Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Andalublue said:

What you are witnessing is called a paradigm shift. When a tipping point is reached, the general perception of a situation switches, almost overnight, from one position to another, with no perceptible gentle drifting but a wholesale change from one view to another. This is a concept well described in the work of Thomas Kuhn.

The Economist is a centre-right, economically liberal, socially conservative magazine whose allegiances have little to do with religion, ethnicity or tradition and have everything to do with promoting the interests of global capital, because of (or despite) being part-owned by the Rothschild family. What they are reflecting is a watershed in the attitude of western capitalism towards the Israeli-American concensus on Middle Eastern affairs.

The IDF action in International waters on Tuesday morning may have a significance greater than it merits by having triggered the shift that makes western liberal capital flee from associations that damage the perception of its values across the World. I don't say this with any certainty, but when a publication such as The Economist begins to eschew that Israeli-American axis, you can be sure that a significant stream of global capital is thinking similarly.

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got a link?

Andalublue said:

Nice selective quoting technique there, keep it up. We can all have a go. Here's the same quote in its context:

"I can’t comfortably talk about this [Gaza] with [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu, but I can comfortably talk with Omar Bashir and tell him to his face that ‘what you’re doing is wrong.’ A Muslim cannot commit genocide. If there is such a thing, it’s impossible not to identify it. We can comfortably talk about that as well. We say: ‘You cannot do such a thing. You don’t have the right’,"

“Turkey at least has the confidence. I also conveyed my comfort on this issue to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. I told him that we are ready if there is any duty that falls to us." [source TRT]

See? So, in context, your quote demonstrates exactly the opposite of what you are trying to claim. Erdoğan the genocıde denier becomes Erdoğan, the man prepared to confront the war criminal. Turkey is also prepared to step up to UN duties in Darfur.

Your attempt to demonise Turkey and its PM...big FAIL.

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No, you're attempt to spin it fails.

Where is your SOURCE for said quote?

Turkey has been facing heavy criticism for agreeing to host al-Bashir at a summit of the Organization for Islamic Conference (OIC) scheduled to take place in Istanbul on Monday.
“It’s not possible for a Muslim to commit genocide,” he said. “That’s why we are comfortable [with the visit of al-Bashir].”

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Erdogan on Sunday was responding to the worldwide criticism over the controversial visit by the Sudanese leader, defending his government’s support for Al-Bashir.
If there was such a thing [genocide], we could talk about it face to face with President Bashir,” said Erdogan, whose government itself denies the genocide of Armenian committed by Ottoman Turkey in 1915-1923.
“Those world leaders who criticize us, have they ever visited Darfur? Their information is solely based on what the rapporteurs are reporting. These kinds of moves will not contribute to world peace,” Erdogan said Sunday in an address to members of his party.
“We are aware of the fact that there are those who want to corner Turkey through al-Bashir’s visit. These people should know well our sensitivities about human rights violations,” Erdogan said. “I went to Darfur myself. I want to ask: How many of these worlds leaders paid a visit to Sudan, to Darfur?”
“I went there to see it with my own eyes,” he reiterated, stressing that he did not observe that genocide was being committed during his visit.
Erdogan went on to suggest that the Jews of Israel are the only genocidal group in the Middle East.

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Erdogan Defends al-Bashir, Says Muslims Incapable of Genocide | Asbarez Armenian News

Come back when you can site a source not just make claims with nothing to back it up.

This news is not entirely suprising. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Turkish government's steady weakening of that country's previously strong bilateral ties with Israel is a strategic choice based on its Islamist orientation. Sharp criticism and spurts of downgraded relations as happened during Operation Cast Lead and the most recent incident concerning the flotilla are probably less the result of Turkey's dissatisfaction with Israel/Israeli policy/Israeli actions, and more the result that the events offered convenient cover under which the Turkish government could continue to recalibrate its policy orientation. After all, under the guise of blaming Israeli policy, it can try to maintain a moderate image and sustain its hopes of eventually joining the EU.

Even as Turkey denies that the Hamas terrorist group, an entity that rejects negotiations and Israel's right to exist, is a terrorist organization, Turkey takes a different approach toward the PKK. Moreover, even as Turkey complained loudly about Israel's Cast Lead operation in Gaza, Turkey has maintained its own operational freedom to conduct cross-border raids in Iraq against Kurdish terrorists. In fact, just a few years ago, Turkey was concerned that Israel wasn't lending it strong enough support when it was carrying out such raids. The reality is, both the PKK and Hamas are terrorist organizations. Turkey's new approach amounts to a double standard.

In the meantime, Israel's policy makers should recognize the larger policy picture and understand that the Islamist government is not committed to forging and sustaining an alliance with Israel, as had been the case under former secular governments in Turkey. Hence, Israel should not rush to offer the Turkish government concessions in the hope that the status quo ante would be restored. It won't. Turkey's choice is strategic. Moreover, its strategic repositioning likely extends beyond Israel. For example, should the UN Security Council consider strengthening sanctions against Iran, there is no assurance that Turkey would support such a move. It might abstain and there is a real chance that it could vote against the measure.

donsutherland1 said:

This news is not entirely suprising. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Turkish government's steady weakening of that country's previously strong bilateral ties with Israel is a strategic choice based on its Islamist orientation. Sharp criticism and spurts of downgraded relations as happened during Operation Cast Lead and the most recent incident concerning the flotilla are probably less the result of Turkey's dissatisfaction with Israel/Israeli policy/Israeli actions, and more the result that the events offered convenient cover under which the Turkish government could continue to recalibrate its policy orientation. After all, under the guise of blaming Israeli policy, it can try to maintain a moderate image and sustain its hopes of eventually joining the EU.

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So does Turkey criticizes Israel to get closer to Arab states/Iran or is it a move to get closer to the EU?

bub said:

So does Turkey criticizes Israel to get closer to Arab states/Iran or is it a move to get closer to the EU?

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I thought those two weren't mutually exclusive.








:2razz:

bub said:

So does Turkey criticizes Israel to get closer to Arab states/Iran or is it a move to get closer to the EU?

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Both of course.. :roll:

apdst said:

Hamas has declared war upon Israel. Israel has every right to defend herself, however she sees fit. If the Palestinians really wanted peace, there would be peace. But, the election of Hamas proves that the Palestinians aren't interested in peace, only the destruction of Israel.

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So why didn't the Palestinians have peace prior to the election of Hamas in 2007 ?

Paul

gunner said:

So why didn't the Palestinians have peace prior to the election of Hamas in 2007 ?

Paul

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Why would they have?

MrVicchio said:

No, you're attempt to spin it fails.

Where is your SOURCE for said quote?




Erdogan Defends al-Bashir, Says Muslims Incapable of Genocide | Asbarez Armenian News

Come back when you can site a source not just make claims with nothing to back it up.

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Was it the word SOURCE that threw you? I quoted the source, TRT, the Turkish national broadcaster which screened the interview. You can read a report on the interview in English, with quotes, at Prime Minister Erdo

Your 'source' has no agenda for spinning the interview to show Erdogan in the worst possible light, does it?

bub said:

So does Turkey criticizes Israel to get closer to Arab states/Iran or is it a move to get closer to the EU?

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To get closer to the Arab states/Iran without weakening ties with the EU. Turkey's biggest downgrades in its relationship with Israel come at times when Israel is under criticism from many in the international community. Hence, its substantive policy shifts don't stand out. If Turkey were to do so during relatively quiet periods, they would, and that outcome would raise questions about Turkey's reliability. Turkey very much wants to join the EU.

Apocalypse said:

I thought those two weren't mutually exclusive.








:2razz:

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they are, either you choose to turn islamic and then you get closer to Iran or the other Arab states, or you choose the democratic way and you get closer to the EU

donsutherland1 said:

To get closer to the Arab states/Iran without weakening ties with the EU. Turkey's biggest downgrades in its relationship with Israel come at times when Israel is under criticism from many in the international community. Hence, its substantive policy shifts don't stand out. If Turkey were to do so during relatively quiet periods, they would, and that outcome would raise questions about Turkey's reliability. Turkey very much wants to join the EU.

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So it's strategical.

Do you exclude the possibility that there could be some legitimate criticism towards Israel?

donsutherland1 said:

To get closer to the Arab states/Iran without weakening ties with the EU. Turkey's biggest downgrades in its relationship with Israel come at times when Israel is under criticism from many in the international community. Hence, its substantive policy shifts don't stand out. If Turkey were to do so during relatively quiet periods, they would, and that outcome would raise questions about Turkey's reliability. Turkey very much wants to join the EU.

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Correction: the Turkish government very much wants to join the EU, although support is weakening. Popular support is ambivalent at best.

Andalublue said:

Correction: the Turkish government very much wants to join the EU, although support is weakening. Popular support is ambivalent at best.

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Well one thing can be said for sure. Turkey wants the EU a hell of a lot more than the UK does.

Apocalypse said:

Why would they have?

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What i,m trying to highlight is their is no policy shift from the Palestinians by voting Hamas. However they are perceived by the outside world. Hamas rhetoric plays to the deep felt injustice of the Palestinians.

Paul

Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.

bub said:

So it's strategical.

Do you exclude the possibility that there could be some legitimate criticism towards Israel?

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Turkey has policy disagreements with Israel. However, the extent of Turkey's policy revision goes far beyond what one would reasonably expect if policy disagreements, alone, were the driver. After all, many EU countries also hold similar positions on the maritime blockade, among other things, yet the EU has not substantively downgraded its relations with Israel.

Andalublue said:

Correction: the Turkish government very much wants to join the EU, although support is weakening. Popular support is ambivalent at best.

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When I refer to Turkey's wanting to join the EU, I'm referring to Turkey's government. I'm discussing its policy choices.

Hamas not a terrorist group. Hahahahahaha

MetalGear said:

Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.

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Some of those 'basic commodities' not being sanctioned are sand/cement/ building materials. so reconstruction from Israels last incursion has pretty much been non-existent. I would hazard a guess how this makes the population feel towards the perceived aggressor.

Paul

MetalGear said:

Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.

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Your whole comment is flawed since you've drawn the false assumption that the blockade came before the election of Hamas.
See the part I've marked in your post.

gunner said:

What i,m trying to highlight is their is no policy shift from the Palestinians by voting Hamas.
Paul

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Good point. The strong support for genocide of Jews has remained a constant.

MetalGear said:

Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.

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A country also has the right to defend it's citizens. Starting a comment with your "I love a perfect Israel" comment is so weak it is pathetic. Maybe in Denmark, the citizens would be fine if your neighbors lobbed rockets into your cities and would do nothing.

How has the agreement to keep Southern Lebanon free of Hezbelloh missles gone. And that is with so called peacekeepers from the UN.

Lastly, I am not sure if many of the folks on this site are simply mininformed or worse, but Hezbellah, Iran, Hamas etc see getting back to the pre 1967 borders as a first step in their goal to what they want which is one state. This would call for the deportation of Jews who did not live there before the first world war.

MetalGear said:

Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies.

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Man **** that ****. People are responsible for their own actions. The Founding Fathers are the product of U.S. policies, Ghandi is the product of Indian policies, the IRA was the product of Irish policies, and likewise Hamas is the product of Palestinian policies, the PKK is the product of Kurdish policies (only supported by a very small minority btw), and the V.C. was the product of the Vietnamese. When faced with persecution and oppression (real or perceived) there are ways to legitimately go about reaching your goals and there are illegitimate ways, the first is to attempt every peaceful avenue to obtaining your goals until they are exhausted; such as, the Founding Fathers did through numerous petitions to the British Crown, how Ghandi did through his passive resistance, or how the IRA did prior to Easter Rising by trying to get the crown to pass and enforce the Home Rule Act of 1914, Ghandi was successful without violence, the Irish and the Americans then went on to more drastic measures but did they start off murdering British civilians? No they conducted legitimate military operations, they targeted the enemies military and political leadership, and even with the less legitimate IRA which was to come during "The Troubles" the IRA would phone in bombings ahead of time if they were going to bomb a civilian target; such as, a bank (which was likewise a legitimate targeting of the enemies economy as well). But Hamas, the PKK, and the V.C. never attempted peaceful avenues, refuse any compromise which would lead to a peaceful outcome, and they started off not only through violent means but by specifically targeting civilians for no military strategic value whatsoever, they did it simply to cause terror. That's what separates those terrorists groups from legitimate freedom fighters.

Apocalypse said:

Your whole comment is flawed since you've drawn the false assumption that the blockade came before the election of Hamas.
See the part I've marked in your post.

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That's actually a good point you made there. Cant argue with that! Unfortunately, still doesn't make the unsustainable blockade appropriate or deter Hamas at the polls.

washunut said:

A country also has the right to defend it's citizens. Starting a comment with your "I love a perfect Israel" comment is so weak it is pathetic. Maybe in Denmark, the citizens would be fine if your neighbors lobbed rockets into your cities and would do nothing.

How has the agreement to keep Southern Lebanon free of Hezbelloh missles gone. And that is with so called peacekeepers from the UN.

Lastly, I am not sure if many of the folks on this site are simply mininformed or worse, but Hezbellah, Iran, Hamas etc see getting back to the pre 1967 borders as a first step in their goal to what they want which is one state. This would call for the deportation of Jews who did not live there before the first world war.

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Washnut, the blockade is persecuting the Palestinians, not Hamas. If you think the blockade will somehow stop weapons (a very dim assumption considering there arsenal is as big as ever) into Gaza and will somehow end the conflict, your stupid ass should have built taller walls.

Agent Ferris said:

Man **** that ****. People are responsible for their own actions. The Founding Fathers are the product of U.S. policies, Ghandi is the product of Indian policies, the IRA was the product of Irish policies, and likewise Hamas is the product of Palestinian policies, the PKK is the product of Kurdish policies (only supported by a very small minority btw), and the V.C. was the product of the Vietnamese. When faced with persecution and oppression (real or perceived) there are ways to legitimately go about reaching your goals and there are illegitimate ways, the first is to attempt every peaceful avenue to obtaining your goals until they are exhausted; such as, the Founding Fathers did through numerous petitions to the British Crown, how Ghandi did through his passive resistance, or how the IRA did prior to Easter Rising by trying to get the crown to pass and enforce the Home Rule Act of 1914, Ghandi was successful without violence, the Irish and the Americans then went on to more drastic measures but did they start off murdering British civilians? No they conducted legitimate military operations, they targeted the enemies military and political leadership, and even with the less legitimate IRA which was to come during "The Troubles" the IRA would phone in bombings ahead of time if they were going to bomb a civilian target; such as, a bank (which was likewise a legitimate targeting of the enemies economy as well). But Hamas, the PKK, and the V.C. never attempted peaceful avenues, refuse any compromise which would lead to a peaceful outcome, and they started off not only through violent means but by specifically targeting civilians for no military strategic value whatsoever, they did it simply to cause terror. That's what separates those terrorists groups from legitimate freedom fighters.

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So your saying the PKK would exist even if it wasn't for there oppression to begin with? In fact the PKK started as a political parliamentary party which enjoyed much Kurdish support. I call bull****. Our actions are influenced by the times.