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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

Hamas are trying to kill Israelis

Don't think I'm without sympathy for Gazans. However, they elected Hamas, they support Hamas, they defend Hamas, and ultimately they are responsible for the actions of their leaders. I'm completely familiar with the old shell game of "it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas."

If we start from the assumption that Palestinians are not responsible for Hamas, and not responsible for the terrorist acts of Hamas, then we should conclude that Hamas is responsible for the suffering of its own people, and conclude that Hamas must be removed by force if necessary in order to free Gaza.
 
Palestinians are actually within the top 10 obese peoples in the world. They are not starving.



Israel allows merchant goods in as well and that is in addittion to the aid that is allowed through.


World's Fattest Countries - Forbes.com

Odd. They don't appear to be in the top ten.
They also don't appear to be in the top 50.
In fact, they don't appear to be on the list at all, WTF?
Palestine doesn't appear to be in the fattest 194 countries.
Israel's number 50.
Maybe Palestine's not listed because it's not considered a country.
Maybe the list-makers count it as part of Israel.
Either way, you'd think if Palestinians were that obese, they'd appear on there in some way, shape, or form.
Maybe it's a big Islamic conspiracy to make the US and Israel look fat and stupid, do you think?
 
Don't think I'm without sympathy for Gazans. However, they elected Hamas, they support Hamas, they defend Hamas, and ultimately they are responsible for the actions of their leaders. I'm completely familiar with the old shell game of "it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas."
So are Americans responsible for the actions of their leaders? That is the same logic bin Laden used when he tried to justify 9/11.
If we start from the assumption that Palestinians are not responsible for Hamas, and not responsible for the terrorist acts of Hamas, then we should conclude that Hamas is responsible for the suffering of its own people, and conclude that Hamas must be removed by force if necessary in order to free Gaza.
Hamas is responsible for Hamas. Why can't you leave it at that? And the things most people seem to forget is that close to half of Gaza's population could not even vote when Hamas won parliamentary elections.
 
Kaya, you are debating with Grant/Picaro/Ferris. Are you expecting s/he is likely to accept your points?

Im trying to burn water, aren't i? Lol.


So does Qatar, but every thieving corrupted politician seems to squabble up the funds nicely. GDP per capita reflects nothing. It also does not change the purchasing power of that nation if its commodities are pathetically high. In fact, theoretically, GDP/C is useless in this scenario.

World's Fattest Countries - Forbes.com

Odd. They don't appear to be in the top ten.
They also don't appear to be in the top 50.
In fact, they don't appear to be on the list at all, WTF?
Palestine doesn't appear to be in the fattest 194 countries.
Israel's number 50.
Maybe Palestine's not listed because it's not considered a country.
Maybe the list-makers count it as part of Israel.
Either way, you'd think if Palestinians were that obese, they'd appear on there in some way, shape, or form.
Maybe it's a big Islamic conspiracy to make the US and Israel look fat and stupid, do you think?

Thats interesting.
 
So are Americans responsible for the actions of their leaders? That is the same logic bin Laden used when he tried to justify 9/11.

Hamas is responsible for Hamas. Why can't you leave it at that? And the things most people seem to forget is that close to half of Gaza's population could not even vote when Hamas won parliamentary elections.

That is a narrow and convenient view that tries unsuccessfully to shift responsibility. When two countries are at war, do you suppose it is only the governments which oppose each other?

Ironically, it is the Hamas leadership which targets civilians, while Israel does all it can to minimize civilian casualties. Your premise is so absurd as to be laughable. Should we debate whether the sun rises up in the West?
 
Should we debate whether the sun rises up in the West?

I think that's perfectly debatable. :)
On one hand you have Palestinians doing wrong, on the other you have Israel exaggerating the problem. Can hardly blame them voting Hamas out of fustration though would rather not make any attempts to justify it since that is not possible. What degreez says is, to a degree (lol), is correct, but we know what policies we vote for, dont we?
 
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Sure, and George Bush is responsible for the Iraq war. In fact, he personally killed 100,000 Iraqis. Don't blame me, I only voted for the guy. LOL!
 
World's Fattest Countries - Forbes.com

Odd. They don't appear to be in the top ten.
They also don't appear to be in the top 50.
In fact, they don't appear to be on the list at all, WTF?
Palestine doesn't appear to be in the fattest 194 countries.
Israel's number 50.
Maybe Palestine's not listed because it's not considered a country.
Maybe the list-makers count it as part of Israel.
Either way, you'd think if Palestinians were that obese, they'd appear on there in some way, shape, or form.
Maybe it's a big Islamic conspiracy to make the US and Israel look fat and stupid, do you think?

http://vladtepesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/14-Obesity.jpg
 
GDP (purchasing power parity - PPP): $11.95 billion (2008 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate): $6.641 billion (2008 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 0.8% (2008 est.)

GDP - per capita (PPP): $2,900 (2008 est.)

Egypt:

GDP ( purchasing power parity - PPP): $444.8 billion (2008 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate): $162.6 billion (2008 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 7.2% (2008 est.)

GDP - per capita (PPP): $5,800 (2008 est.)

Another example of the pointless comparisons
 
CIA Factbook: Gaza

Unemployement seems fantastic at 41%
Another reason why your GDP/C claims suck

Meh Palestinians receive almost as much in international aid Per Capita as the entire per capita GDP of Egypt, at least according to the GDP Per Capita stats of the World Bank.
 
Meh Palestinians receive almost as much in international aid Per Capita as the entire per capita GDP of Egypt, at least according to the GDP Per Capita stats of the World Bank.

Why should they be degraded to the point where economic survival only becomes possible through AID? I see no good in any of this.
 
So we have two good sources who contradict each other, maybe we should look at how they came by those numbers and see if they are measuring different things. Then we should ask ourselves what question this obesity question is going to answer for us. In other words "so what" if they are fat or not, they certainly arent starving.
 
Can hardly blame them voting Hamas out of fustration though would rather not make any attempts to justify it since that is not possible.

Such statements have the ring of "don't blame us, we were only following orders." We're judged by our actions, not by our motives. Otherwise you get the "ends justify the means" argument that so many people use to excuse the violent acts of terrorists.

If Hamas is a bloody terrorist group that doesn't reflect Palestinian society, then Hamas should be removed before it causes the eventual and inevitable destruction of Gaza. We don't need a million martyrs. Take the dog and pony show somewhere else.
 
Kaya, you are debating with Grant/Picaro/Ferris. Are you expecting s/he is likely to accept your points?

Ah... I'll make sure this is my last response to “Agent Ferris” then.

It's got to do with what you said. This situation was completely different from previous humanitarian flotillas. This flotilla wanted a violent confrontation.

And my point is exactly the same – Ron Prosor (Israeli Ambassador for those who only accept Israeli versions of stories) explained in his article that Israel handled other flotillas differently and those on board that wanted trouble were denied the opportunity and there was no publicity.

Do you see what he (and I) are getting at?

-- This is not a psychological weapon the only reason why more Israelis aren't killed is because their homes have to have bomb shelters and they have a early warning mechanism, if they didn't tens of thousands would be killed, if these rockets were fired into the U.S. for or U.K. for example they would result in many many more casualties.

Continuing to use Israeli only sources – why do you think that the Israeli Minitsry of Defense said in 2006 that Qassam rockets posed more of a “psychological than a physical” threat? Katyusha rockets have a greater range but are still unguided missiles. Nobody can tell where they will land.

Please ask me for a source.... Please tell me I'm fabricating or anti-semitic for my posts...

-- The food stuffs would have made it in, the reason why concrete is banned is because Hamas uses it to create bunkers and tunnels for arms smuggeling. Israel is perfectly justified in not letting in the concrete.

Not what you originally posted about. You said “If they wanted building materials for housing they should have asked for pre-fab aluminum houses like what the Katrina victims got.

Prefabs have are banned (the materials could be re-used if Hamas got hold) so handing the aid over wouldn't serve the purpose of raising the profile. Said this previously and repeated for you here.

I've posted previously that Israel is right to stop concrete as it is also used (with steel) to construct hard launch sites for their rockets.

-- This wasn't just some of the protestors, 3 of the ships were owned and operated by the jihadist affiliated IHH.

And? There were violent protests on one ship only BUT there was violence from the commandos on more than one ship.

Palestinians are actually within the top 10 obese peoples in the world. They are not starving.

Oh dear, and Ethiopians are also up there I guess?

Israel allows merchant goods in as well and that is in addittion to the aid that is allowed through.

Already explained this umpteen times throughout this thread...

Don't think I'm without sympathy for Gazans. However, they elected Hamas, they support Hamas

I'll agree that

-- they defend Hamas

Source?

-- and ultimately they are responsible for the actions of their leaders. I'm completely familiar with the old shell game of "it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas."

I don't agree that just as I wouldn't agree any electorate being held responsible for the misdeeds of the leaders they elect.

-- we should conclude that Hamas is responsible for the suffering of its own people, and conclude that Hamas must be removed by force if necessary in order to free Gaza.

I totally agree that Hamas is responsible for much of the suffering, it plays as big a part in the internal collective punishment of Gazans as Israel and Egypt do for the external collective punishment – however I don't advocate removing Israel and Egypt by force.
 
That is a narrow and convenient view that tries unsuccessfully to shift responsibility. When two countries are at war, do you suppose it is only the governments which oppose each other?
It is the view that you are trying to impose. It is the same viewpoint bin Laden used when he said American civilians are faIr game because they elect their president. If these two countries are at war, then Israel has no right to complain about rockets being fired into Israel. That is war, after all.
Ironically, it is the Hamas leadership which targets civilians, while Israel does all it can to minimize civilian casualties. Your premise is so absurd as to be laughable. Should we debate whether the sun rises up in the West?
How many Hamas militants were killed in relation to how many civilians were killed? Israel may not target civilians, but minimizing civilian casualities is a bold claim that is contradicted by their actions.
 
It is the view that you are trying to impose. It is the same viewpoint bin Laden used when he said American civilians are faIr game because they elect their president. If these two countries are at war, then Israel has no right to complain about rockets being fired into Israel. That is war, after all.

Your use of the phrase "fair game" to describe attacks on civilians is banal. And Israel doesn't "complain" about the rockets. You seem to take a somewhat cavalier attitude towards a serious conflict.

How many Hamas militants were killed in relation to how many civilians were killed? Israel may not target civilians, but minimizing civilian casualities is a bold claim that is contradicted by their actions.

That we will never know. In prison, nobody is guilty. In Gaza, nobody's a terrorist.

However I reject that notion that in a war that's been going on for decades between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/you name it, that the Palestinians just happen to find themselves unluckily caught in the middle.

And I don't hear anyone being too careful when they accuse "Israel" of genocide. The idea that Israelis are guilty of genocide, while Palestinians are innocent of the actions of their leadership, is laughable.

And finally, every American has the blood of the Iraq war on his hands. Do you seriously think you can get away with blaming your government? If so then I assume you were out picketing every day on Pennsylvania Avenue. Or perhaps like most Americans, you stayed home and watched the war on CNN.
 

I'm only going to do this once. From now on you can fish for your own links, as you're so fond of saying.

Abbas bans Hamas police force - Los Angeles Times

Obviously, the civilian police force defends the Hamas government.

I don't agree that just as I wouldn't agree any electorate being held responsible for the misdeeds of the leaders they elect.

How very convenient for the electorate. Ever heard the phrase, "of the people, by the people, for the people?"
 
And I don't hear anyone being too careful when they accuse "Israel" of genocide.

Could you link to a few posts where anyone has accused Israel of genocide? Do the words 'horse' and 'straw' mean anything to you?
 
You probably meant "straw man" or (I guess) Trojan horse. Show me where I accused anyone of anything.
 
Such statements have the ring of "don't blame us, we were only following orders." We're judged by our actions, not by our motives. Otherwise you get the "ends justify the means" argument that so many people use to excuse the violent acts of terrorists.

If Hamas is a bloody terrorist group that doesn't reflect Palestinian society, then Hamas should be removed before it causes the eventual and inevitable destruction of Gaza. We don't need a million martyrs. Take the dog and pony show somewhere else.

Thank you for the dramatics but i think i explained my position already.
Hamas is not short of money. The Iranian and Syrian regimes fund them. Are you surprised that through social systems and welfare support Hamas has won the hearts of the Palestinians? When you victimize society, and promise to crush the opponent by all means neccessary, society begins to hate the opponent and relish in its demise however violent. Popular support sky rockets for those who have the means and the way to deliver on these promises. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unjust laws and policies can drive even the most harmonious society to murder. For this reason the statement "ones mans terrorist is another mans hero" rings true in this scenario. In Europe, the right wing nationalist community have not grown, but support for them have. The failure of moderate parties in Gaza because of the lack of actions by the international community to support them have ultimately led to this radicalization.

Hamas DOES reflect the sad views of Palestinians, but it can be changed easily by changing the conditions and the desperation of the region. Man by nature is not evil.
 
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And even then the absurd prices of basic commodities go beyond what most Palestinians can afford. Computers? Chocolates? Come on. Nobody wants to live like that.
I agree, but aren't the Palestinians biting the hand that feeds then so to speak. What I am saying is that Israel isn't the provocateur in this conflicts. All the Palestinians have to do is sit down and discuss peace, Israel has already shown that it's willing to concede up to 90 percent of the Palestinians demands.
 
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