Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

Ikari said:

K, Madam Cleo. I guess you're psychic now and can read people's mind.

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No I just read your posts and your position. No mind reading necessary.

There are. The point is when those extremists pop up, I'll be there to remind them that they are here in part because of their actions.

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So its a pot meet kettle moment.

On this site, it's mostly Zionists and Zionist supporters. Therefore, when those people who are not honest enough to admit Israel's faults pop up; I'll just show them that Israel is where it is at in part to its own actions.

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Riiiight. There aren't any pro palestian anti Israeli people are there? LOL Still want to pretend you are neutral?

Where do they get all their **** from? And why is it that this conflict still rages then? Sounds to me that perhaps they can't finish a job.

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They stopped when the attacks stopped. You wanted them to go wipe out Egypt and Syria? Thats your position?

No, I told you exactly what they get to do. No one else gets to act with such disregard towards human rights and conditions as Israel with no negative consequences. They get our money our military tech to launch these operations, they behave in immoral manners against civilians, and they see no sanctions, no punishments, no nothing. They keep to go on doing what they are doing.

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I'll say it again real slow. You claimed Israel has said that they can do whatever they want because America will back them. I asked for a real example and the best you could do was equate behavior with a position based on personal theory.

It was a pathetic attempt to circumvent your claim. I called you on it and you ran away. Shocking.

Their alliance did though. Guess that shows you what entangled treaties can get you. Until that point, however, we were staying out of it.

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But they didn't. You just claimed we shouldn't get involved with a country that didn't attack us. Hypocritical debate is just a way of life for you.

I have been completely honest about my position. Its you people whom have tried to make it sound like something it isn't.

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No one is misrepresenting your position. You chose a side. Trying to pretend you haven't is just sad.

Ikari said:

Indeed. However, the fact is that you have mitigated to some level the lives of the people there. Cast it down so that you can excuse the behavior which results in the deaths of 20-30 civilians and 0 terrorists. Who's the real terrorist? The fact is that they did knowingly and conscientiously attack an area they knew to be well inhabited by civilians. That's that. It may not be Dresden, but it does demonstrate a certain lack of empathy and understanding of the other side's humanity in order to do. And it shows a certain moral ambiguity when they have zero problems take out 10's of civilians for a shot at 1 terrorist.

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The use of human shields does not make one immune from attack. The war crime is intermingeling with civilians in the first place not striking the terrorist who was using civilians as cover.

Update: Video from the ship(Not footage from above) released.
In it you can hear the soldiers as they're speaking between them on the radio line.
At start they struggle with the crowd and report on difficulties, and then at some point a shot is being heard and one of the soldiers is heard screaming "Living fire! They are firing on our forces!" and then another soldier is heard screaming "They have live weapons down there! They have live weapons!".

On other news, Gaza Strip - Israeli border escalated today.
Rockets were launched at Israel early on the morning, after that two militants have succeeded in breaching through the border but were located by IDF troops, and after a quick exchange of fire, have both dropped dead.
In response to the rockets launching the Israeli Air-Force has attacked a tunnel, killing 3 militants from the Islamic Jihad organization.

Apocalypse said:

The soldiers were equipped with pistols. They haven't used them all through the time where they were being lynched and attacked.
They have only drawn their pistols once the soldiers were engaged with live fire.
If anything, those who accuse those soldiers of disproportionality are those who should really be given a lesson about it.

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Killing 10 to 20 people and wounding 36 more while a single one is said to have stolen a pistol to an IDF soldier is very disproportionate.

bub said:

Killing 10 to 20 people and wounding 36 more while a single one is said to have stolen a pistol to an IDF soldier is very disproportionate.

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when under attack do you really COUNT how many are attacking?

texmaster said:

No I just read your posts and your position. No mind reading necessary.

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So you're just going by assumption then eh? K.

texmaster said:

So its a pot meet kettle moment.

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I've never completely defended Palestine nor said that they were 100% innocent. Maybe that's those assumptions that really throw off your mind reading skills.

texmaster said:

Riiiight. There aren't any pro palestian anti Israeli people are there? LOL Still want to pretend you are neutral?

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There aren't as many. Try reading. I didn't say there were none. Again with your assumptions. You're not doing a great job with them.

texmaster said:

They stopped when the attacks stopped. You wanted them to go wipe out Egypt and Syria? Thats your position?

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Nope, but they can't fight as well without the tremendous support they get from us. I'd rather the whole lot of them just drop this issue once and for all. But that's not going to happen any time soon. As such, my position is that we wipe our hands of the matter. No use getting drug into some dumb conflict that seemingly never ends. We have enough of that in Iraq; don't need more.

texmaster said:

I'll say it again real slow. You claimed Israel has said that they can do whatever they want because America will back them. I asked for a real example and the best you could do was equate behavior with a position based on personal theory.

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The bombing of civilian targets such as hotels and apartment complexes would usually contain with it international condemnation along with appropriate sanctions. Those sanctions never occur. The seizing of property of the Palestinian people and usurpation of more and more land would come with the same consequences, yet no consequences are born out. The occupation of lands, the sequestering of soldiers in houses kicking the families out, the caging in of an entire people would all normally carry with it several negative consequences. Yet the only one's realized are those which are written condemnation. There is no actual sanction or other economic/financial punishment handed down. This is in part due to American backing and our control of several of the international bodies.

texmaster said:

It was a pathetic attempt to circumvent your claim. I called you on it and you ran away. Shocking.

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I ran from nothing. You've merely not presented a clear enough argument or demonstrated your own position. I've explained everything to you clearly, I can't help it if you want to stick your head in the sand.

texmaster said:

But they didn't. You just claimed we shouldn't get involved with a country that didn't attack us. Hypocritical debate is just a way of life for you.

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The Axis alliance did not attack us? Japan did not bomb Pearl Harbor? Is this really going to be your defense? It's pretty pathetic if so.

texmaster said:

No one is misrepresenting your position. You chose a side. Trying to pretend you haven't is just sad.

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I haven't pretended that I didn't choose a side. More poor assumption on your part. You should maybe stop it.

bub said:

There is still the concept of proportionality, which is not yet understood by the IDF.

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Propertionality is a idiotic concept that has absoluty no place in war. That is not how wars a fought.

donsutherland1 said:

So far, I have seen no news story on that issue. Hopefully, the rumors are without foundation.

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I imagine it stems from that program I gave a link to earlier where someone asked what would be Israel's response if Turkey sent another boat with Naval support. This was no way it was suggesting this would or should be done, just asking to look at the situation a little more closely. It was a Turkish boat. It was intercepted in International water and boarded by force resulting in the loss of life. As it is a Turkish boat, Turkey does have some responsibility to protect it. It was just asking for a bigger look at the picture.

Edit: oops looks like I may be wrong if what you guys have said is correct. I would be surprised though.

jamesrage said:

Propertionality is a idiotic concept that has absoluty no place in war. That is not how wars a fought.

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Yeah, if you don't care about details like war crimes or international law...that's how you fight a war, indeed

jamesrage said:

Propertionality is a idiotic concept that has absoluty no place in war. That is not how wars a fought.

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that is how wars are lost

gunner said:

Is there any news as to what the persons on board ship have to say? Or is there still a communication shutdown...

Paul

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I read this earlier today where returning activists from Turkey and Greece claim that the IDF was the aggressor. I believe they were on board the ship where all the violence took place and some of the others:

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists | World news | guardian.co.uk

Not saying I believe this account, just putting it out there. So far I believe NO ONE's account, from either side. What a freaking mess this is.

bub said:

Killing 10 to 20 people and wounding 36 more while a single one is said to have stolen a pistol to an IDF soldier is very disproportionate.

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Three pistols were reportedly taken.
And we're speaking about a crowd of dozens of people equipped with cold weapons lynching the soldiers, out-numbering them 6 to 1.

Infinite Chaos said:

Israel has signed up to the accords if I recall correctly, that binds the state to adhere to the standards agreed: however recent history shows that Israel does not apply the conventions. The bulldozing of Palestinian homes so it could occupy territory is against the conventions but that doesn't stop Israel. BBC link

Further, Gisha have gone through the legality or otherwise of the blockade of Gaza here in more detail than I ever could but Israel continues to do it.

And here, you'll find the Geneva (Fourth Convention). Bulldozing Palestinian homes is against article 49 and deliberately punishing other people for crimes they did not personally commit is article 33.

It's a good and informative read.

**********EDIT***forgot to attach link to Fourth Convention)***EDIT**********

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The Geneva Conventions do not apply to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a) the disputed terrritories are not claimed by any sovereign state, and b) the governing authorities of the disputed territories are not high contracting parties to the GC nor do they abide by any of the provisions therein. The "Palestinians" are frankly lucky that the Israelis grant them such humane treatment rather than implementing the policies of the surrounding Muslim states.

bub said:

Yeah, if you don't care about details like war crimes or international law...that's how you fight a war, indeed

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So wait let me get this straight, in warfare you should count the number of rockets and bullets fired by your enemy and then fire the same amount back at them? Are you people serious?

Well watching the news. We have at least two Muslim Men missing. I suspect they are missing because they are Muslim. One of them was giving broadcasts throughout the journey, hardly the actions of a terrorist and the other a Scot (they may both have been Scot's) anyway the other managed to send photos while people were being shot. He has now disappeared. He clearly was not involved in any fighting as we could see him. Dad is frightened he will be being tortured just now. They can get no word on him.

I also listened to a retired American from one of the boats where there was no violence. He said the Israeli's beat some who were sitting down in passive resistance. This was a very old guy, maybe 70. He said his friend is in hospital because of the beating and that they will let no one see him because he is absolutely covered in bruises. The man was very shaken.

bub said:

There is still the concept of proportionality, which is not yet understood by the IDF.

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To Hell with proportionality! If someone attacks you, you don't hit back and then stop. You hit them until they beg you to stop, until they can't hit you anymore, or until your arms fall off.

Ikari said:

Indeed. However, the fact is that you have mitigated to some level the lives of the people there.

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That's what being "the enemy" is. That's what happens when two peoples go to war against each other.

Ikari said:

Who's the real terrorist?

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If terrorism is "using violence or the threat of violence to achieve political goals", then I would argue that all warfare and most diplomacy is terrorism. We're all terrorists-- or freedom fighters, depending on whose side you're on. It isn't a useful distinction, so I don't bother with it. There's us, our allies, our enemies, and then all the poor unfortunate souls who got themselves stuck between us and our enemies.

Those are useful distinctions.

bub said:

Yeah, if you don't care about details like war crimes or international law...that's how you fight a war, indeed

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Since when are wars fought with proportionality? I do not ever remember hearing about some general who wanted to use more troops but couldnn't because the enemy didn't have that many troops. It is not how you fight a war, if anything you fight a war with disproportionality . So I have to wonder what the hell they tought you school seeing how you prescribe to such idiotic unrealistic nonsense.

Korimyr the Rat said:

To Hell with proportionality! If someone attacks you, you don't hit back and then stop. You hit them until they beg you to stop, until they can't hit you anymore, or until your arms fall off.

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I don't think it is necessary to debate about that. I consider this principle as the most basic one in war, you don't, we just have different values.

alexa said:

Well watching the news. We have at least two Muslim Men missing. I suspect they are missing because they are Muslim. One of them was giving broadcasts throughout the journey, hardly the actions of a terrorist and the other a Scot (they may both have been Scot's) anyway the other managed to send photos while people were being shot. He has now disappeared. He clearly was not involved in any fighting as we could see him. Dad is frightened he will be being tortured just now. They can get no word on him.

I also listened to a retired American from one of the boats where there was no violence. He said the Israeli's beat some who were sitting down in passive resistance. This was a very old guy, maybe 70. He said his friend is in hospital because of the beating and that they will let no one see him because he is absolutely covered in bruises. The man was very shaken.

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The more I learn about the organization behind this incident the more I understand how this was the fault of pro-Islamist terrorist supporters:

A report by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) states that in addition to its legitimate philanthropic activities, IHH supports radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and has supported global jihad elements. In fact, IHH’s “orientation is radical-Islamic and anti-American, and it is close to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas’ parent movement. IHH supports Hamas and does not hide the connection between them.”

Radical Islam Behind the Flotilla Organizers - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News

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jamesrage said:

Since when are wars fought with proportionality? I do not ever remember hearing about some general who wanted to use more troops but couldnn't because the enemy didn't have that many troops. It is not how you fight a war, if anything you fight a war with disproportionality . So I have to wonder what the hell they tought you school seeing how you prescribe to such idiotic unrealistic nonsense.

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law maybe?

Proportionality (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

alexa said:

I also listened to a retired American from one of the boats where there was no violence. He said the Israeli's beat some who were sitting down in passive resistance. This was a very old guy, maybe 70. He said his friend is in hospital because of the beating and that they will let no one see him because he is absolutely covered in bruises. The man was very shaken.

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This account seems to corroborate what is reported in the Guardian article I posted above. If any of this is true, it's very ugly indeed. I can understand soldiers defending themselves when being attacked, but why become unnecessarily violent with people who offer no resistance at all?

"Alright folks, that would be 2,345 Japanese soldiers killed, just as much as we've lost in Pearl Harbor. Time to go back to America."

If only...

Apocalypse said:

"Alright folks, that would be 2,345 Japanese soldiers killed, just as much as we've lost in Pearl Harbor. Time to go back to America."

If only...

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How can you compare an humanitarian convoy trying to break an illegal blockade with Pearl Harbor?

bub said:

How can you compare an humanitarian convoy trying to break an illegal blockade to Pearl Harbor?

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If that is the mentality, what happened is not surprising.

bub said:

How can you compare an humanitarian convoy trying to break an illegal blockade with Pearl Harbor?

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Obvious strawman.
You were speaking about proportionality in wars in general, you said so yourself and I have witnesses.
That's what I was replying to.