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Ga. Seniors Told They Can't Pray Before Meals

Tashah said:
It occurred to me that perhaps the seniors are saying a heartfelt prayer of thanks for their subsidized meal.

How ironic that the same entity which graciously provides the food subsidy also forbids a gracious prayer of thanks for it.
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Thank you Tashah. I see what you are saying here, and you're right! Sadly!


j-mac
 
Tashah said:
It occurred to me that perhaps the seniors are saying a heartfelt prayer of thanks for their subsidized meal.

How ironic that the same entity which graciously provides the food subsidy also forbids a gracious prayer of thanks for it.
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How would you actually know that for sure?
 
LiberalAvenger said:
How would you actually know that for sure?
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*tink* *tink* *tink*.....hey LA! How about my question? Are you proscribing that those that want to have a group prayer in a public setting need a permit?


j-mac
 
Tashah said:
I'll return the volley... how could you actually disallow that for sure?
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Actually it is irrelevant what they are praying for. This is an ad infinitum argument about opinions.

Nothing in history has led to more war and bloodshed than organized religion going back in time to it's original origins.

Today the Judeo-Christian organized religions are engaged in a war against the organized Muslim Religion.

Religion is strange. It was only a small time in history that Christians were engaged in pogroms against the Jews, for example.

It never ends.
 
j-mac said:
*tink* *tink* *tink*.....hey LA! How about my question? Are you proscribing that those that want to have a group prayer in a public setting need a permit?


j-mac
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No I am only saying that in a government subsidized home that organized prayer is against the establishment of religion clause of the constitution.
 
LiberalAvenger said:
No I am only saying that in a government subsidized home that organized prayer is against the establishment of religion clause of the constitution.
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I think you may have the story wrong here. The government is subsidizing the meal that is delivered through a private contractor to the home, that gets it's subsidy from the federal government. Not the home itself.

Secondly, the employees that noticed the resident praying before the meal seem to be the ones offended here, not the government as they reversed the decision made by the over zealous food provider.

Lastly, if saying grace before a meal is some sort of melding of state and religion just because the meal is paid for by the federal government, then I think you would have to show me where the government agent was making them pray, or leading the prayer. Other than that all we have here is some liberal jerk that doesn't like this sort of thing, and picked an easy target to pick on. They should be ashamed.


j-amc
 
LiberalAvenger said:
No I am only saying that in a government subsidized home that organized prayer is against the establishment of religion clause of the constitution.
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then the case law you tried to use is irrelevant.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I think you may have the story wrong here. The government is subsidizing the meal that is delivered through a private contractor to the home, that gets it's subsidy from the federal government. Not the home itself.

Secondly, the employees that noticed the resident praying before the meal seem to be the ones offended here, not the government as they reversed the decision made by the over zealous food provider.

Lastly, if saying grace before a meal is some sort of melding of state and religion just because the meal is paid for by the federal government, then I think you would have to show me where the government agent was making them pray, or leading the prayer. Other than that all we have here is some liberal jerk that doesn't like this sort of thing, and picked an easy target to pick on. They should be ashamed.


j-amc
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Did you just call me a liberal jerk?:rofl

BTW, why do you think it was a liberal?
 
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LiberalAvenger said:
Did you just call me a liberal jerk?:rofl
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No no...I was speaking of the employee of Senior Citizens Inc. that provides the meals, that blew the whistle on this.

BTW, why do you think it was a liberal?
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Take a good reading of the positions taken in here on this question, and you tell me how to those opposed to letting these people have their prayer before lunch line up in the political spectrum?



j-mac
 
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j-mac said:
No no...I was speaking of the employee of Senior Citizens Inc. that provides the meals, that blew the whistle on this.


j-mac
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I know, just kidding, big trucker.:2razz:
 
j-mac said:
Lastly, if saying grace before a meal is some sort of melding of state and religion just because the meal is paid for by the federal government, then I think you would have to show me where the government agent was making them pray, or leading the prayer. Other than that all we have here is some liberal jerk that doesn't like this sort of thing, and picked an easy target to pick on. They should be ashamed.

j-amc
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I think they should be more than ashamed. Turn a statist tactic around on them and find every single legal violation they committed and throw the book at 'em for all of them.
 
j-mac said:
We all lose when things like what you are saying here are taken for intelligent discourse. Sorry, but that is just how I feel about it. Oh, and one other thing here, you and others seem to have assumed and labeled me, or others as some kind of hyper religious types. Clearly, you must feel some guilt in what you say, fore there would be little reason for you to cast such an imagined dispersion toward people that disagree with you whether you know them to actually be religious or not. It is IMHO, a small, and closed minded approach to this question, and one that should be as equally dismissed as the argument you and others are attempting to make.

No one that I know of by reading the article is forcing anything on anyone, other than the weasel from the food service company that felt their subsidy threatened through an over zealous reading of the regulations.

As for your hypothetical, you can most certainly carry on a conversation during a prayer in public, however, what you can not expect is that if you chose to do so without considering others around you and what they wish to participate in or not, is a POV from a deeply narcissistic stand, and one that is void of others wishes. So why should they respect yours?


j-mac
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No, 'we' don't lose when you take what i'm saying as a poor substitute for intelligent discourse - you do. Your opinion is that me and the others who do not wish to participate in your religious public ceremony should be silent and observe, which is in effect you telling me that I should participate. That's the same argument you types always put up claiming to be in defense of your religion, and until you understand that this is exactly why you keep seeing more and more removal of religious ideology from public institutions and locations, I expect these kind of threads will continue.

Furthermore, you speak of my viewpoint as being narcissistic simply because I don't wish to be forced into silence in a public place over a religious ideology that I don't believe in. That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying abolish your ceremonies in public. I'm saying STOP forcing me to be quiet and participate, observe, or whatever. If you can't accept the fact that there are many other people on this planet who do not want to participate in your religion, again, be prepared to see your public religious ceremonies removed. In other words, stop telling me to be quiet when you're having your public prayer. My conversation was already taking place, anyway, so the reality of the situation is that they interrupted me.

Oh, and regarding your belief that I feel guilty by failing to participate in or observe your particular religious ceremonies, nice try. Since we are apparently into hurling rampant generalizations about one another, perhaps it is you that feels guilty for devoting such attention to some nonexistent superbeing? If so, perhaps you would be less crestfallen if you were to devote your attention to a much cooler entity, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Pastafarianism is all the rage these days.
 
Singularity said:
No, 'we' don't lose when you take what i'm saying as a poor substitute for intelligent discourse - you do. Your opinion is that me and the others who do not wish to participate in your religious public ceremony should be silent and observe, which is in effect you telling me that I should participate. That's the same argument you types always put up claiming to be in defense of your religion, and until you understand that this is exactly why you keep seeing more and more removal of religious ideology from public institutions and locations, I expect these kind of threads will continue.

Furthermore, you speak of my viewpoint as being narcissistic simply because I don't wish to be forced into silence in a public place over a religious ideology that I don't believe in. That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying abolish your ceremonies in public. I'm saying STOP forcing me to be quiet and participate, observe, or whatever. If you can't accept the fact that there are many other people on this planet who do not want to participate in your religion, again, be prepared to see your public religious ceremonies removed. In other words, stop telling me to be quiet when you're having your public prayer. My conversation was already taking place, anyway, so the reality of the situation is that they interrupted me.

Oh, and regarding your belief that I feel guilty by failing to participate in or observe your particular religious ceremonies, nice try. Since we are apparently into hurling rampant generalizations about one another, perhaps it is you that feels guilty for devoting such attention to some nonexistent superbeing? If so, perhaps you would be less crestfallen if you were to devote your attention to a much cooler entity, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Pastafarianism is all the rage these days.
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Is there some all encompassing discussion that you have that hinges on saving the world from something wishing to destroy it? Some all important discussion that you feel the need to disrespect others, while at the same time demanding that they respect you? You know just because you don't believe what others do doesn't mean that you, or they are right, it is just a simple respect given another in this world.

I feel sorry for you having to live in a place where you are the extreme minority based on your belief of nothing, fore you therefore are subject to believe anything. Oh wait, you aren't forced are you? You could just leave.


j-mac
 
Religion is of the supernatural realm. I would rather keep the supernatural in my own mind and talk about reality and natural things.
 
LiberalAvenger said:
Religion is of the supernatural realm. I would rather keep the supernatural in my own mind and talk about reality and natural things.
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maybe that is good enough for you, that's fine. No one would ever tell you that you must believe anything you don't wish to. Now turn it around, why the old people man? That was just low.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
maybe that is good enough for you, that's fine. No one would ever tell you that you must believe anything you don't wish to. Now turn it around, why the old people man? That was just low.


j-mac
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I have no idea of what you just said.:confused:
 
LiberalAvenger said:
I have no idea of what you just said.:confused:
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I said that you believe that its a 'supernatural' thing, and that's fine. What ever it is, it gives comfort to these old people in GA. Why would someone want to mess with that?


j-mac
 
Pissing in the swimming pool may give comfort to an individual, but not to those forced to swim with them.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Pissing in the swimming pool may give comfort to an individual, but not to those forced to swim with them.
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Ah so now people were compelled to pray......see that changes the whole thing. Wait.....what? It was 100% voluntary? So no one was forced to pray? Ah, so then you're misrepresenting the issue. The fact is that these people were invited to voluntarily pray, which means that those who didn't want to didn't have to, which means that there was no attempt to establish religion. All that means that the seniors had the right to pray, and have it led by someone, and that right was violated.
 
Here's something that needs to be noted:

It wasn't the federal government that imposed this rule. It was a private organization. This private organization has every right to impose such rules (even if, as is the case here, these rules are based on a silly misinterpretation).

Is it a silly rule? Yes.

Is it their right to have silly rules? Yes.
 
j-mac said:
Is there some all encompassing discussion that you have that hinges on saving the world from something wishing to destroy it? Some all important discussion that you feel the need to disrespect others, while at the same time demanding that they respect you? You know just because you don't believe what others do doesn't mean that you, or they are right, it is just a simple respect given another in this world.
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Really? Because I didn't hear word one from you about my particular rights here, nor any modicum of respect towards me. Quite the contrary, actually. You steadfastly maintain that I should observe and participate in a religious ceremony in which I have no interest in participating. Add to the fact that this was a public place, and those individuals engaging in their particular religious ceremony were demanding me to stop my conversation and observe their particular brand of ideology by ceasing said conversation...yeah, no thank you.

What you're failing to understand is that the days of this sorta stuff are rapidly coming to an end, and because of the very same argument you are putting forth against my position. You maintain that public prayer should not only be allowed, but those of us who don't buy into your particular ideology should observe and participate. Too bad if we don't believe; to you, we are in the wrong, and we should either start prayin' or stay out of public areas.

No thanks. Pray in public all you want, but don't expect me to participate or leave because you dislike me chatting it up while you want the world to be silent in respect for your deity.

j-mac said:
I feel sorry for you having to live in a place where you are the extreme minority based on your belief of nothing, fore you therefore are subject to believe anything. Oh wait, you aren't forced are you? You could just leave.


j-mac
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Ah yes, I was wondering when the Utilitarian argument was gonna make an appearance, that atheists are some 'extreme minority' and therefore we should bow to the apparent overwhelming majority of religious zealots. And if we don't? Your suggestion is that we simply 'leave'. No thanks. See, like you, I pay my taxes. Unlike you, I don't force my atheism onto other folks, nor expect them to be quiet while me and my friends are discussing, say, Richard Dawkins in a public arena. And since this was a public event, and my money was just as good as his, I did what any red-blooded American should do in such a situation. Removing the colorful language, I basically told him to shut up and mind his own business.

How's that for free speech?
 
What about the intolerance by the members who wanted to pray against the members who wanted them to STFU.

What if I were at the table and wanted to discuss my beliefs about synchronicity instead of of praying to their god? Would they have sat their while I lectured them on Carl Jung?

What about the beliefs of someone different than their own? Would they have tolerance for that? I think not.
 
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