• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

texmaster said:
c

You just admitted you don't believe having value for the flag other than the material it is made up shows a lack of understanding of what patriotism is.

To devalue the flag as you have done here by belitting its value beyond the material its made of only proves once again you will never understand why it is so wrong to burn it as a form of protest.
Click to expand...

Perhaps when right-wingers show as much respect for the principles that the flag represents as they do the fabric of which it is made, then your cries will have some merit. Patriotism is sooooo much more than waving a flag.
 
Navy Pride said:
I will never understand why lefties love to burn our flag or to burn American soldiers in effigy...One has to wonder is their hate for this country and our brave military that they have to do this?
Click to expand...

Good Question Navy....I don't know the answer. Although I also wonder why the right-wingers love to try to burn the values and principles that our flag stands for. One has to wonder is it their hate for this country and our values that they have to do this?
 
disneydude said:
Perhaps when right-wingers show as much respect for the principles that the flag represents as they do the fabric of which it is made, then your cries will have some merit. Patriotism is sooooo much more than waving a flag.
Click to expand...



Right, so in otherwords, only left wingers are patriotic? :roll:
 
FilmFestGuy said:
Not really. The "art" that pays for it's self is the lowest common denominator - think Hummels and Jersey Shore.

All art devolves into entertainment without patronage and government support.

Further, government investments in the arts return nearly 7-fold in tax dollars.

Economic Impact

The organization I work for receives about $60,000 annually in government dollars (federal, state, local). The economic impact is measured at $1.4 million; or the equivalent of 35 jobs created (based on our local average revenue). That's an income tax return of about $340,000.

That would be a 176% return on investment.

You take the money away from us; we have to cut jobs; shrink the event; and lessen the impact in the surrounding community - meaning fewer jobs created and less revenue.

You can attack government spending all you like - but government investment in the arts pays for it's self and is a revenue positive expenditure in the long run.

Now - those of you who are so against flag burning; are you also in favor of strong penalties for hate crimes? From what I've read, clearly, these individuals should be punished for vandalism, but nothing more.
Click to expand...

No hate crimes. Hate crimes legislation rarely gets applied properly, it ends up being applied selectively. So we should do away with it in the first place.

But no, there is no hate crime here. Just Arson.
 
Caine said:
No hate crimes. Hate crimes legislation rarely gets applied properly, it ends up being applied selectively. So we should do away with it in the first place.

But no, there is no hate crime here. Just Arson.
Click to expand...

Somewhat off topic but...what is a proper application of hate crime laws?
 
Redress said:
Somewhat off topic but...what is a proper application of hate crime laws?
Click to expand...

Its applied to crimes where hate is the motivating factor in who is chosen as the victim.
 
FinnMacCool said:
What is a flag anyways? Simply a piece of fabric and a symbol of nationalist fevor. That's all. People burn them because they don't like nationalism. What's wrong with that?
Click to expand...

Then why don't they try to burn the soldiers that defend that flag? Aren't they the enforcers of the state status quo, goosestepping us toward national unity? :roll:
 
American said:
Then why don't they try to burn the soldiers that defend that flag?
Click to expand...


They defend the country, and ideas behind the flag, not just the flag itself. IMO the two entities [flags, soldiers] were not so mutually inclusive that burning the flag can logically be considered akin to wanting to set a human being on fire.
 
disneydude said:
Perhaps when right-wingers show as much respect for the principles that the flag represents as they do the fabric of which it is made, then your cries will have some merit. Patriotism is sooooo much more than waving a flag.
Click to expand...

You have no idea what the principles of the flag stand for disney. In fact, your political goals spit on the very history of this nation and its foundation. Although its humerous to watch you claim otherwise.

No one limited patriotism to waving the flag but you have shown a pattern of fabricating facts instead of actually debating so color me surprised by this latest antic.

Being angry at some policies you don't like does not justify burning the most profound symbol of America no matter what your political beliefs are. Its a pity you will never understand that basic fact.
 
Last edited:
texmaster said:
You have no idea what the principles of the flag stand for disney. In fact, your political goals spit on the very history of this nation and its foundation. Although its humerous to watch you claim otherwise.

No one limited patriotism to waving the flag but you have shown a pattern of fabricating facts instead of actually debating so color me surprised by this latest antic.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you say that the principles that the flag stands for are far more important than the flag itself, though? The flag itself is cloth. It is merely a symbol for those principles. The flag in and of itself is cloth and nothing more. In fact, I think it cheapens those principles to liken the principles that the flag stands for to the flag itself. Any person can wave a flag and claim to be patriotic. To me, actions speak louder than words or symbols.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Wouldn't you say that the principles that the flag stands for are far more important than the flag itself, though? The flag itself is cloth. It is merely a symbol for those principles. The flag in and of itself is cloth and nothing more. In fact, I think it cheapens those principles to liken the principles that the flag stands for to the flag itself. Any person can wave a flag and claim to be patriotic. To me, actions speak louder than words or symbols.
Click to expand...

Of course the principles are more important but that does not diminish the symbol of the flag or the incredible disrespect for the country as a whole when someone decides to burn it.

I think it cheapens the symbol by claiming it is nothing more than cloth.
 
texmaster said:
Of course the principles are more important but that does not diminish the symbol of the flag or the incredible disrespect for the country as a whole when someone decides to burn it.
Click to expand...

Well, like the flag symbolizes the principles of this country, the burning of the flag symbolizes protest to various government policies or stances on various issues to many people. I don't think it's just a general disrespect of this country. I think the important thing is that we have the right to do this. This is what makes us such a great country.

I think it cheapens the symbol by claiming it is nothing more than cloth.
Click to expand...

It is nothing more than cloth. The principles that it stands for are what counts to me.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Well, like the flag symbolizes the principles of this country, the burning of the flag symbolizes protest to various government policies or stances on various issues to many people. I don't think it's just a general disrespect of this country. I think the important thing is that we have the right to do this. This is what makes us such a great country.
Click to expand...

It represents far more than the principles. It symbolizes the soldiers who defend and salute it, the revolution that brought it into the world and the symbol it stands for just like any other flag from any other nation.

I didn't say I would outlaw it but that doesn't change my opinion that by burning it you spit in the face of all american history, servicemen and its founding for some petty naraccisitic policy you don't like at the moment.

It is nothing more than cloth. The principles that it stands for are what counts to me.
Click to expand...

Then I don't understand how burning it doesn't insult those principles for you.
 
texmaster said:
It represents far more than the principles. It symbolizes the soldiers who defend and salute it, the revolution that brought it into the world and the symbol it stands for just like any other flag from any other nation.

I didn't say I would outlaw it but that doesn't change my opinion that by burning it you spit in the face of all american history, servicemen and its founding for some petty naraccisitic policy you don't like at the moment.
Click to expand...

That may be the case to you, but I can assure you that most people who burn flags are doing so to protest something specific or they are doing it for shock value. I don't think they see it from the same perspective that you do.

Then I don't understand how burning it doesn't insult those principles for you.
Click to expand...

Because those principles remain whether the flag is burnt or not. Burning a flag does absolutely nothing to those principles. Just as the flag is a symbol for those principles, burning the flag is a symbol for protest. That doesn't offend me. I think a lot of people do it for shock value, which is silly to me. What would offend me, however, is if we lived in a country where that type of thing wasn't allowed.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
That may be the case to you, but I can assure you that most people who burn flags are doing so to protest something specific or they are doing it for shock value. I don't think they see it from the same perspective that you do.
Click to expand...

And I agree that is the problem they have. Its their own personal view of it that they only attest to what they are protesting at the time that is the problem. They don't look at it from a larger perspective than themselves.

Because those principles remain whether the flag is burnt or not. Burning a flag does absolutely nothing to those principles. Just as the flag is a symbol for those principles, burning the flag is a symbol for protest. That doesn't offend me. I think a lot of people do it for shock value, which is silly to me. What would offend me, however, is if we lived in a country where that type of thing wasn't allowed.
Click to expand...

Again, second time, I never said I would outlaw it.

Burning the flag of course disprespects those principles because it is the symbol of not only those principles but the history of this nation.

Do you take the same stance of burning a solider in effigy or burning a cross? Are those only pieces of material as well?
 
I'm not going anywhere. I love my country. But at the same time, I do not have any irrational patriotism or nationalism. I am an internationalist and so therefore I do not believe in the flag nor any kind of nationalist flag and, as such, I will not condemn them being burned.
 
texmaster said:
Do you take the same stance of burning a solider in effigy or burning a cross? Are those only pieces of material as well?
Click to expand...

Nah, not really. To me both of those things are for the purpose of shock value and little more. And yes, those are pieces of material. The key word is "in effigy".
 
FinnMacCool said:
I'm not going anywhere. I love my country. But at the same time, I do not have any irrational patriotism or nationalism. I am an internationalist and so therefore I do not believe in the flag nor any kind of nationalist flag and, as such, I will not condemn them being burned.
Click to expand...




Really? So if someone came along and burned your neighbors flag you would have no problem with it because your a globalist extremist?
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Really? So if someone came along and burned your neighbors flag you would have no problem with it because your a globalist extremist?
Click to expand...

Neighbors flag, yes. Their own flag, I would laugh and walk away. No reason to give attention seekers what they want.
 
Redress said:
Neighbors flag, yes. Their own flag, I would laugh and walk away. No reason to give attention seekers what they want.
Click to expand...




I agree, Freedom is a bitch, if it allows for idiots to thrive, so be it. :shrug:
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I agree, Freedom is a bitch, if it allows for idiots to thrive, so be it. :shrug:
Click to expand...

I always figured this was something that people miss. Flag burning is effective because people react strongly to it. Walk away and don't react, and you have taken away their reason for doing it.
 
FinnMacCool said:
I'm not going anywhere. I love my country. But at the same time, I do not have any irrational patriotism or nationalism. I am an internationalist and so therefore I do not believe in the flag nor any kind of nationalist flag and, as such, I will not condemn them being burned.
Click to expand...

I certainly believe the second part.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Nah, not really. To me both of those things are for the purpose of shock value and little more. And yes, those are pieces of material. The key word is "in effigy".
Click to expand...

Then you are against the laws that ban cross burning?
 
Redress said:
I always figured this was something that people miss. Flag burning is effective because people react strongly to it. Walk away and don't react, and you have taken away their reason for doing it.
Click to expand...




I don't think its effective at all these days. :shrug:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom