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Oklahoma to Pass Laws Prohibiting Islamic Sharia Laws to Apply

Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Aunt Spiker said:
I agree that judges and legislatures (for that matter) within the US should only consider US law and precedent. That's just common sense.
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It's also dead wrong. US law isn't the only law that ought to be considered in American jurisprudence. And even the most conservative judges and justices regularly cite to foreign sources, and it's nothing new, they've been doing it since 1776. I wonder how gun rights activists will feel when this statute bars the citation of the Seymane's case, an English case that established the "Castle" doctrine ("A man's home is his castle.").

You can't ban foreign law because our law is rooted in "foreign" law, and you can't ban international law because international law is just as binding on the states as federal law. Not to mention that, as has been observed above, shari'a is automatically banned under the first amendment. Frankly, whoever wrote this law is out of their depth. It's only a matter of time before this nonsense gets struck down as an unconstitutional violation of the separation of powers.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

TheNextEra said:
Considering Sharia Law has not been implemented in any fashion in the United States Courts, your point is moot.

Pointing out this law bans Sharia Law from being implemented is nothing but grandstanding considering our constitution in the U.S. already prohibits Sharia law from being implemented.
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I agree that this law changes nothing at the moment. But don't feel it hurts anything to ensure a firm stance on how things should be handled if the issue arises. Why wait to implement a law after you have an issue, and after some damage has already been done. Implementing sharia law IS something that is being pushed for. I don't find it out of the possibility for a judge or group of judges trying to permit Sharia law for cultural sensitivity or under the guise that it denies muslims their freedom of religion. I mean agree or disagree with abortion, but it was given protection under the "right of privacy". Which obviously has nothing to do with allowing things like abortion. The point is if the supreme court wants to allow something, they'll find a part of the constitution to force it under. But then again the state law won't matter if the supreme court rules on it. This really only protects them from state judges.

I was simply responding to the comments that laws against Sharia law were racist and xenophobic. Not that we need to stop the current implementations of Sharia law. So no, it was not moot. I wish it were.
 
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Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

I can't even believe that this ban was necessary to begin with. THAT is what astounds me. Why in the HELL would a judge even consider international or religious laws when making a judgment in the US? The fact that the ban to stop them from doing such nonsense was necessary is what I find so bothersome.
 
jamesrage said:
I love the idea of this, if only such a law was enacted on the federal level. Of course I am sure some loons will say the proposed law is Islamic or xenophobic. But **** those loons, I am pretty sure that they have nothing to base their claim on. Foreign period law should have no bearing on a domestic case. I could care less if for example we decided to copy everyone one of Mexico's anti-illegal immigration laws, a judge should not look to see how Judges in Mexico handle those cases.

I find it odd that the title ABC used blatantly left out the the international laws being banned in their title, perhaps this is deliberate.


Oklahoma to Pass Laws Prohibiting Islamic Sharia Laws to Apply - ABC News

Oklahoma is poised to become the first state in the nation to ban state judges from relying on Islamic law known as Sharia when deciding cases.

The ban is a cornerstone of a "Save our State" amendment to the Oklahoma constitution that was recently approved by the Legislature.

The amendment -- which also would forbid judges from using international laws as a basis for decisions -- will now be put before Oklahoma's voters in November. Approval is expected.

snip....

The proposed Oklahoma amendment is aimed, in part, at "cases of first impression," legal disputes in which there is no law or precedent to resolve the matter at hand.

In such cases, judges might look to laws or rulings in other jurisdictions for guidance. The proposed amendment would block judges in Oklahoma courts from drawing on sharia, or the laws of other nations, in such decisions.

The amendment also is a response to what some conservatives see as a pernicious trend -- cases of liberal judges mostly notably Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, using foreign laws to shape their opinions in U.S. cases.

"It should not matter what France might do, what Great Britain might do, or what the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia might do," Duncan said. "Court decisions ought to be based on federal law, or state law."
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This is stupid. We don't need a law that says this, of course the government cannot rule by Sharia law. It's a secular government and we don't rule by the laws of gods, but rather the laws of man. This is really stupid, and only a show of interest against Muslims in general since the law has no real world worth or practicality. I don't know who would endorse such stupidity.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

rivrrat said:
I can't even believe that this ban was necessary to begin with. THAT is what astounds me. Why in the HELL would a judge even consider international or religious laws when making a judgment in the US? The fact that the ban to stop them from doing such nonsense was necessary is what I find so bothersome.
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There are a multitude of reasons why a judge would consider international law. It is done all the time. According to the SCOTUS in The Paquete Habana case, "international law is part of our law." More recently, In re Estate of Ferdinand E. Marcos Human Rights Litigation., "It is ... well settled that the law of nations is part of federal common law."

OK simply doesn't have the authority to do this.

Here's the proposed addition to the OK Constitution:
OK HJR 1056 said:
C. The Courts provided for in subsection A of this section, when exercising their judicial authority, shall uphold and adhere to the law as provided in the United States Constitution, the Oklahoma Constitution, the United States Code, federal regulations promulgated pursuant thereto, established common law, the Oklahoma Statutes and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, and if necessary the law of another state of the United States provided the law of the other state does not include Sharia Law, in making judicial decisions. The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider international law or Sharia Law. The provisions of this subsection shall apply to all cases before the respective courts including, but not limited to, cases of first impression.
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That is patently absurd. I hate to break it to you, Oklahoma, but International law is federal law. This is like OK trying to amend its constitution to say that the courts can't look to federal law. Literally.

As for Shari'a, I think this is just a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. If you think that there is a serious concern about the implementation of shari'a in US courts, you have too little faith in our first amendment. This addition to the OK constitution is just redundant, and considering how obviously unnecessary it is, it carries the strong odor of anti-Islamic sentiment. It is disingenuous to think otherwise.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Guy Incognito said:
There are a multitude of reasons why a judge would consider international law. It is done all the time. According to the SCOTUS in The Paquete Habana case, "international law is part of our law." More recently, In re Estate of Ferdinand E. Marcos Human Rights Litigation., "It is ... well settled that the law of nations is part of federal common law."

OK simply doesn't have the authority to do this.

Here's the proposed addition to the OK Constitution:


That is patently absurd. I hate to break it to you, Oklahoma, but International law is federal law. This is like OK trying to amend its constitution to say that the courts can't look to federal law. Literally.

As for Shari'a, I think this is just a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. If you think that there is a serious concern about the implementation of shari'a in US courts, you have too little faith in our first amendment. This addition to the OK constitution is just redundant, and considering how obviously unnecessary it is, it carries the strong odor of anti-Islamic sentiment. It is disingenuous to think otherwise.
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If the international law in question is a part of our federal law, then it's not just some other country's law, it's US Federal law. Which is beside the point.
 
Ikari said:
This is stupid. We don't need a law that says this, of course the government cannot rule by Sharia law. It's a secular government and we don't rule by the laws of gods, but rather the laws of man. This is really stupid, and only a show of interest against Muslims in general since the law has no real world worth or practicality. I don't know who would endorse such stupidity.
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Did anyone besides me and a few people read to the part that said "The proposed amendment would block judges in Oklahoma courts from drawing on sharia, or the laws of other nations, in such decisions."? Perhaps this is why ABC news only included Sharia law and not laws from other countries, they knew that the xenophobe and race card playing morons would not read past the title.
 
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Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Mcygee said:
But don't feel it hurts anything to ensure a firm stance on how things should be handled if the issue arises. Why wait to implement a law after you have an issue, and after some damage has already been done. Implementing sharia law IS something that is being pushed for.
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The situation hasn't come up because the U.S. Constitution prevents Sharia law from being implemented.

Shall we now have our lawmakers make laws that already exist on the books as well? Again, this is nothing more than grandstanding by mentioning Sharia law.

Now what should be touted is that the law prevents from using foreign law as a precedent. But as noticed by the title of the article and thread, this was not done.

This is just using fear tactics by saying this law prevents Sharia law from being used when it never has been or could be used in the U.S.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Redress said:
The difference being that the rest of those things do exist in those places. Sharia law in Oklahoma courts, not so much.
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Nor will it be in Oklahoma courts if it's banned as it was positioned as a preemtive move. For example, there's no reason that Sharia law would NOT be used if circumstances warranted it. Sure it seems a little ... left field but hey, so does the salt thing in NYC.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Ockham said:
Nor will it be in Oklahoma courts if it's banned as it was positioned as a preemtive move. For example, there's no reason that Sharia law would NOT be used if circumstances warranted it. Sure it seems a little ... left field but hey, so does the salt thing in NYC.
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It's already banned in our courts. We have 200 + years of laws and precedence that make up our legal system. This is nothing but grandstanding.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Ockham said:
Nor will it be in Oklahoma courts if it's banned as it was positioned as a preemtive move. For example, there's no reason that Sharia law would NOT be used if circumstances warranted it. Sure it seems a little ... left field but hey, so does the salt thing in NYC.
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Like the ten commandments are ?:lamo
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

Redress said:
It's already banned in our courts. We have 200 + years of laws and precedence that make up our legal system. This is nothing but grandstanding.
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Quite possible. But is sounds as if the State is allowed within the law to ban Sharia - so if passed by the state legislature, it's State sanctioned grandstanding.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

rivrrat said:
If the international law in question is a part of our federal law, then it's not just some other country's law, it's US Federal law. Which is beside the point.
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It's not at all beside the point, it is the point. The proposed amendment to the Oklahoma constitution prohibits courts from looking to "international law." What you yourself said was "why the hell are judges referring to international law." If the Oklahoma legislature meant that courts shouldn't consider domestic laws of foreign countries, then they should have said so. What they did say is that courts cannot "consider international law" which is clearly unconstitutional.
 
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jamesrage said:
Did anyone besides me and a few people read to the part that said "The proposed amendment would block judges in Oklahoma courts from drawing on sharia, or the laws of other nations, in such decisions."? Perhaps this is why ABC news only included Sharia law and not laws from other countries, they knew that the xenophobe and race card playing morons would not read past the title.
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I read it. It's still stupid and plays to the xenophobe and race card morons.
 
Ikari said:
I read it. It's still stupid and plays to the xenophobe and race card morons.
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How does it?

I'm not xenophobic - I'm not racist . . . and though I think it just common sense to *not* look at the laws and precedents in other countries, in fact, I *hope* that a judge wouldn't do that - I completely support this bill because, obviously, it's becoming a bit more common.

Sorry, we don't live in Iran, we don't live in France, we don't live in Israel - we shouldn't be judged by their rules.

you can get your freak-outs all a-twist, but that's not going to do any good.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
How does it?
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Because our courts cannot rule by religious doctrine. They can only rule by the laws of the land, man made rules. We do not allow Christian or Jewish law into our criminal court system. Why do you think there is fear that Islamic law will be implemented? There is no rational reason to believe so.
 
Ikari said:
Because our courts cannot rule by religious doctrine. They can only rule by the laws of the land, man made rules. We do not allow Christian or Jewish law into our criminal court system. Why do you think there is fear that Islamic law will be implemented? There is no rational reason to believe so.
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To me it's just common sense and rather sad that they have to define what laws can be used and applied and what can't.

Here's the text of the amendment in question:
C. The Courts provided for in subsection A of this section, when exercising their judicial authority, shall uphold and adhere to the law as provided in the United States Code, federal regulations promulgated pursuant thereto, established common law, the Oklahoma Statutes and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, and if necessary the law of another state of the United States provided the law of the other state does not include Sharia Law, in making judicial decisions. The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider international or Sharia Law. The provisions of this subsection shall apply to all cases before the respective courts including, but not limited to, cases of first impression.
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Aunt Spiker said:
To me it's just common sense and rather sad that they have to define what laws can be used and applied and what can't.
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Incorrect, Spiker. What's sad is that they the state legislature thinks they have the ability to define what laws can be used and applied and what can't. International law has a precise technical meaning, it is the law among nations that arises by treaties and international custom. It is the reason why, for example, international waters begin six miles off the coast.

International law is identical to federal law. States cannot limit the ability of courts to apply international law!

I am completely perplexed as to what it is about this concept that is so difficult to understand.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

PeteEU said:
Funny... So I am guessing that they will ban Jewish law and native American courts too right? If not, then it is another racist xenophobic attempt by the far right in the US.
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If you knew anything about our country, you would know that is no such thing as "Jewish law" and "native American courts". Everyone here, lives under one set of laws.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

apdst said:
If you knew anything about our country, you would know that is no such thing as "Jewish law" and "native American courts". Everyone here, lives under one set of laws.
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I can't speak to Jewish law, but you are incorrect about Native American courts. Tribal Courts do exist, and recognized Native American tribes and bands are considered sovereigns under United States law.
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

I think this law is a good thing and should be enacted on a federal level. Islam and Islamic law are not compatable with democracy. We should do everything posible to discourage muslims from practicing there oppressive system of law in the United States. Including passing laws that keep shria from creeping into our justice system. Better yet, muslims should not immigrate to the west at all. Better they stay in the hell holes whence they came. And if they were born here they should consider moving to an Islamic country far from freedom and liberty where they can submit totally to thier ****ed up god.
 
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Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

PeteEU said:
Funny... So I am guessing that they will ban Jewish law and native American courts too right? If not, then it is another racist xenophobic attempt by the far right in the US.
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I know why do those right wing Nazi racists want to ban a legal system which promotes wife beating, and death for apostasy and homosexuality. Those fascists. :roll: Here's a net, go catch a clue. ;)
 
Re: Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma

PeteEU said:
And that is exactly what Sharia law and those who want to use it have to do. Sharia law has been used in the US among the Muslim community for years if not centuries. As long as what they are doing is within the legal framework of the US justice system, then there is nothing to prevent them from doing it if both parties agree. It is no different than Jewish courts in the US, who use Jewish religious law in disputes such as divorce and financial matters.
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No different whatsoever, except I wasn't aware that Judaic Law still mandates the death penalty for apostasy and sodomy. I was likewise not aware that Judaic law still condoned and sanctioned wife beating. All five schools of Islamic jurisprudence promote those maxims it is the mainstream view, it has no place in this country or in the civilized world for that matter.
 
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