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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

Apocalypse said:
They've also had two assault rifles.
I think only cowards use the cover of peace activists to attack soldiers that do not fire back, and I think it's ****ing brave not to draw your weapon out and shoot when you're at the danger of life if only because of your values.
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You probably ought to be able to corroborate your claim that the activists had assault rifles, right? Where are you getting that piece of information? I haven't heard, read or seen any such evidence. Perhaps you have access to information that ordinary DP members don't. But, had they had assault rifles, how come no Israeli soldier (according to an Israeli spokeman I heard 4 hours ago on the radio) suffered gunshot wounds? How come the only ones to have shot anyone were the soldiers?
 
Ikari said:
Quit trying to deflect. You said that the blockade does not collectively punish the Palestinian people. I have demonstrated that statement to be false by the precise nature of a blockade. But maybe you can make another deflect statement that has nothing to do with what we're discussing so Texmaster there has another post to thank.
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Which is why it is clear that you're objecting to blockades in general and claiming that all of them are the collective punishment of the blockaded territory's residents.
I have only point out at the absurdity of that statement.
 
Ikari said:
Quit trying to deflect. You said that the blockade does not collectively punish the Palestinian people. I have demonstrated that statement to be false by the precise nature of a blockade. But maybe you can make another deflect statement that has nothing to do with what we're discussing so Texmaster there has another post to thank.
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When the Palestinians stop electing terrorist organizations to their government power you will see a change in Israel.

What is so pathetic is you can't even acknowledge Hamas' role in terrorism against Israeli civilians being at the heart for the blockade in the first place.
 
Apocalypse said:
I can't see your point.
When the US army/NATO/Israel/etc cause civilians deaths it's usually because they didn't know that civilians are there.
Like that time when NATO has dropped bombs on some fuel tanks hijacked by terrorists not knowing that civilians came there to gather fuel, killing over 45 civilians.
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OK, fair enough. There are some times. But I don't think many. Certainly, you know the apartment complex is occupied. When you bomb a place like that, you do so full well knowing that there are civilians there and that they'll die. You're doing it either to create civilian loss (as was the case in WW II in Tokyo), or because you have completely negated the lives of those civilians and think of them not so much as people, but things which are in the way of the current goal and thus it's ok to destroy them so long as you're maintaining this "intent" of the original goal.
 
texmaster said:
When the Palestinians stop electing terrorist organizations and their government power you will see a change in Israel.
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I won't hold my breath. I don't think even that would cause a change in Israel.

texmaster said:
What is so pathetic is you can't even acknolwedge Hamas' role in terroristm against Israeli civilians being at the heart for the blockade in the first place.
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What's pathetic is you can't even acknowledge the Israeli role in the conditions and environment of the Palestinian people and their oppression over decades which has grown deeply rooted resent.
 
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Rumors circulating out in the news space that there may be a second running of the Israeli blockade. But this time with the Turkish Navy as an escort. Any thoughts/projections on how the US policy (and/or the US Navy) should respond if Turkey attempts such an action....?


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Cole said:
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Rumors circulating out in the news space that there may be a second running of the Israeli blockade. But this time with the Turkish Navy as an escort. Any thoughts/projections on how the US policy (and/or the US Navy) should respond if Turkey attempts such an action....?


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Wow. If they do that then they are directly challenging Israel as a nation. That would not be smart by Turkey.
 
Andalublue said:
You probably ought to be able to corroborate your claim that the activists had assault rifles, right? Where are you getting that piece of information? I haven't heard, read or seen any such evidence. Perhaps you have access to information that ordinary DP members don't. But, had they had assault rifles, how come no Israeli soldier (according to an Israeli spokeman I heard 4 hours ago on the radio) suffered gunshot wounds? How come the only ones to have shot anyone were the soldiers?
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If I recall correctly you weren't really believing the knives part too at start, and now you do, no?
And turns out Israel was right and the rest of the world was wrong.
They had two assault rifles according to the witness accounts of the soldiers that have boarded the ship, and have used them.
Besides that it was also reported that two to three soldiers have had their pistols, the ones they kept as a final resort, taken by the crowd and used against them.
The clips of those pistols were found to be empty later on during the ship's scanning, implying they were used against the soldiers.

And by the way two Israeli soldiers have indeed suffered gunshot wounds, so I do not know what you're talking about.
 
reefedjib said:
This does not change the fact that it is legitimate.
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It means that legitimacy resides only in the mind of those that recognise it, i.e. Israel, the US Israel lobby and the DP ICDNW brigade, nowhere else.
Nope.
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Nope? As in "nope, Israel will suffer no consequences of this"?
 
Cole said:
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Rumors circulating out in the news space that there may be a second running of the Israeli blockade. But this time with the Turkish Navy as an escort. Any thoughts/projections on how the US policy (and/or the US Navy) should respond if Turkey attempts such an action....?


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Why would it be our problem? Sounds more like Israel's. We already have wars going on in the region, we don't need any more.
 
Ikari said:
Why would it be our problem? Sounds more like Israel's. We already have wars going on in the region, we don't need any more.
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When did Pat Buchanan join the forum?

See Israel is one of our closest allies. What is the point of having an ally if we do nothing when they are in trouble?

Forgive me if I don't side with people who support Palestinians who cheered 9.11 and attack Israeli civilians.
 
Ikari said:
OK, fair enough. There are some times. But I don't think many. Certainly, you know the apartment complex is occupied. When you bomb a place like that, you do so full well knowing that there are civilians there and that they'll die. You're doing it either to create civilian loss (as was the case in WW II in Tokyo), or because you have completely negated the lives of those civilians and think of them not so much as people, but things which are in the way of the current goal and thus it's ok to destroy them so long as you're maintaining this "intent" of the original goal.
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There are always the odds when fighting in civilian areas to hit civilians.
Even when soldiers are being sent there for close-ranged fights there are still civilian lives lost due to the straying bullets from the contacts.
War is ugly and in no war would no civilian die, but there exists a huge difference between a NATO airplane taking out innocent civilians while targeting terrorists and a terrorist taking out an innocent civilian while targeting innocent civilians.
 
Apocalypse said:
If I recall correctly you weren't really believing the knives part too at start, and now you do, no?
And turns out Israel was right and the rest of the world was wrong.
They had two assault rifles according to the witness accounts of the soldiers that have boarded the ship, and have used them.
Besides that it was also reported that two to three soldiers have had their pistols, the ones they kept as a final resort, taken by the crowd and used against them.
The clips of those pistols were found to be empty later on during the ship's scanning, implying they were used against the soldiers.

And by the way two Israeli soldiers have indeed suffered gunshot wounds, so I do not know what you're talking about.
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Knives? I think I was the one who mentioned them. There were knives, we saw knives, please don't raise red herrings. My point here is that the only "evidence" you are using is the "evidence" of what the Israelis are saying. Up until now we haven't known the extent of injuries or the evidence of the activists testimonies because Israel has kidnapped them.

We can all also be forgiven for not swallowing the Israeli version of events without some degree of scepticism.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm
 
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Cole said:
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Rumors circulating out in the news space that there may be a second running of the Israeli blockade. But this time with the Turkish Navy as an escort. Any thoughts/projections on how the US policy (and/or the US Navy) should respond if Turkey attempts such an action....?


.
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This is absolutely disturbing.
There would be only two ships coming however, and hence there would be no need to board them on international waters, since there is no chance of them making it to the port of Gaza as the fears were for the previous flotilla.
If Israel boards the ships it should do so on Gaza's territorial waters, and if the Turks open fire then Israel must do what it must, however unfortuante and dangerous this is.
 
Andalublue said:
Knives? I think I was the one who mentioned them. There were knives, we saw knives, please don't raise red herrings. My point here is that the only "evidence" you are using is the "evidence" of what the Israelis are saying. We don't know the extent of injuries or the evidence of the activists testimonies because Israel has kidnapped them.
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Israeli soldiers were wounded by gunfire, that's a fact.
 
texmaster said:
When did Pat Buchanon join the forum?

See Israel is one of our closest allies. What is the point of having an ally if we do nothing when they are in trouble?

Forgive me if I don't side with people who support Palesitnians who cheered 9.11 and attack Israeli civilians.
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I don't support either side. I think they're both a bunch of idiots. But there are a lot of people who will excuse absolutely everything Israel does and blame absolutely everything on Palestine. But it's not all their fault. Israel has done bad things too, it has acted improperly as well, and it's time to reap what was sowed. Israel is not much of an ally if all they can do is drag us into conflict. It's like the scrawny, smarmy kid who is "friends" with the big tough guy. He goes around running his mouth getting into arguments and then runs to his big tough friend to handle the fight. **** that. I don't want to be drawn into wars because both sides are stupid idealists who can't understand the otherside long enough to put an end to fighting. That's their problem, they need to figure it out. We can't sit around holding Israel's hand all the damned time, or come running to its defense every time it pisses everyone else off. Israel isn't my problem, my problem is America.

"I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none, and little or no diplomatic establishment. And I am not for linking ourselves by new treaties with the quarrels of Europe, entering that field of slaughter to preserve their balance, or joining in the confederacy of Kings to war against the principles of liberty." --Thomas Jefferson

So if you're done, I think I saw some posts by Apocalypse he made earlier that you didn't thank. So maybe you can get on that.
 
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Update: Thousands of dollars in cash were found in the pockets of the dead Turkish citizens that have attacked the Israeli soldiers.

There is a suspicion that those are mercenaries paid for to attack the Israeli soldiers when they board the ship.

Besides that, Israel has begun its investigation of the event.
 
Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."


'Next time we'll use more force'

Excellent. I applaud Israel for showing the incredible restraint the first time using only paint ball guns until they were personally attacked by these terrorist sympathizers. Hopefully, the paintball days are over.
 
Apocalypse said:
Update: Thousands of dollars in cash were found in the pockets of the dead Turkish citizens that have attacked the Israeli soldiers.

There is a suspicion that those are mercenaries paid for to attack the Israeli soldiers when they board the ship.

Besides that, Israel has begun its investigation of the event.
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I don't doubt it for a second. This was staged by Pro Palestinian militants.
 
texmaster said:
Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."


'Next time we'll use more force'

Excellent. I applaud Israel for showing the incredible restraint the first time using only paint ball guns until they were personally attacked by these terrorist sympathizers. Hopefully, the paintball days are over.
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I like how he sounded surprised that they were attacked as if it was a "war". Their blockade is an act of war, they should have been prepared for that from the start.
 
Ikari said:
I don't support either side.
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Ok I laughed out loud on that one.

I think they're both a bunch of idiots. But there are a lot of people who will excuse absolutely everything Israel does and blame absolutely everything on Palestine.
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And there are people who will always claim Israel is the only agressor. Whats your point?

But it's not all their fault. Israel has done bad things too, it has acted improperly as well, and it's time to reap what was sowed. Israel is not much of an ally if all they can do is drag us into conflict. It's like the scrawny, smarmy kid who is "friends" with the big tough guy.
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Obviously you have never met anyone in the Mossad. They are hardly the scrawnmy smarmy kid.

He goes around running his mouth getting into arguments and then runs to his big tough friend to handle the fight. **** that. I don't want to be drawn into wars because both sides are stupid idealists who can't understand the otherside long enough to put an end to fighting. That's their problem, they need to figure it out. We can't sit around holding Israel's hand all the damned time, or come running to its defense every time it pisses everyone else off. Israel isn't my problem, my problem is America.
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Can you even point to one time where Israel has mouthed off saying any action they take they don't have to worry about the consequences because America will protect them?

Where do you get these incredible dishonest statements from?

"I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none, and little or no diplomatic establishment. And I am not for linking ourselves by new treaties with the quarrels of Europe, entering that field of slaughter to preserve their balance, or joining in the confederacy of Kings to war against the principles of liberty." --Thomas Jefferson

So if you're done, I think I saw some posts by Apocalypse he made earlier that you didn't thank. So maybe you can get on that.
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I know you don't like it that he is right and you are wrong but I can't help that.

But for you to say you don't support either side was really amusing and I thank you for it.
 
Ikari said:
I like how he sounded surprised that they were attacked as if it was a "war". Their blockade is an act of war, they should have been prepared for that from the start.
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Explain how this blockade is an act of war against Turkey?

Go ahead.
 
texmaster said:
Explain how this blockade is an act of war against Turkey?

Go ahead.
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It's an act of war against Gaza and its inhabitants. Perhaps Turkey is just ally. Do you really need these things explained? I mean, I think it's all within the grasp of human intelligence.
 
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