• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

McChrystal relieved of his command.

What part of "they were out of line" is confusing you my friend? :lamo
Yes, it is confusing, actually. Considering that the question I asked is "Do you think McChrystal's comments were disrespectful," your answer that they were "out of line" just reads as another dodge. A clever one, but still a dodge.


and why not? simple case precedence. :shrug:

Got a citation for me?
 
Sometimes you guys EPITOMIZE the encyclopedia definition of FACE-PALM in your myopic defense of your ideological leader.

Several quick things:

1. Disagreement with General McChrystal's actions is not the same thing as having support for or commitment to President Obama's ideology.
2. Highlighting what apparently is an indication of a core leadership deficiency in subsequent information has nothing to do with President Obama. Professor Kotter's work on leadership, from which I drew one example (aligning/understanding who is relevant) stands on its academic merits. It is not a superficial political work.
3. I expressed my position on what is now the current strategy in Afghanistan here at DP prior to its development. I noted what I believed to be its central flaw (Kabul-centric nature) at the time it was announced. One can find two of the relevant links here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/asia-...-supply-convoy-pakistan-2.html#post1058819040 . Therefore, it is rather absurd to characterize my positions as expressing support for my "ideological leader," especially as I do not believe the strategy in place is the right one.

You Just said "The Administration's responsibility is that it approved General McChrystal's strategy". Really? Thats BEING IN CHARGE?

In any organization, whether it is the CEO, the partner, or in the case of the U.S. Government, the President, the person who approves a strategy (not necessarily the same thing as the one who designs it) is accountable for his/her decisions and choices.

Is it a GOOD strategy? Is it working?

As noted earlier, and one can also reference the message to which I provided the hyperlink, I do not believe the current strategy is a good one. It rests on a foundation that undermines prospects for success. Moreover, early indications are that it is not working in a fashion required to meet the objectives set forth from the time it was implemented to July 2011. My argument, unlike that of those who have been describing the events as 'unanticipated,' is that the results are a direct consequence of the strategy's flaws. That General McChrystal said that it was taking longer than expected to gain the support of the tribal leaders is a direct result of the strategy's focusing on the Karzai regime at the expense of the tribal leaders. Delegating control over resource allocation, security decisions, and decision making to a provincial, corrupt, and incompetent regime that is widely viewed as illegitimate and has demonstrated a persistent preference for pursuing self-interest rather than addressing the needs of local areas, much less Afghanistan as a whole, is no way to win the support and trust of the tribal leaders. In short, the result is exactly what should have been expected.

Why is there animosity between the Afghan War commanders entire staff and the administration? Could there ACTUALLY be some fault in the administration that needs addressing???

Of course there is. Effective leaders would directly and privately raise concerns/objections, offer insights, provide suggestions in a proper fashion with the key players. They would not, I repeat not, go complaining through the media, much less in a fashion that puts those players in a negative light. They would not have their staffs making disparaging or worse remarks about the key players who are integral to ensuring that things get done, much less one of the players who had a correct read on the situation from the onset. They would make sure that they have good working relationships with key players, not have an all but non-functional relationship with some of those players. That is not leadership. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happened.

There is nothing magical or novel about notions that leaders need to be able to work effectively with those who are relevant or that they must inspire and nurture confidence and trust. That General McChrystal apparently lacked such basic insight is not the President's personal shortcoming. The President might have his own shortcomings, and he bears a degree of responsibility for having chosen General McChrystal for a task for which he appears increasingly to have been unprepared, but General McChrystal's lack of adequate leadership ability is the general's own issue.

In fact, the situation appears to have been a classic case of asking what amounted to an organization's top salesperson (special operations commander in the general's case) to take charge of its marketing operations (military operations in Afghanistan, in this case). The skill sets for success in each area have some overlap, but there are significant differences as well. In the former, one needs to be able to powerfully promote the attributes of a product or service to a customer's needs (address narrow and specific objectives related to special forces missions and work with a relatively small number of highly-trained operatives). In the latter, one needs to be able to relate a much broader range of activities to the organization's mission, goals, and objectives (the overarching strategy in Afghanistan, large numbers of troops, military and civilian leaders, etc.). The general was clearly outstanding with his special operations work. Unfortunately, he was not outstanding when it came to leadership, otherwise there would have been no Rolling Stone piece and his relationships with, among others, Amb. Eikenberry and Richard Holbrooke would have been rock solid.

Oh...we SEE the pattern. Obama is in charge of the gulf oil spill...has been since DAY ONE...OK...so its in its THIRD ****ING MONTH and its still gushing 60 THOUSAND barrels of oil a DAY...but they are IN CHARGE and giving BP what they want...And they are in charge of the budget. And spending. And unemployment. And the housing crisis.

That the President may have his own issues, challenges, and problems to address and may not be handling all of the issues in the most effective fashion, is an entirely separate matter from General McChrystal's issues. Addressing the general's apparent deficits does not mean that the President is anything close to perfect or effective.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it is confusing, actually. Considering that the question I asked is "Do you think McChrystal's comments were disrespectful," your answer that they were "out of line" just reads as another dodge. A clever one, but still a dodge.




I can't help you then, its not a yes or no question. for example here at dp, calling you a partisan hack (i'm not currently) is not dissrespectful enought to get you gigged. calling you an incompetent asshole (I'm not) is.... It's a matter of degrees.

I don't think that the generals comments are "Dissrespectful" enough to merit charges. Obama agrees.



Got a citation for me?



your own posts. :shrug:
 
I can't help you then, its not a yes or no question. for example here at dp, calling you a partisan hack (i'm not currently) is not dissrespectful enought to get you gigged. calling you an incompetent asshole (I'm not) is.... It's a matter of degrees.

I don't think that the generals comments are "Dissrespectful" enough to merit charges. Obama agrees.

Heres's a good quote I found that might shed some more light on it:

Contemptuous Speech Against the President said:
During World War I, a soldier was convicted of using contemptuous words against Congress merely because he stated that “the United States had no business to enter this war . . . .” Aldrich, supra note 6, at 1200 (citing Flentje, CM 114159 (1918), and noting that the legal commentator found this conviction to be shocking).
[...]
Aldrich, supra note 6, at 1199. The referenced definition defined contemptuous as “manifesting, feeling or expressing contempt or disdain,” and further defined
contempt as “the act of despising or the state of mind of one who despises . . . the condition of having no respect, concern, or regard for something . . . the state of
being despised.” Id. (citing WEBSTER’S THIRD NEW INTERNATIONAL DICTIONARY 491 (1981)). Under this definition, the Article would be limited to instances when a
service member exhibited no respect, but in prior courts-martial the military has applied a considerably more liberal standard of what constituted contemptuous words.
Id. at 1199-1200 (citations omitted).
That's from a law review article written by an army JAG lawyer that you can read here.
 
Heres's a good quote I found that might shed some more light on it:


That's from a law review article written by an army JAG lawyer that you can read here.
The guy is gone now, what else do you want?????
 
The guy is gone now, what else do you want?????

This discussion is really just academic. No court martial is likely going to be pursued because of political reasons, that much is obvious.
 
Last edited:
This discussion is really just academic. No court martial is likely going to be pursued because of political reasons, that much is obvious.

No court martial would be indicated based on the facts either. His career is over, it's plenty. The good he did this country far outweighs the mistakes he has made.
 
No court martial would be indicated based on the facts either. His career is over, it's plenty. The good he did this country far outweighs the mistakes he has made.

It's nice of you to say that and everything but why? So far I a haven't seen any real reason why "no court martial would be indicated." What is your basis for saying that? Sure, it wouldn't be smart for Obama, I grant that. I get that it's not going to happen, but it's because of politics. McChrystal's a bigwig, Obama doesn't have the political capital to waste going after him. But if Obama did go after McChrystal, no court martial would be able to find him innocent of an Article 88 violation, that much is clear. The good he did for this country doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for his misdeeds. Benedict Arnold did a lot of good for this country too, does that mean he shouldn't have been punished? And before you jump on that Hellhound, no I'm not saying McChrystal's mistake was anywhere near as grave as Arnold's, but both should meet with justice.


Well, the discussion's been over with you since you dodged the question about whether or not McChrystal was disrespectful. But just because you avoided painting yourself into a corner doesn't mean you won the debate. I'm still open to discuss it with you, though.
 
Last edited:
Court martial are for serious misconduct. This is not.
 
Well, most people familiar with military law would be inclined to disagree with your that these statements are not serious enough for a court martial, specifically the United States Court of Military Appeals. US v. Howe was over a sign at a protest by a guy who was out of uniform and in a crowd. I wonder what they'd have to say about a General badmouthing a President in Rolling Stone.
 
Well, most people familiar with military law would be inclined to disagree with your that these statements are not serious enough for a court martial, specifically the United States Court of Military Appeals. US v. Howe was over a sign at a protest by a guy who was out of uniform and in a crowd. I wonder what they'd have to say about a General badmouthing a President in Rolling Stone.

Many/most violations of the UCMJ are handled at the command level with NJP. Court Martials are relatively rare.
 
Well, most people familiar with military law would be inclined to disagree with your that these statements are not serious enough for a court martial, specifically the United States Court of Military Appeals. US v. Howe was over a sign at a protest by a guy who was out of uniform and in a crowd. I wonder what they'd have to say about a General badmouthing a President in Rolling Stone.

What is it that the General specifically said about President Obama? For there to be a court martial, someone has to officially charge him with a crime.
 
Well, most people familiar with military law would be inclined to disagree with your that these statements are not serious enough for a court martial, specifically the United States Court of Military Appeals. US v. Howe was over a sign at a protest by a guy who was out of uniform and in a crowd. I wonder what they'd have to say about a General badmouthing a President in Rolling Stone.

Why do you keep parading around "court martial?" Do you really think a General is going to be Court Martialed? It's not going to happen. It was never going to happen. Why are you so invested in this anyway?
 
Last edited:
You gotta be kidding. Based on what?

Question: should he have left him in command?

I do agree that he should not be court-martialed, but he needed to be replaced.
 
Question: should he have left him in command?

I do agree that he should not be court-martialed, but he needed to be replaced.
The is no violation of the UCMJ on McChrystal part, he quoted nothing that is worthy of charges.
 
The is no violation of the UCMJ on McChrystal part, he quoted nothing that is worthy of charges.

I think you misread my statement. I agree that he NOT be court-martialed, but I do think he should have been replaced my quote:

I do agree that he should not be court-martialed, but he needed to be replaced.
 
I think you misread my statement. I agree that he NOT be court-martialed, but I do think he should have been replaced my quote:
Sorry I did misread your post, and as for dismissing him I agree, although embedded media within the military ranks and it's policy should he changed. Obiviously there is a problem between the commanders and the commander and chief which over all effects the moral of the military which in turn causes casualities.
 
What is it that the General specifically said about President Obama? For there to be a court martial, someone has to officially charge him with a crime.

While he may not have said anything directly that bad about President Obama, what he did was encourage, support, and agree with others who were using contemptous words against the elected and appointed officials. Take for example his aide says: "Vice President bite me" and McChrystal says: "I agree with that statement", General McChrystal didn't say the disparaging remarks himself, all he said is "I agree with that statement" which the words themself are not bad. But it's pretty much as if he said "Vice President bite me" himself. What McChrystal did was agree with, support, and also encourage these "contemptuous words" among his subordinates and appointed aides against these officials. What McChrystal did was insubordination and disrespectful of the President of the United States along with the other elected and appointed officials, although he may not have used the words directly. Although article 88 doesn't include anything than using contemptuous words against the officials, the spirit of the provision is probably not to allow disrespect and insubordination against these officials and I personally think the article should be expanded to include not allowing anyone to disrepect or insubordinate against these officials and not just use "contemptuous words" against them. What General McChrystal did was wrong, maybe he wasn't specifically caught by article 88, but what he did was wrong.
 
While he may not have said anything directly that bad about President Obama, what he did was encourage, support, and agree with others who were using contemptous words against the elected and appointed officials. Take for example his aide says: "Vice President bite me" and McChrystal says: "I agree with that statement", General McChrystal didn't say the disparaging remarks himself, all he said is "I agree with that statement" which the words themself are not bad. But it's pretty much as if he said "Vice President bite me" himself. What McChrystal did was agree with, support, and also encourage these "contemptuous words" among his subordinates and appointed aides against these officials. What McChrystal did was insubordination and disrespectful of the President of the United States along with the other elected and appointed officials, although he may not have used the words directly. Although article 88 doesn't include anything than using contemptuous words against the officials, the spirit of the provision is probably not to allow disrespect and insubordination against these officials and I personally think the article should be expanded to include not allowing anyone to disrepect or insubordinate against these officials and not just use "contemptuous words" against them. What General McChrystal did was wrong, maybe he wasn't specifically caught by article 88, but what he did was wrong.

In which case isn't punishable under the UCMJ.
 
In which case isn't punishable under the UCMJ.

Encouraging the behavior could very well fall under Conduct Unbecoming, however, I wouldn't seek it against this General. I think the way it is being handled is just fine. He resigned, no further action should be sought IMO.
 
Just another hater of our military from the left, nothing more, nothing less..........

Just another bit of hysteria with no basis in fact from the right.................
 
Back
Top Bottom