaming BP because they hate America.
 
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