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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

bicycleman said:
Israel found that the ships were carrying automatic weapons and explosives. What kind of aid did these ships plan to deliver? Doesn't sound like humanitarian aid to me. More like aid in the form of more terrorism, directed at Gaza. These commandoes were attacked with more than just knives and axes.
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I am not finding any reference to this in any of the stories I am reading. Can you source where the ships where carrying automatic weapons and explosives?
 
Apocalypse said:
Israel has done nothing illegal there.
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So murdering 9 to 19 people in cold blood is not illegal anymore.. I see...... guess defending murders is okay as long as they are Israeli.. good to know.. You do know there was a holocaust survivor in the ship right?

There is nothing that forbids Israeli from inspecting ships on international waters when they declare that they intend to break the blockade and supply Gaza with uninspected materials.
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So you are saying that North Korea can board any US ship it wants in international waters because it is technically at war still? You have no problems with this? How about Iran boarding US ships to seize contraband or whatever ?

Not to mention that soldiers have every right to respond with live fire when they're being engaged with live fire, they weren't even equipped for a live-ammunition battle, their pistols were the only thing available and they were told to use it only at the risk of life.
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And the ship has no right to defend it self when being stormed by heavily armed troops? give me a freaking break.. they hypocrisy and double standard stinks. Again just think if it was a US ship being boarded by say North Koreans in international waters, what would you say then? That they had ever right to do so since the US and North Korea are technically still at war?

One of the soldiers who was lynched by 6-8 of them has nearly lost his life before he has managed to pull out his pistol while on the ground and shoot the legs of those who were beating him with crowbars, it was insane.
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He should not have been there in the first place. There were plenty of other ways of avoiding this, especially when the ships arrived in Gaza territorial waters.. at least Israel would have some sort of legal footing.. as it stands now, they are looking like the fools they are. But have to admit the spin they are promoting (with your help) is very effective with their own allies in the US and elsewhere, that is until it is all disproved as lies yet again.
 
Redress said:
I am not finding any reference to this in any of the stories I am reading. Can you source where the ships where carrying automatic weapons and explosives?
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They were not. It is being floated by pro-Isreali sources with the help of the IDF spin machine. At best they wrestled a weapon off the Israeli hit squads. In fact there are reports that 2 people were already killed before the troops set foot on the ships. It was not long after the raid that the IDF were out spinning about sling shots and knives... yea like the passengers are not allowed to defend themselves just because the opposition are IDF troops?
 
Redress said:
I am not finding any reference to this in any of the stories I am reading. Can you source where the ships where carrying automatic weapons and explosives?
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Actually, it does not matter whether the ships were actually carrying weapons or not. The facts that

1) There was a blockade, and the flotilla announced they were going to run it

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2) Israel did NOT know what the shipments contained, but based on past actions, had every reason to suspect that weapons MIGHT be among the contents

=

Reasonable suspicion, and therefore Israel's right to board and search the ships.
 
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PeteEU said:
So murdering 9 to 19 people in cold blood is not illegal anymore.. I see...... guess defending murders is okay as long as they are Israeli.. good to know.. You do know there was a holocaust survivor in the ship right?
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And he wasn't even wounded, what's your point?
And of course the only one to be murdered was your credibility and I fear it is a suicide case.
So you are saying that North Korea can board any US ship it wants in international waters because it is technically at war still? You have no problems with this? How about Iran boarding US ships to seize contraband or whatever ?
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I'm saying that according to international law if the declared direction/intent is to run a blockade the state has a green light to board the ship after going through the warning procedure which Israel obviously did.
And the ship has no right to defend it self when being stormed by heavily armed troops? give me a freaking break.. they hypocrisy and double standard stinks. Again just think if it was a US ship being boarded by say North Koreans in international waters, what would you say then? That they had ever right to do so since the US and North Korea are technically still at war?
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The ship has no right to defend itself, people do, and the crew of that ship have attacked soldiers with live ammunition, the soldiers were equipped with paint guns and were only told to draw their pistols once it was understood that they are being ambushed and lynched.
He should not have been there in the first place. There were plenty of other ways of avoiding this, especially when the ships arrived in Gaza territorial waters.. at least Israel would have some sort of legal footing.. as it stands now, they are looking like the fools they are. But have to admit the spin they are promoting (with your help) is very effective with their own allies in the US and elsewhere, that is until it is all disproved as lies yet again.
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And yet you support the attempt to kill him through lynching.
 
Tashah said:
I think as more information and evidence comes about, the conclusions will be obvious and unambiguous.
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You mean the usual fabricated IDF evidence or the actual eyewitness evidence by the people on board?

On the contrary, this "peaceful-flotilla" charade has been exposed.
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It was.. till the IDF attacked the flotilla. The IDF fired the first "shot" so to say. The IDF and Israel are at fault period and no amount of spin will change that.
 
Whether legally justified or not, I think it's fair to say Israel has pretty much screwed the pooch, from an international Public Relations perspective.

On my end here, people are not at all impressed with them. They're not happy.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
...I can't believe that people tend to forget the Uss Liberty that was attacked by Israel also in international waters.
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The tragic friendly fire accidental attack concerning the U.S.S. Liberty is completely irrelvant to the current incident in question.
 
PeteEU said:
They were not. It is being floated by pro-Isreali sources with the help of the IDF spin machine.
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Tell yourself a lie enough times and you might as well believe it.
So since when do peaceful activists carry assault rifles?
At best they wrestled a weapon off the Israeli hit squads. In fact there are reports that 2 people were already killed before the troops set foot on the ships. It was not long after the raid that the IDF were out spinning about sling shots and knives... yea like the passengers are not allowed to defend themselves just because the opposition are IDF troops?
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And the soldiers have shot and stabbed themselves.
 
PeteEU said:
You mean the usual fabricated IDF evidence or the actual eyewitness evidence by the people on board?



It was.. till the IDF attacked the flotilla. The IDF fired the first "shot" so to say. The IDF and Israel are at fault period and no amount of spin will change that.
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Pete, you talk about "reports", but are they credible?
 
danarhea said:
Actually, it does not matter whether the ships were actually carrying weapons or not. The facts that

1) There was a blockade, and the flotilla announced they were going to run it

+

2) Israel did NOT know what the shipments contained, but based on past actions, had every reason to suspect that weapons MIGHT be among the contents

=

Reasonable suspicion, and therefore Israel's right to board and search the ships.
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You misunderstand my reason for asking. It was not to shed doubt on Israel's decision to not let the flotilla reach Gaza, it was because I prefer facts to made up ****. Since there is zero reporting on automatic weapons and explosives being transported on the ships, I figured the claim fell into the latter category. Of course, every so often, I end up being wrong, hence the asking for sources. I would hope we all want actual facts.
 
donsutherland1 said:
The tragic friendly fire accidental attack concerning the U.S.S. Liberty is completely irrelvant to the current incident in question.
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You beat me to it by just a few seconds. LOL.
 
Redress said:
You misunderstand my reason for asking. It was not to shed doubt on Israel's decision to not let the flotilla reach Gaza, it was because I prefer facts to made up ****. Since there is zero reporting on automatic weapons and explosives being transported on the ships, I figured the claim fell into the latter category. Of course, every so often, I end up being wrong, hence the asking for sources. I would hope we all want actual facts.
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Point taken, and I agree.
 
Sky news interviewing Palestinian representative saying no Israeli soldier was attacked while pictures of Israeli soldiers being lynched the moment they board the ship are looping on the background - priceless.
 
No one expected two different stories of course. Why don't we wait and see if the IDF was indeed attacked. I'm sure there will be evidence in terms of weapons and wounds.
 
gunner said:
I'll agree with you, twice.
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Did hell just freeze over? :2razz:

gunner said:
The commanders knew full well what could happen.
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Not on the basis of any previous experience boarding ships. No violence has ever occurred previous to this incident. This is why the commandos were only very lightly armed.

If we extrapolate on your worst-case logic here, then all policemen should be in SWAT gear whenever they answer a call. But as you well know, this approach is both impractical and illogical.
 


 
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Djoop said:
No one expected two different stories of course. Why don't we wait and see if the IDF was indeed attacked. I'm sure there will be evidence in terms of weapons and wounds.
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Tashah said:
Did hell just freeze over? :2razz:


Not on the basis of any previous experience boarding ships. No violence has ever occurred previous to this incident. This is why the commandos were only very lightly armed.
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I've agreed with you on numerous occasions:)

In addition to paint ball, were they not armed with pistols/rifles?

what would you deem a necessary level of firepower for the boarding of a ship? just for perspective reasons.....

Paul
 
The next territorial boundary marks the State's potential contiguous zone, which extends 24 miles offshore. Within this zone, a coastal state can stop and inspect vessels and act to punish (or prevent) violations of its laws within its territory or territorial waters. The contiguous zone solves a vexing problem. As Malcolm Evans describes it:

Traditionally, where the territorial sea ends, the high seas began and the laws of the coastal State no longer apply. However, policing maritime zones is no easy matter and, unlike land boundaries, they are simple to cross. It would therefore be easy for vessels to commit offences within the territorial sea but to evade arrest by moving just a little further seaward. The answer is to permit coastal States to arrest vessels outside their territorial seas in connection with offences that either have been committed or which it is suspected are going to be committed within their territorial sea.

In 1999 President Clinton extended the U.S.'s contiguous zone from 12 to 24 miles.

The potential territorial sea extends 12 miles off the coast. Here the State has territorial jurisdiction, but only up to a point--the right of innocent passage still applies. The LOSC says:

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or
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The Straight Dope: In international waters, are you beyond the reach of the law?
 
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