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63% Favor Repeal of National Health Care Plan

Fine, so public good isn't the right term. You still haven't addressed the point you know I was trying to make.

(I just noticed that when it is pointed out I used the wrong term, I accept it. When I point out conservatives are using "socialism" wrong they start equivocating or change the subject)

I addressed it by noting that you're not looking at it right. Keeping something private should be the default position, and one would need a very good economic reason why socialization would work better if one wanted something private to be government-run. It's not the other way around, where you have to have a very good reason to keep something private and public is the default, since then almost everything would be public.
 
Here's a question:

Why shouldn't healthcare be considered an essential public service like police and fire protection?

Deuce,

Those are funded and implemented on a local scale, not a national scale. I don't think any conservative or libertarian would have an issue with locally administered healthcare services.
 
It looks like my link above is out of date. Here are some new stats, presenting a good news/bad news scenario. The good news is that infant mortality is on the decline world wide. The bad news is that our most expensive health care system in the world has fallen further behind.

Child mortality rates dropping, study finds, but U.S. lags




If outspending the rest of the world while lagging behind the UAR, Cuba, and Chile is where we want to be, then we're in a good place.

So we lag a few dinky little countries on a few social issues, big deal.
It's a wonder we don't have a mass exodus of citizens who want to live in the UAR, Cuba, Chile....:2razz:
 
Ahh, the lame defense of the left.
When stuck with reality poking them in the eye, throw a shovel of feces.

Disney, I used to be like you.
I was an unapologetic socialist.
180 degrees to where I am now.

I grew up. Traveled a ton, saw much of the socialist world, and with time came to the conclusion I was wrong on issue after issue. Though I fell into the socialist camp on issue after issue, I wasn't tied to the ideology, wasn't closed minded, it did not blind me. The last belief in socialism to fall was healthcare, and that was about 20-years ago.

It helps to have a voracious appetite for the truth.

And you? What's your excuse?

This is a good start to understand how feeble socialist states are when compared to US States.
The very best Euros are among the five worst US states. Enjoy.
http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

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Funny....I had exactly the opposite transformation. I bought into the whole Reagan idealogy and itwasn't until I got out in the real world and saw the after effects of Reaganomics that I shifted 180 degrees.

I saw that allowing capitalism to run amuk only resulted in the destruction of the middle class. The corporate elite now control over 93% of the resources/wealth of this country. THAT is outrageous.

They control the message that is sent out which allows them to convince people that it is OK to allow Corporate CEO's to line their pockets while keeping the working class hungry.
They bombard the airwave with propoganda to convince people that basic healthcare should be a luxury in a country that can afford to provide it for all.
Of course, the corporate elite might have to take a few million from the billions that they have benefitted from while giving back very little.

Yes..Zim....the people that you listen to are the very people who perpetuate this propoganda. Maybe if you stopped listening to them, it might change your perspective.
 
Funny....I had exactly the opposite transformation. I bought into the whole Reagan idealogy and itwasn't until I got out in the real world and saw the after effects of Reaganomics that I shifted 180 degrees.
You must have been born, gone through puberty and into adulthood all in 1980. How did you do that?

The Carter Years were so awful, so bad some folks we knew were thinking about leaving the USA. Stagflation, The Misery Index and The Oil Crisis were quickly resolved by gutting and cutting government. Of course, Carter is Obi's mentor when it comes to national security. The Iran hostage crisis was another wiener.

I saw that allowing capitalism to run amuk only resulted in the destruction of the middle class. The corporate elite now control over 93% of the resources/wealth of this country. THAT is outrageous.
The rich get richer in a tight society. In a regulated society. It is why upper mobility in Europe is tough, tough, tough. The Timbro study by Swedes (you trust Swedes don't you?) illustrates the low quality of life Europeans have, and the difficulty their bureaucracies breed.

Frankly, so long as the government doesn't own it... I don't much care (do not confuse don't much with do not). What is "corporate elite by the way? Can you show me a breakdown of

They control the message that is sent out which allows them to convince people that it is OK to allow Corporate CEO's to line their pockets while keeping the working class hungry.
Pure Unadulterated Bulloney.

The working class had a chance to move up, and the more reasonable the tax rates and regulation, the more chance motivated individuals can succeed.

If you want to blame a group for keeping the man down, look at unions. Look at the horrors they have wrought on our education system, on jobs that have been overpriced by miles and are now being taken on by foreign lands. Had they not been so greedy, things would be different. Michigan wouldn't be a Ghost State.

They bombard the airwave with propoganda to convince people that basic healthcare should be a luxury in a country that can afford to provide it for all.
Of course, the corporate elite might have to take a few million from the billions that they have benefitted from while giving back very little.
Sorry... but this is out and out laughable, borderline hysterically funny.

There is something called The Constitution. When you mandate healthcare through the government, it's employees become slaves of the state. Just look at Germany. They strike... the government... and they are loosing Doctors, while others leave the profession and wade into far more lucrative waters and waters where pay isn't regulated by a few hundred business illiterates at some national capitol.

Yes..Zim....the people that you listen to are the very people who perpetuate this propoganda. Maybe if you stopped listening to them, it might change your perspective.
LOL... do you write for Obama?
Stop listening? To both sides of the equation?
Perpetuate propaganda? How's this for an admission about the US press propagandizing for Democrats for decades?
Fineman: 'Mainstream Media Party' is over - Howard Fineman- msnbc.com

Sorry to disappoint you and Obi, but I prefer to hear all sides and then decide.
It would have been nice to have had Congress read the healthcare bill don't you think?

BTW... I have lived a life largely fed with socialist claptrap coming through the airwaves; whether in Euroland, Kanuckistan or the USSA.

Perhaps you should start listening.
You know... learning the lessons of history so we don't end up with another Marxist at the helm.

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63% of people listen to talk radio? :confused:

Is it not amazing, even incredible to find we have these Liberals who claim to be open minded, tolerant, and compassionate (some in national leadership positions even claim to be "Uniters) tell others to stop listening to talk radio. Stop watching FOXNEWS.

So open minded.
I fear for the children these folks may have.
Their minds will be so narrow you won't be able to tell they have a head if you look at them straight on.

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Is it not amazing, even incredible to find we have these Liberals who claim to be open minded, tolerant, and compassionate (some in national leadership positions even claim to be "Uniters) tell others to stop listening to talk radio. Stop watching FOXNEWS.

So open minded.
I fear for the children these folks may have.
Their minds will be so narrow you won't be able to tell they have a head if you look at them straight on.

.


I'm wondering how many of these folks who voted him in really regret their decision. I've been gone awhile and my curiousity is genuine.
 
I addressed it by noting that you're not looking at it right. Keeping something private should be the default position, and one would need a very good economic reason why socialization would work better if one wanted something private to be government-run. It's not the other way around, where you have to have a very good reason to keep something private and public is the default, since then almost everything would be public.

Right, which is exactly what I've done on this board over and over. Shown that health care has a good reason to be socialized.
 
Right, which is exactly what I've done on this board over and over. Shown that health care has a good reason to be socialized.
When?:confused:
 
Well of course they want it repealed. I want it repealed too. It isn't real reform.

The reform I would like to see is the one with Freedom at the forefront.

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Right, which is exactly what I've done on this board over and over. Shown that health care has a good reason to be socialized.

Go to Germany, France, England... hell anywhere in Europe and tell me the good reasons?

Hell, go north of the border and watch a system in decay... one that is so bad the Supreme Court of Quebec stated a waiting list is not care.

Frankly, Socialmed as in Kanuckistan and Euroland is flat out retarded.

I could understand it if our government ran a great, lean government for the past 50-years, and could show how frugal and efficient it is with our money... but...

That's a fairy tale.

You believe in fairy tales?

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Of course, when you actually explain what's in the bill to people the approval jumps to a majority but we don't really need to pay attention to that do we?

I imagine a lot of people would approve of John McCain's "Internet Freedom Act" without being told what it does.

(it would be better titled internet censorship act)

Link?......
 
Is there a link to back up any president's crack use, or is that just another pile of partisan crap?

Years later in his 1995 memoir, he mentioned smoking “reefer” in “the dorm room of some brother” and talked about “getting high.” Before Occidental, he indulged in marijuana, alcohol and sometimes cocaine as a high school student in Hawaii, according to the book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/politics/09obama.html

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration joined a federal judge Wednesday in urging Congress to end a racial disparity by equalizing prison sentences for dealing and using crack versus powdered cocaine.

Obama seeks crack cocaine sentence changes - White House- msnbc.com

You tell me.... and I know, just right wing sources, right?
 
So we lag a few dinky little countries on a few social issues, big deal.
It's a wonder we don't have a mass exodus of citizens who want to live in the UAR, Cuba, Chile....:2razz:

That's why we need a fence on our Southern border.... oh wait....
 
Like this poll matters.
A. I guarentee you 99% of the people in this poll read the bill for themselves and didn't rely on Rush Limbaugh or Chris Matthews to tell them what it does.
B. Most people haven't felt the affects of this bill so their view will likely change.
 
Like this poll matters.
It will matter in November, Rasmussen polls likely voters. We have to see how it shakes out.
A. I guarentee you 99% of the people in this poll read the bill for themselves and didn't rely on Rush Limbaugh or Chris Matthews to tell them what it does.
I'm an insurance agent and the major provisions of this bill absolutely suck. I've been over the worst of what I have personally seen and advise people to vote for repeal candidates NOW.
B. Most people haven't felt the affects of this bill so their view will likely change.
You're right, sort of. People's attitudes will change from replacing sitting legislators to incarcerate and execute all who voted for the bill when the major provisions kick in. People are looking at anywhere from 35-55% premium increases, and that's a minimum estimate.
 
I'm wondering how many of these folks who voted him in really regret their decision. I've been gone awhile and my curiousity is genuine.

Billboard in Marshall, Texas.

oembarrassed.jpg





:mrgreen:
 
It will matter in November, Rasmussen polls likely voters. We have to see how it shakes out.

I agree, I'm just saying it doesn't matter now, but yes it will matter during general elections.
 
Link?......

FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Health Care Polls: Opinion Gap or Information Gap?

Unless you meant the McCain thing.

What we see is that most individual components of the bill are popular -- in some cases, quite popular. But awareness lags behind. Only 61 percent are aware that the bill bans denials of coverage for pre-existing conditions. Only 42 percent know that it bans lifetime coverage limits. Only 58 percent are aware that it set up insurance exchanges. Just 44 percent know that it closes the Medicare donut hole -- and so on and so forth.
 

Yeah, I remember reading that and being disappointed in Nate Silver, because usually I like him but that is complete smug, elitist, BS spin. One, it doesn't poll likely voters, who are much more likely to have a higher awareness of such issues. Two, the bill is so huge and complicated that nobody has the capacity to sufficiently understand it - especially not after just a one-sentence blurb of each component. Three, if I like every component in a sandwich except the turd in the middle, that doesn't mean I want to eat the sandwich. Four, according to that study, the bill's opponents and supporters both have the same level of awareness. And I could go on.


Most importantly, if the public can be manipulated that easily, democracy doesn't work, period.
 
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