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After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Yes, there is a difference that makes GM different from the red herrings. The argument for gay marriage is that it is not harmfull(and as such the government should not disallow it), and that it is beneficial to society in providing stability both for the couple, but also for any children of that couple. I looked the numbers up recently for another thread, and roughly 1/3 of lesbian couples have a child living with them for a portion of the time, and 1/4 of gay male couples, and this number is rising.

Incestuous relationships can probably be argued as harmful(I am not particularly knowledgeable on the subject, so it's a guess), and I believe that polygamist relationships are not believed to be stable environments for raising children.

There you go. Those are good arguments in favor of same sex marriage that don't start us on the slippery slope. The problem is, as long as people argue that people should be allowed to marry whomever they want, that slippery slope is going to be there-- and that argument continues to be an integral part of most peoples' arguments in favor of same sex marriage. As much as I support same sex marriage (and even polygamy), I am much more opposed to establishing a legal precedent in which marriage to any consenting adult is considered either a simple contract or a matter of civil rights.

Why is it hypocrisy to support one thing, and not support different things?

It isn't hypocritical to support same sex marriage and oppose incest and polygamy. It's hypocritical to say that consenting adults should be able to marry anyone they want, even if the majority is morally opposed to it, and then make exceptions for couples whose marriages you are morally opposed to.

As far as the state is concerned, marriage is a license you have to apply for. Couples need this license to have a ceremony and then qualify for certain legal rights and privileges. Gay couples would like to apply for this license and then get these privileges.

And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with expanding the institution of marriage to include same sex couples. It's expanding it any further than that that I object to, and as long as the arguments in favor of expanding marriage to include same sex couples would also logically apply to other prohibited couples, I feel obligated to oppose them.

The way I see it, we have the right to do anything and everything that we want, until the government can show a compelling reason why they shouldn't allow me.

Thing is, marriage isn't something individuals do. It's something the State does to benefit those individuals, in order to encourage behavior that benefits society. In order to convince the State to perform marriage for different types of couples, those couples-- and people who advocate on their behalf-- should be able to show that doing so would likewise be beneficial to society.

"But Deuce, you're not even gay, why do you care? Why would you want the right to marry a dude?"

"The same reason I don't own a gun but want the right to own a gun: It's none of your damned business!"

What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is not the State's business. What two consenting adults do in public, in the courtroom, absolutely is.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

There you go. Those are good arguments in favor of same sex marriage that don't start us on the slippery slope. The problem is, as long as people argue that people should be allowed to marry whomever they want, that slippery slope is going to be there-- and that argument continues to be an integral part of most peoples' arguments in favor of same sex marriage. As much as I support same sex marriage (and even polygamy), I am much more opposed to establishing a legal precedent in which marriage to any consenting adult is considered either a simple contract or a matter of civil rights.

I do not make that argument though. I make the argument that gay people should be allowed to marry for the reasons I explained.

It isn't hypocritical to support same sex marriage and oppose incest and polygamy. It's hypocritical to say that consenting adults should be able to marry anyone they want, even if the majority is morally opposed to it, and then make exceptions for couples whose marriages you are morally opposed to.

That is not my argument, so there is no hypocrisy.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Here's a post that I wrote a while back, logically demonstrating how the GM to polygamous marriage scenario are NOT consistent and are very different things:

But, you see, this entire, "if we allow homosexual marriage, polygamy is next" argument is extraordinarily weak, considering that the similarities between the two do not exist. Allow me to explain from both an individual and a societal standpoint.

First. let us take a look at the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The striking difference is obvious. Homosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the same sex, whereas heterosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the opposite sex. Why would a heterosexual woman want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Why would a homosexual man want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Clearly, from an individual standpoint, this is a, if not the main reason for one wanting to marry a specific other. Love, attraction, emotion. Now, this does not justify gay marriage being validated, and, in fact is a weak argument that I never make. Love, attraction, and emotion does not benefit the state, which is why marriage exists. However, polygamy does not fit well in the criteria that I have identified. There is no polygamous sexual orientation. Polygamy is, typically, a heterosexual orientation, covered already. However, being that there is no polygamous sexual orientation, using this, a mainstay of the individual reason for marriage, will not work or apply. Therefore, polygamy from an individual standpoint, does not meet the same criteria for marriage as do homosexuals or heterosexuals. Lack of orientation.

Now, we move into the societal realm. Government supports marriage for a few reasons. The productive rearing of children is most important. Creating a stable family life is also key: it adds to the positive potential for healthy children, but it also creates healthy adults. There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that those who live in a healthy, stable, committed relationship, are happier, healthier, and are more productive members of society. These are all things that benefit the state. Research shows that, regardless of sexual orientation, gay or straight, folks who live in these kinds of committed relationships, do better, and rear children better, than those who do not. This is regardless of sexual orientation. This is the second piece of the argument that will, eventually win the day for gay marriage. Polygamy does not offer the same benefits. And the answer to "why" is simple, and is psychological in nature. Jealousy, rivalry, and inconsistency. Just like my argument that psychology cannot be separated from economics, hence, because of greed, pure forms of both socialism and libertarianism are destined to be complete failures, neither can human psychology be separated from this issue. What is the number one cause of divorce? Adultery. Why? Jealousy and rivalry. In a multi-partner marriage, it would be impossible for their not to be some sort of hierarchy, and even if this is agreed upon, one cannot eliminate one's emotions. With this type of emotional instability at the familial structure's core, a healthy, committed relationship, similar to that of a single partner marriage, could not be obtained. Further, the inconsistency in caretaking responsibilities and in child rearing responsibilities, compounded by the hierarchies and rivalries will harm the children, affecting their functioning. We already see some of this in divorced families, where inconsistent rules, non-existent co-parenting, and rivalries, negatively affect children.

Lastly, though there is plenty of research that supports both heterosexual and homosexual unions as being beneficial, there is none that supports polygamy.

All of this shows how there is not correlation nor slippery slope from homosexual to polygamous marriage. Polygamy, for the reasons I identified, is not only a very different animal than homosexual marriage, but has none of the similar benefits to the state that the government currently sees marriage as.

Polygamy as a reaction to homosexual marriage is a smokescreen and an invalid comparison.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

There you go. Those are good arguments in favor of same sex marriage that don't start us on the slippery slope. The problem is, as long as people argue that people should be allowed to marry whomever they want, that slippery slope is going to be there-- and that argument continues to be an integral part of most peoples' arguments in favor of same sex marriage. As much as I support same sex marriage (and even polygamy), I am much more opposed to establishing a legal precedent in which marriage to any consenting adult is considered either a simple contract or a matter of civil rights.



It isn't hypocritical to support same sex marriage and oppose incest and polygamy. It's hypocritical to say that consenting adults should be able to marry anyone they want, even if the majority is morally opposed to it, and then make exceptions for couples whose marriages you are morally opposed to.



And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with expanding the institution of marriage to include same sex couples. It's expanding it any further than that that I object to, and as long as the arguments in favor of expanding marriage to include same sex couples would also logically apply to other prohibited couples, I feel obligated to oppose them.



Thing is, marriage isn't something individuals do. It's something the State does to benefit those individuals, in order to encourage behavior that benefits society. In order to convince the State to perform marriage for different types of couples, those couples-- and people who advocate on their behalf-- should be able to show that doing so would likewise be beneficial to society.



What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is not the State's business. What two consenting adults do in public, in the courtroom, absolutely is.

And what state interest is furthered by preventing two men from getting married? Keeping in mind that same-sex couples have been scientifically shown to be just as stable for raising children as a heterosexual couple.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

LOL Riiight. And I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot.



Thsi is about legal justification for allowing gay marriage. I am addressing the false claim that the legal justification lies in the genetic argument. Try to keep up.



Nice dodge. Then explain your legal reasoning for allowing gay marriage. You can't compare it to race since that is genetic so what else you got?



You'd be surprised how many of your fellow gay marriage zealots deny this fact.



LOL First you claim everyone knows that heteroseuxality is the only way for natural procreation then you turn around and claim the biological sexual reaction that prepares for procreation isn't? What are you smoking? Don't hog it for yourself, that must be good stuff.



You're confused again. I understand. The point is it isn't different for either but only one has a biologicial natural function. Procreation which is only through heterosexuality.



I suggest you actually read the threads in here and the claims in this very thread because that claim is everywhere.



Well thank you Captain Obvious :D



I know its hard for you but please try and keep up. The same argument for gay marriage is being made that because someone gets their jollies off by finding a different hole that doesn't mean its genetic. I'm simply pointing to anyother method thats used for sexual gratification but no one is claiming its genetic either because that critieria doesn't justify the label.



Because the reaciton has a purpose, procreation, a purely heteroseuxal trait. Read slower.



Yes :D

I haven't seen anyone in this thread actually make any claims about genetics except your irrelevant claims...soooooo, are you having a problem understanding what's being said here and need someone to take some extra time to explain it to you or are you just intent on having your own conversation despite what everyone else is addressing?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

And what state interest is furthered by preventing two men from getting married?

None that I am aware of. My argument isn't against same sex marriage, it's against the self-contradictory notion that civil marriage is "none of the State's business."
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

None that I am aware of. My argument isn't against same sex marriage, it's against the self-contradictory notion that civil marriage is "none of the State's business."

The marriage is the state's business. Which particular person I choose to enter that contract with is not.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That doesn't make any sense at all.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn Law - Politics & Policy - Catholic Online

Read the article. Is the anti-homosexual marriage side defender on crack?

Seriously. Marriage is for making babies? Has he been living in a BOX for his whole life? If that's the best the anti-gay marriage side can do, gay marriage is coming a hell of a lot faster to this country then I initially believed.

Maggie was a year behind me in college. she was one of the women in "The Party of the Right" Some like Federalist founder Lee Liberman Otis are brilliant. Some of the men are truly gifted such as former acting US Attorney General Peter Keisler, NR editor Richard Brookhiser and Richard Vigilante. Maggie was sort of a second stringer. What she lacked in true brilliance she made up in acidity. At one time she dated Robert Bork's son Charles whose main claim to fame was appearing on the cover of soldier of fortune magazine firing a heavy machinegun while disguised as a mujahadin at the USSR in Afghanistan
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That doesn't make any sense at all.

So you think the state should be deciding which person you choose to marry? Perhaps we should get them to do a genetic analysis, decide who we are most statistically compatible with. State-decided arranged marriages for everyone!
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

So you think the state should be deciding which person you choose to marry?

No, but they're certainly well within their legitimate interests to tell you there are certain people you're not allowed to marry.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

No, but they're certainly well within their legitimate interests to tell you there are certain people you're not allowed to marry.

Yep. Minors being a good example.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Yep. Minors being a good example.

They're not consenting adults, though. I was thinking more along the lines of cousins.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

They're not consenting adults, though. I was thinking more along the lines of cousins.

Why cousins, exactly? What reasoning, I mean. What's so bad about it?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Why cousins, exactly? What reasoning, I mean. What's so bad about it?

One of the functions of marriage is cementing alliances between families. Incestuous marriage turns a family inward and isolates them from the community. It also wreaks havoc on family bonds by subjecting them to all the stresses inherent to sexual relationships.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

One of the functions of marriage is cementing alliances between families. Incestuous marriage turns a family inward and isolates them from the community. It also wreaks havoc on family bonds by subjecting them to all the stresses inherent to sexual relationships.

And how do those things apply to homosexuals?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

And how do those things apply to homosexuals?

Exactly how many times do you expect me to tell you that I have no objection to same sex marriage?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Exactly how many times do you expect me to tell you that I have no objection to same sex marriage?

I ask these questions not for you, but for the people out there who think they have some sort of rational basis for opposing same-sex marriage.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I can sit here and list sexual aberrations all day long. What's your point? Without good old doggy-style ****ing, the human race wouldn't get very far, would it? If you want to play the other way, that's your business. Don't expect me to call it a marriage.

Don't worry that's never going to go out of style. Heterosexuals won't give it up if we let homosexuals marry. I'm just saying. ;)
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

The marriage is the state's business. Which particular person I choose to enter that contract with is not.

"A bird may love a fish, but where would they live?" Tevye, in "Fiddler On The Roof"
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

"A bird may love a fish, but where would they live?" Tevye, in "Fiddler On The Roof"

Poor analogy. There are physical characteristics that prevent birds and fish from living in the same environment.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Poor analogy. There are physical characteristics that prevent birds and fish from living in the same environment.

That isn't even true. Ducks live in ponds along with fish.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That isn't even true. Ducks live in ponds along with fish.

That may be true, but I'm pretty confident that I know what he meant with his analogy. Therefore my post was correct in context.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Poor analogy. There are physical characteristics that prevent birds and fish from living in the same environment.

Hell, there are psychological factors that prevent me from living in the same environment as some of my exes. Doesn't mean we didn't give it our best shot.
 
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