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Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

hazlnut said:
Let's see.....

Liberals are cowards that burn the flag - Check.

and

Conservatives are real men like James Dean, Montgomery Clift, and Rock Hudson...
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Three good actors my left wing friend........As far as conservatives go I would say John Wayne, Charlton Heston and Clint Eastwood..........
 
Guy Incognito said:
Maybe the administrator was just trying to enforce United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8 (d), which states that flags must never be worn as apparel?

What’s wrong with teaching kids to show proper respect for the flag?
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What is ironic is you left wingers have a problem with someone wearing a flag as a shirt but have no problem when left wingers burn the flag..........
 
Navy Pride said:
What is ironic is you left wingers have a problem with someone wearing a flag as a shirt but have no problem when left wingers burn the flag..........
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We haven't burned a flag since 1968. Where have you been?
 
Mickey Shane said:
We haven't burned a flag since 1968. Where have you been?
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Left wingers burned flags in 1991 at protests during the Gulf War and prior to invading Iraq.......They even burned a soldier in effigy...........Were you there?
 
Navy Pride said:
Three good actors my left wing friend........As far as conservatives go I would say John Wayne, Charlton Heston and Clint Eastwood..........
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....and Chuck Norris.
 
Navy Pride said:
What is ironic is you left wingers have a problem with someone wearing a flag as a shirt but have no problem when left wingers burn the flag..........
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So you're calling the flag code promulgated by the US government left-wing?

While I'm not a left-winger by any means, you are sure right that I have a problem with somebody wearing a flag as apparel. It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag that I love so dearly. I also have a problem with anybody burning a flag, although I recognize their Constitutional right to do so.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
So you're calling the flag code promulgated by the US government left-wing?

While I'm not a left-winger by any means, you are sure right that I have a problem with somebody wearing a flag as apparel. It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag that I love so dearly. I also have a problem with anybody burning a flag, although I recognize their right to do so.
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That's a nice ploy, but it's irrelevant in this thread.
 
American said:
That's a nice ploy, but it's irrelevant in this thread.
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That and the fact that this was never mentioned anywhere, in any news outlet or comment from the school. This is simply an attempt to make excuses for the principal's behavior.
 
American said:
That's a nice ploy, but it's irrelevant in this thread.
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Ploy? It's at the heart of the issue, in this cartoonist's opinion. Sure, I recognize what the administrator actually suspended the students for, but I find it highly irritating that in all this discussion nobody is bothering to bring up the fact that what these kids did is highly disrespectful to the flag.
 
Guy Incognito said:
What’s wrong with teaching kids to show proper respect for the flag?
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Very good point about proper respect.
You do realize the difference between wearing an actual flag as clothing and wearing an t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Ploy? It's at the heart of the issue, in this cartoonist's opinion. Sure, I recognize what the administrator actually suspended the students for, but I find it highly irritating that in all this discussion nobody is bothering to bring up the fact that what these kids did is highly disrespectful to the flag.
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What they did was not illegal, nor did it break a school rule. Next.
 
Redbeard said:
Very good point about proper respect.
You do realize the difference between wearing an actual flag as clothing and wearing an t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag.
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That's a fair point, but I would argue it is a mistaken one. Wherever a flag is printed it is actual flag material. There are very strict rules about wearing the flag, even an image of the flag (the two are really indistinct). It is limited to a lapel pin (which is also just a "picture" of a flag, but nevertheless governed by US Flag Code).

Furthermore, even if we grant-- and I do not grant this, but for the sake of arugment-- that an image of a flag incorporate into a t-shirt is acceptable (say, a reprint of the Iowa Jima monument), that is not what these kids were wearing. At least one of them wore a shirt that was covered 100% with the pattern of the flag, it looked like he'd taken a flag an cut out holes to turn it into a shirt, for crying out loud.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Ploy? It's at the heart of the issue, in this cartoonist's opinion. Sure, I recognize what the administrator actually suspended the students for, but I find it highly irritating that in all this discussion nobody is bothering to bring up the fact that what these kids did is highly disrespectful to the flag.
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No it wasn't. It hasn't been seen as a sign of disrespect since Tommy Hilfiger did his best to ruin black fashion in the early 1990's.
 
T-shirts not made of same material as flags.
A second look at the lad you are questioning would reveal the back being all white material, front being a picture of a flag waving in the breeze.
 
Sorry, jallman, but you lost me there. I don't really follow the world of haute fashion very closely.

Regardless, it does not matter what fashion designers may be doing with the flag, or what is or is not "acceptable." It is an issue of following US flag code. I will grant you that it is not binding law on how to handle the flag, it says so within the code. According to the first amendment you can trample the flag into the dirt and be within your rights. But that doesn't make it "acceptable" even if everybody else is doing it.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Sorry, jallman, but you lost me there. I don't really follow the world of haute fashion very closely.

Regardless, it does not matter what fashion designers may be doing with the flag, or what is or is not "acceptable." It is an issue of following US flag code. I will grant you that it is not binding law on how to handle the flag, it says so within the code. According to the first amendment you can trample the flag into the dirt and be within your rights. But that doesn't make it "acceptable" even if everybody else is doing it.
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And the US flag code only states that the flag itself cannot be used as clothing, not that the flag may not appear on clothing. The flag itself may not be used as a drape, bedding, clothing, statue cover, ceiling cover, nor should it be flown on the same staff as another banner other than a state flag. And then it should always be flown on top.

The only things the flag is prohibited from appearing on at all are napkins, paper products, handkerchiefs, boxes or other disposable items.

And anyone who believes this principal was trying to be adhere to an obscure code on how to handle the flag, with the most draconian interpretation of that code ever presented, then they are either agenda driven or just plain full of it.
 
Redbeard said:
T-shirts not made of same material as flags.
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Neither are lapel pins or patches, but they are still governed by flag code.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 8 Respect for Flag said:
"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."
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Simply put, Flag Code governs all images of the flag, whether they are actuals flags or not. Flag Code is voluntary, but it is still necessary to follow it if you want to show proper respect to our flag.
 
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jallman said:
And the US flag code only states that the flag itself cannot be used as clothing, not that the flag may not appear on clothing. The flag itself may not be used as a drape, bedding, clothing, statue cover, ceiling cover, nor should it be flown on the same staff as another banner other than a state flag. And then it should always be flown on top.

The only things the flag is prohibited from appearing on at all are napkins, paper products, handkerchiefs, boxes or other disposable items.
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What about Missiles? Or condoms?

You shouldn't write the f-word on a military airplane... because it's obscene.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Sorry, jallman, but you lost me there. I don't really follow the world of haute fashion very closely.

Regardless, it does not matter what fashion designers may be doing with the flag, or what is or is not "acceptable." It is an issue of following US flag code. I will grant you that it is not binding law on how to handle the flag, it says so within the code. According to the first amendment you can trample the flag into the dirt and be within your rights. But that doesn't make it "acceptable" even if everybody else is doing it.
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i agree with your position. VFW Post 2423 offers the following flag etiquette to maintain standards of respect:
The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:

The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.

The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.

The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.

The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
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VFW Post 2423 - Flag Etiquette

and this etiquette is becoming more ignored over time, to the point that it has become acceptable in many quarters to ignore its provisions - especially regarding attire. go to any country western event and you will see the flag as ornamentation in the audience and frequently even on stage

but the school indicated the kids were welcome to wear their inappropriate flag attire on any other day. which means this legitimate reason to take issue with what they were wearing was not the basis for their punishment

what we do not know - at least i do not know - is whether the students were provocative toward the mexican-American students in ways other than the wearing of flag attire, and that was justification for the way this was (poorly) handled
 
Guy Incognito said:
Neither are lapel pins or patches, but they are still governed by flag code.



Simply put, Flag Code governs all images of the flag, whether they are actuals flags or not. Flag Code is voluntary, but it is still necessary to follow it if you want to show proper respect to our flag.
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Which bans an image of a flag...how? :confused:
 
jallman said:
And the US flag code only states that the flag itself cannot be used as clothing, not that the flag may not appear on clothing. The flag itself may not be used as a drape, bedding, clothing, statue cover, ceiling cover, nor should it be flown on the same staff as another banner other than a state flag. And then it should always be flown on top.

The only things the flag is prohibited from appearing on at all are napkins, paper products, handkerchiefs, boxes or other disposable items.

And anyone who believes this principal was trying to be adhere to an obscure code on how to handle the flag, with the most draconian interpretation of that code ever presented, then they are either agenda driven or just plain full of it.
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I agree.Anyone who thinks the flag code applies to any image of a flag should ask themselves "why do deployed troops have an American flag patch on their BDUs(I think now they are called MCCUU's,ACU's,ABU's, and NWUs depending on branch of service) if the flag code applies to any image of an American flag?
 
hazlnut said:
Waving an American flag doesn't make you pure. Anyone with a working arm can do it.
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And Cinco de Mayo isn't even a major holiday in Mexico. Honestly, people should stop obsessing over empty symbols. A flag is nothing more than a convenient identifier for nationality. Holidays are just excuses for people to do something they don't do all the time.
 
justabubba said:
but the school indicated the kids were welcome to wear their inappropriate flag attire on any other day. which means this legitimate reason to take issue with what they were wearing was not the basis for their punishment

what we do not know - at least i do not know - is whether the students were provocative toward the mexican-American students in ways other than the wearing of flag attire, and that was justification for the way this was (poorly) handled
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I agree with you, justabubba, and I'll readily admit that the administrator's decision does not seem to have been based on flag code whatsoever. It is really my personal axe to grind, because I think about it every time I see a flag t-shirt, this is just a high profile example.

As for the students being provocative, I agree with you there as well. It really all hinges on that, and I honestly don't know either. So I'm withholding my judgment there.
 
jamesrage said:
I agree.Anyone who thinks the flag code applies to any image of a flag should ask themselves "why do deployed troops have an American flag patch on their BDUs(I think now they are called MCCUU's,ACU's,ABU's, and NWUs depending on branch of service) if the flag code applies to any image of an American flag?
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This is why:
TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 8 Respect for Flag said:
"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."
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Guy Incognito said:
This is why:
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That's an actual flag patch...meaning a miniature flag. It's not an image embroidered or screen printed on a shirt.

Let's not go all "image of the prophet mohammed" over the american flag, mkay?
 
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