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Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

Boo,

No one thinks torture is the best and only option is every circumstance. Sometimes there will be no need to employ it while other times there might be. It shouldn't be our decision, though. We should leave that up to the discretion of the experts.



The "most effective way" is situational. There is no singular method or tactic that will be "the most effective way" in every situation, which is why limiting our options is "the least effective way".

And could you provide proof that "almost across the board the experts agree torture isn't the most effective way"? If that's true, then why did our intelligence and military apparatuses resort to waterboarding so frequently? Seems the experts actions speak louder than their alleged words.

No, I think you're wrong about that. The problems with torture are well documented. It is very good at getting confessions, but not so good at getting information. Gina above is correct that the ticking time bomb senario simply wouldn't ever really exist. To have the right person, with exactly the right iinformation, at exactly the right time is too much to ever expect. Instead, you're likely to have the wrong person who will say something to get you to stop and you will go chasing your tail, wasting time and effort. And we do have one example of misinformation that was costly, see al Libi and run up to the Iraq war.

Now, over the years I have posted a lot on torture, and a lot is written, but todays search provides this:

But what does the scientific literature say? A 2006 Intelligence Science Board flatly noted that there was no data supporting the claim that torture produces reliable results. The 372-page report would be summed up by this passage: “The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information. In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that ‘compliance’ carries the same connotation as ‘meaningful cooperation.’ ” In other words, waterboard someone or smack his head against the wall, and sure enough, he’ll open up and talk. But does that mean you’ll get reliable info that you couldn’t have gotten using more conventional techniques? Absolutely not. Dick Cheney insisted that two CIA analytical reports (that he apparently pressed to have prepared) concluded that his torture techniques rendered positive results. But these reports were declassified and published, and lo, they don’t say what he claimed they do.

Torture Doesn

By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

An excerpt from the full document, which can be downloaded here:

The requirement to obtain information from an uncooperative source as quickly as possible -- in time to prevent, for example, an impending terrorist attack that could result in loss of life -- has been forwarded as a compelling argument for the use of torture. Conceptually, proponents envision the application of torture as a means to expedite the exploitation process. In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as an alternative to the more time consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption. (NOTE: The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.)


2002 military memo: CIA tactics "torture," ineffective - War Room - Salon.com

Despite fearful anecdotal claims, the effectiveness of torture in generating intelligence is questionable at best. But we do know that torture produces many false confessions and new enemies, and distracts from more effective, legitimate techniques of interrogation and intelligence-gathering. We also know that democracies that have turned to torture in counterinsurgency – for example, the French in Algeria – have lost, while the British found a solution in Northern Ireland after they gave up abusive tactics.

Torture doesn't work / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

This is just a few trhat any search will yeild, not to mention many good books on the subject that can't really be linked here for review. The litature is very clear on this.
 
Any evidence Bush did not save lives with torture?

The burden of proof is on him. He said he did, so he has to shwo he did. That's the way it works.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
So doing the same acts as our enemy will not set us apart.
Waterboarding is not even close to the same acts as our enemy. If you think that by waterboarding we are stooping down to the terrorists level, then you are lacking information about what the terrorists have done. Waterboarding is like a tea party compared to what "our enemy" does.
 
I think this is great, I support water boarding and KSM certainly deserved it. He is a non US citizen terrorist that most definitely has vital and secret information about our enemies. I'd rather make that animals uncomfortable than have more innocent Americans die.

It's a rough world out there and sometimes the "black ops boys" just need to do what they gotta do. When the other "team" is chopping off heads and targeting innocents for mass suicide bombing murders, it wouldn't be too bright for us to try and maintain The Queensbury Rules. Not really rocket science coming to that conclusion.

One of our challenges is dealing with the recent phenomenon which suggests "total transparency" in the ways our Intelligence Agencies operate. Not implying that there should be no oversight. But also believe that some things don't need to be (and shouldn't) be getting published. "Self righteousness" needs to have a limit when it is undermining the overall well being/safety of the nation...


.
 
I support our guys killing the enemy, so according to your logic, I shouldn't complain when our guys are killed by the enemy. Do I have that right?

Right. You shouldn't scream bloody murder when you're involved in a war. It's expected for both sides to have casualties, no?

So again I say that if you're okay with your guys committing torture, then you should be okay with torture being committed to your guys.
 
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Sorry, Im not privy to all the government's findings and special operations.

Any evidence that he didnt?

Nice disengenuous way to wiggle out of an absurd claim.
 
Nope I could not physically or mentally bring myself to waterboard some one. It just is not part of me.

If anyone, family or not,was in a life or death situation and if I thought I could help them by torture, there is no limit to what I would do. Anything from pulling out fingernails to indian methods of torture. Waterboarding is a walk in the park. They all live through it!
 
Well said, both posts. They will say anything to make it stop and what better way to do that than to lie their butts off, causing misdirection of resources and wasting of valuable time.

Quite right. There are more effective ways than torture. The point is to get the information. We should seek themost effective way, and almost across the board the experts agree torture isn't the most effective way.

Is your objection to "torture" based on the argument that its not useful or that it's morally wrong? Or both?

Gina said:
The "ticking time bomb" scenario is ridiculous. The likelihood of snagging a bad guy with "only hours" in which to act to prevent an attack, is very far fetched.

Again, it's not so much an actual scenario as it is a thought exercise used to help people examine the logic behind their support for or opposition to torture in some or all circumstances.

Gina said:
There are other ways to get information. There are many other stories like this from interrogators, but I find this one the most poignant.

Lest anyone start laughing that I propose to give all terrorists cookies, that isn't the point, that was the bait this terrorist took. Smart interrogators know how to find a weakness and exploit it. Sugar free cookies was this guy's, so the joke was on him.

That's exactly what our interrogators did. They found the detainees weaknesses (whether it was female interrogators, insects, or embarrassment) and exploited it. I seem to remember a bit of an uproar when that information was released.

If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.

Right. You shouldn't scream bloody murder when you're involved in a war. It's expected for both sides to have casualties, no?

So again I say that if you're okay with your guys committing torture, then you should be okay with torture being committed to your guys.

If after capturing our troops, the Taliban/AQ provided them with medical assistance, brought them before a CSRT, gave them a chance to challenge their status as detainees, provided them with counsel, and just generally treated them as humanely as we treat our detainees, then I can't say I'd be outraged.
 
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Is your objection to "torture" based on the argument that its not useful or that it's morally wrong? Or both?

Both. There is more than one reason to oppose torture.
 
Even if presented as unlikely and as a basis for discussion, I don't believe "the ticking time bomb" a reasonable hypothetical. Hypothetical arguments are most useful when there is some possibility of the situation in question actually being played out.

Gina,

As I said, a hypothetical involving nineteen AQ operatives hijacking four jetliners and flying them into the WTC and Pentagon would have been laughed at prior to 9/11. Such a hypothetical would've failed to meet your subjective criteria of "likelihood" but it happened nonetheless. Reality does not always conform to our subjective expectations of what is likely to occur.

And the point of this particular hypothetical is to subject our moral presuppositions to scrutiny. If torture is morally justifiable under a certain circumstance, then it is morally justifiable under similar circumstances.

Given the nature of most responses from either side, a firm moral belief one way or another about torture, is the determining factor, not the scenario.

Those of us who see torture as morally reprehensible would not under any circumstances approve of it.

Yet you would approve of killing the enemy? Why do you arbitrarily distinguish between killing and torture? If a soldier can send a lead projectile through the enemy's head, then why it is morally reprehensible to subject that same enemy to simulated drowning?

And what about collateral damage? President Obama has ordered predator drone strikes on high level AQ operatives, causing the deaths of innocent non-combatants in the process. Do you also condemn these acts?

Many of those who would waterboard, don't believe it's torture, hence they have no problem with it. Even if they agree, it is torture, the nature of the person to be tortured is the justification, not the situation rendering the ticking time bomb is immaterial.

"Nebulous moral sentiment"? It's the law. We don't torture. As has been said in this thread already, our country has prosecuted people for waterboarding. The law is not a "nebulous moral sentiment", though morality is basis of it. As it is with all laws.

No one has made an appeal to law thus far (correct me if I'm wrong). It seems their primary concern has been the moral valuation being made in regards to torture, which is why I chose to address that valuation.
 
If after capturing our troops, the Taliban/AQ provided them with medical assistance, brought them before a CSRT, gave them a chance to challenge their status as detainees, provided them with counsel, and just generally treated them as humanely as we treat our detainees, then I can't say I'd be outraged.

What does this have to do with torture? Nothing. But I will bite.

I wouldn't consider Abu Ghraib humane. Nor Guantanamo Bay.
 
No, I think you're wrong about that. The problems with torture are well documented. It is very good at getting confessions, but not so good at getting information. Gina above is correct that the ticking time bomb senario simply wouldn't ever really exist. To have the right person, with exactly the right iinformation, at exactly the right time is too much to ever expect. Instead, you're likely to have the wrong person who will say something to get you to stop and you will go chasing your tail, wasting time and effort. And we do have one example of misinformation that was costly, see al Libi and run up to the Iraq war.

Now, over the years I have posted a lot on torture, and a lot is written, but todays search provides this:

But what does the scientific literature say? A 2006 Intelligence Science Board flatly noted that there was no data supporting the claim that torture produces reliable results. The 372-page report would be summed up by this passage: “The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information. In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that ‘compliance’ carries the same connotation as ‘meaningful cooperation.’ ” In other words, waterboard someone or smack his head against the wall, and sure enough, he’ll open up and talk. But does that mean you’ll get reliable info that you couldn’t have gotten using more conventional techniques? Absolutely not. Dick Cheney insisted that two CIA analytical reports (that he apparently pressed to have prepared) concluded that his torture techniques rendered positive results. But these reports were declassified and published, and lo, they don’t say what he claimed they do.

Torture Doesn

By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

An excerpt from the full document, which can be downloaded here:

The requirement to obtain information from an uncooperative source as quickly as possible -- in time to prevent, for example, an impending terrorist attack that could result in loss of life -- has been forwarded as a compelling argument for the use of torture. Conceptually, proponents envision the application of torture as a means to expedite the exploitation process. In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as an alternative to the more time consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption. (NOTE: The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.)


2002 military memo: CIA tactics "torture," ineffective - War Room - Salon.com

Despite fearful anecdotal claims, the effectiveness of torture in generating intelligence is questionable at best. But we do know that torture produces many false confessions and new enemies, and distracts from more effective, legitimate techniques of interrogation and intelligence-gathering. We also know that democracies that have turned to torture in counterinsurgency – for example, the French in Algeria – have lost, while the British found a solution in Northern Ireland after they gave up abusive tactics.

Torture doesn't work / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

This is just a few trhat any search will yeild, not to mention many good books on the subject that can't really be linked here for review. The litature is very clear on this.

Boo,

You seem to be refuting an argument I never made, i.e., torture is always the "most effective way" at obtaining actionable intelligence. I believe the "most effective way" to obtain actionable intelligence is situational, a fact your studies and articles implicitly confirm with statements like this...

"In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones."

Nine of out ten times torture won't be necessary or even effective, but what about the other one out of ten times? Simply give up?

The fact that the "most effective way" is situational means we shouldn't arbitrarily limit our intelligence operatives' options. If they reach a consensus amongst themselves that "torture" in a specific instance or situation is the "most effective way", then we should defer to their expert assessment.

I'm not saying we should torture everyone we capture. I'm just saying it should be an option.
 
"We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again." - Captain Picard



I wouldn't wish this upon my worst enemy.
 
Boo,

You seem to be refuting an argument I never made, i.e., torture is always the "most effective way" at obtaining actionable intelligence. I believe the "most effective way" to obtain actionable intelligence is situational, a fact your studies and articles implicitly confirm with statements like this...

"In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones."

Nine of out ten times torture won't be necessary or even effective, but what about the other one out of ten times? Simply give up?

The fact that the "most effective way" is situational means we shouldn't arbitrarily limit our intelligence operatives' options. If they reach a consensus amongst themselves that "torture" in a specific instance or situation is the "most effective way", then we should defer to their expert assessment.

I'm not saying we should torture everyone person we capture. I'm just saying it should be an option.

Actually no. A stopped clock is right twice a day, but you wouldn't argue it works. At any time, you might get something, but that wouldn't make it effective. Nor does it mean you wouldn't get the same intel, or better with another method. The problems associated with torture, misinformation, and the mroal strain, make something so ineffective as it has proven to be, not worth using. If it is wrong nine times, and we use that wrong intel, as we have (see al Libib), getting it right once wouldn't be enough to make it valid.
 
If the U.S. wants to torture people, then it should just be up front about it. You don't see countries like China or Russia apologizing for torturing people. The U.S. signed the Geneva Convention and then has done its best to run workarounds to the various amendments, like having detainees outside of its jurisdiction, or redefining the status of detainees in the face of international law.

I personally don't condone torture, but the realist in me knows the way that governments have always behaved. We can act like we're above it and quibble over definitions, but the fact is, cruel and unusual implements were used. Who knows what else has happened outside of the jurisdiction of Geneva. Is the U.S. so concerned about its image these days anyway? I mean, why quibble over minutiae? You treated prisoners like **** in order to gain intelligence. Now I ask: so what?

Is the illusion that the U.S. is somehow above it all so important?
 
According to the US government, waterboarding is torture.

The U.S. and U.N. definition of torture is subjective.

We have prosecuted civilians and people in our military for using waterboarding in the past.

Not the same type of waterboarding, the Japanese were prosecuted for forcing people to swallow water until their stomach descended and then beating the descended stomachs. IIRC the Sheriff who was prosecuted was not prosecuted for waterboarding but for corruption and no one can provide original source material (IE a case summary) involving the alleged prosecution of a soldier in Vietnam who supposedly was convicted for torture because he waterboarded someone.
 
What does this have to do with torture? Nothing. But I will bite.

My apologies, I left "if they used waterboarding in the same fashion we did" off of the end. Didn't make much sense without it.

I wouldn't consider Abu Ghraib humane. Nor Guantanamo Bay.

Abu Ghraib was a disaster because of policy breakdowns and individual malfeasance, not because we were trying to turn it into what it was. Gitmo is run perfectly fine.
 
If the U.S. wants to torture people, then it should just be up front about it. You don't see countries like China or Russia apologizing for torturing people. The U.S. signed the Geneva Convention and then has done its best to run workarounds to the various amendments, like having detainees outside of its jurisdiction, or redefining the status of detainees in the face of international law.

We didn't redefine the status of anyone they never fell with in the category of protected persons as defined by the Geneva Conventions themselves.
 
Abu Ghraib was a disaster because of policy breakdowns and individual malfeasance, not because we were trying to turn it into what it was. Gitmo is run perfectly fine.

Is your tongue firmly implanted in your cheek? :lol:
 
We didn't redefine the status of anyone they never fell with in the category of protected persons as defined by the Geneva Conventions themselves.

Yeah you did. You took non-state actors and called them enemy combattants, which the Geneva Convention does not address.
 
The U.S. and U.N. definition of torture is subjective.

Who they have prosecuted is not. In VN the US prosecuted US soldiers for waterboarding, the same practice done today.

Not the same type of waterboarding, the Japanese were prosecuted for forcing people to swallow water until their stomach descended and then beating the descended stomachs. IIRC the Sheriff who was prosecuted was not prosecuted for waterboarding but for corruption and no one can provide original source material (IE a case summary) involving the alleged prosecution of a soldier in Vietnam who supposedly was convicted for torture because he waterboarded someone.

Not the Japanese, US soldiers in VN.
 
I watched a video of that journalist, Pearl, having his head slowly sawed off by terrorists. He was terrified, and before his head ever came off he went from screaming to making inhuman-sounding croaking noises.

What are you talking about Goshin? Terrorists don't do that. That's just insane. Don't you know, people in this thread tell us we're doing the same thing as them and its clear we're not cutting peoples heads off. I mean look, how can these statements not be true?

If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.

So doing the same acts as our enemy will not set us apart.

See Goshin, you must be lying...we're just doing the same thing they're doing, and we're not cutting off heads, so obvious that isn't happening.

Or maybe no, maybe the'll all equal and thus you're telling the truth but you're just wrong in thinking anythings different...

Like if you go over the speed limit in your car then you should have no problem if someone plows into you going 100 mph, because if you're going to violate traffic laws then you better expect others to too.

Or like if you've ever lied to someone then you shouldn't have any problem or be upset if you get conned by scam artist or bilked by an Enron type company, because if you're going to lie then you better expect others to too.

Or I mean, if you've ever looked at another person and thought "Damn I bet they'd be a good ****" while you're married then you can't be upset if your spouse goes and takes part in a gang bang, because if you're going to do lewd things regarding other people then you better expect your spouse to do it as well.

Don't you see Goshin! We're EXACTLY like them, waterboarding is JUST like cutting peoples heads off, we're absolutely no different and its clear and obvious that if you do any negative act that is under the same extremely broad umbrella of a particular type of negative act then you're JUST like people that do the most extreme acts covered under said umbrella.

I mean, duh man...those two posters said so, it must be true.
 
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