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After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

winston53660 said:
Which peice of science is that?
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The one I just spelled out for you, duh :roll: You even just quoted it.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
The one I just spelled out for you, duh :roll: You even just quoted it.
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Uhhhm that is not science and as far as can tell through out history marriage has been pretty much about property rights.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

winston53660 said:
Uhhhm that is not science and as far as can tell through out history marriage has been pretty much about property rights.
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You don't consider Sociology to be a science? Wow.

News for ya, but the lil piece of Sociology called "cultural universal": I didn't make that one up.
 
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Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
Oh that's right, I just made up what every culture has used marriage for. It was all me.

It's a little thing called "cultural universal". Everyone has language and uses it for the same thing. Everyone produces music on the same topics and for the same resons. Funerals are about marking the end of life. Everyone has some kind of philosophical outlook. Marriage is about the raising and socializing of children.

But yeah, sure, I just made this up. It couldn't possibly be that there's a lil piece of science out there which supports my view. It must be imaginary :roll:
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The problem with your argument is that you are trying to contend that raising children is the only/most important purpose of marriage according to state law, any US state law. This is not true. You may not be the only person to believe that raising children is an important part of marriage, but it is not the legal reason for marriage. The legal reason for marriage is what is important in this argument. What you and even many others may want to be the reason for marriage is not as important as what the government's actual legal reason for marriage is. The government allows marriages between opposite sex couples who can't have their own children, who don't plan on raising children, and/or who just never do raise children during their marriage. If you want to convince someone that this should change, fine. But the support for raising children to be a stipulation of marriage is not going to be as high as you may believe. As I said earlier, there are a lot of people who are completely against same sex marriage for whatever reason, but who would not give up their own rights to marriage if they could not have/raise children with the person they wished to be married to. And there is still the question of where the line is drawn in marriages and how and when do you legally dissolve a marriage in which the couple is not raising children? What happens when all of their children have been raised? Is the couple's marriage automatically dissolved once their last child turns 18? What if the child is mentally disabled? Is that the only case where a couple gets to remain together into their golden years?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

roguenuke said:
The problem with your argument is that you are trying to contend that raising children is the only/most important purpose of marriage according to state law, any US state law.
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Uh, no, try again. My argument is not 'legal rational' in that I'm arguing from the law. I argue the traditional authority angle, stating that "marriage" is about what it has always been about.

Now quick, accuse me of being against gay marriage even though that's not true either. Quick quick I'm getting away :lol:
 
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Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
I argue the traditional authority angle, stating that "marriage" is about what it has always been about.
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No, because if you were, you would be arguing marriage is about property. That has been what marriage has been about through "tradition".
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
Uh, no, try again. My argument is not 'legal rational' in that I'm arguing from the law. I argue the traditional authority angle, stating that "marriage" is about what it has always been about.

Now quick, accuse me of being against gay marriage even though that's not true either. Quick quick I'm getting away :lol:
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As was stated by others, marriage has been about property rights over mainly women, not children. Although it is well known that many cultures allowed a man to divorce his wife if she couldn't provide him with progeny, marriages were not automatically dissolved just because a couple did not have children. In fact, many men would stay married to a wife who couldn't provide him with children but would take on a mistress, or more, instead who might provide him with bastard children. Can you name a current culture where the couple is forced to have their marriage dissolved, against their will, because they aren't raising children? Do you know of some from the past? How many?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

roguenuke said:
As was stated by others, marriage has been about property rights over mainly women, not children. Although it is well known that many cultures allowed a man to divorce his wife if she couldn't provide him with progeny, marriages were not automatically dissolved just because a couple did not have children. In fact, many men would stay married to a wife who couldn't provide him with children but would take on a mistress, or more, instead who might provide him with bastard children. Can you name a current culture where the couple is forced to have their marriage dissolved, against their will, because they aren't raising children? Do you know of some from the past? How many?
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So just to be clear, you're saying that sociology is crap, esentialy.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
You don't consider Sociology to be a science? Wow.

News for ya, but the lil piece of Sociology called "cultural universal": I didn't make that one up.
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Okay well convince me on it.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Yes I'm being obtuse because you could just wiki it at least but if you won't put in even the slightest bit of effort then neither will I.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
You can read about it the same place I did:

Amazon.com: Sociology Now Value Package (includes MySocLab CourseCompass with…

The 100 level class I attended as part of my degree program was conducted by a BHSU professor who instructs at the 400 level and operates a practice. Please excuse me if I take his word over yours.
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You send me to a link that costs a 131 bucks? Hmmm lets get back to property rights mmmm kay
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jerry said:
So just to be clear, you're saying that sociology is crap, esentialy.
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Can your point be absolutely proven by sociology? From what I know of history, it can't be proven that most civilizations considered a marriage invalid, against the couple's wishes, when the couple were not raising a child or after a couple had raised their children. Again can you name some, especially some that influenced our own society and/or some current ones?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

winston53660 said:
You send me to a link that costs a 131 bucks? Hmmm lets get back to property rights mmmm kay
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Hey I not only had to pay the $130, but I also had to go through the class. You're getting off easy. If I still had the book I could post pics of the pages, but I don't.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

roguenuke said:
Can your point be absolutely proven by sociology? From what I know of history, it can't be proven that most civilizations considered a marriage invalid, against the couple's wishes, when the couple were not raising a child or after a couple had raised their children. Again can you name some, especially some that influenced our own society and/or some current ones?
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It was a 100 level intro coarse, I don't think it went into as much detail as you're looking for. I think you're looking for 300-400 level material. This text book simply states the existence of "cultural universal" to be true, gives a few specific examples of marriage and other universals in other cultures and times, and references source material in the back.

I think you're looking for an exhaustive review of the source material itself. Such a rich and in-depth review was not within the scope of that course.

As I said before, marriage takes many forms but is always about the same thing. Gay marriage is perfectly acceptable as yet another variant on the theme, but that means it has to be of the same theme.

Even in Greek and Feudal Japan when gay relationships were the accepted norm, "marriage" was about the socializing of children. Even where the legalities of marriage treated women as property, marriage was about the socializing of children (even though today we disagree with many of the things those children were raised to believe to be acceptable). The whole purpose in controlling marriage was to direct who the children would grow up to be.
 
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Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Navy Pride said:
There is no right to marriage.........Its a privilege that every man and woman in this country have.......Gays want a special privilege........
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Equal rights are not special rights.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

disneydude said:
Equal rights are not special rights.
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It's pretty hilarious how he describes marriage as both a privilege "that every man and woman" has and a "special privilege" that gays want.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

disneydude said:
Equal rights are not special rights.
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This cannot be said enough.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

disneydude said:
Equal rights are not special rights.
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They have the same rights I do.....Like polygamists they want a special right.........
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Navy Pride said:
They have the same rights I do.....Like polygamists they want a special right.........
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They want equal rights under the premise of "All men are created equal..."

We're either equal or we're not.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jetboogieman said:
They want equal rights under the premise of "All men are created equal..."

We're either equal or we're not.
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All men created equal never included sexual orientation in any part of the Constution.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

texmaster said:
All men created equal never included sexual orientation in any part of the Constution.
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It didn't originally include race either but that changed over time.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

jallman said:
It didn't originally include race either but that changed over time.
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Because race is a proven genetic trait.

Sexual orientation is not.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Jetboogieman said:
They want equal rights under the premise of "All men are created equal..."

We're either equal or we're not.
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Like me they have equal rights......They can marry anyone of the opposite sex...Like Polygamists they want special rights......-
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

texmaster said:
Because race is a proven genetic trait.

Sexual orientation is not.
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So where in the constitution is the requirement that genetic traits are the only protection worthy class?
 
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