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Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

Are you kidding? You have any idea how many muslim-driven terror attacks there have been in europe over the last 15-20 years?

If anything, Europe should have expelled its entire muslim population a while ago.

Whoa...slow down. This attitude is presicely why Europe always has these problems. Europe developed into a very tribal region because of expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Whether we talk about the Christian reformation or Germany's scourge across Europe, we are essentially talking about the unity of tribal identities against others.

Europe has always looked the other way as outsiders walked in until it was determined that they were no longer welcome. Why do you think America's immigrant programs are so far ahead of Europe's? America's history is one of immigration. It's a basic strength. But Europe's sense of immigration has always been temporary because at it's core there is a sense of the "true" European and "outsiders." Maybe after a few more social laws and such Europe will be forced to rediscover its identity.
 
Whoa...slow down. This attitude is presicely why Europe always has these problems. Europe developed into a very tribal region because of expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Whether we talk about the Christian reformation or Germany's scourge across Europe, we are essentially talking about the unity of tribal identities against others.

Europe has always looked the other way as outsiders walked in until it was determined that they were no longer welcome. Why do you think America's immigrant programs are so far ahead of Europe's? America's history is one of immigration. It's a basic strength. But Europe's sense of immigration has always been temporary because at it's core there is a sense of the "true" European and "outsiders." Maybe after a few more social laws and such Europe will be forced to rediscover its identity.

PHOENIX — Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed the nation’s toughest bill on illegal immigration into law on Friday. Its aim is to identify, prosecute and deport illegal immigrants.

Arizona Enacts Stringent Law on Immigration - NYTimes.com
 
But even if it was religious, do you not think that some things (like female excision) should be forbidden because they are against human rights, even if they are written in some old book?

I think there is a separation between religion and government for a reason. The law should allow for the wearing of it and for the non wearing of it and that it is up to the individual wearing it, no her husband. It is up to the woman to dial "911."

Since we perceive the burqa as a sign of submission, it's normal that we ban it.

It's religious oppression for some. what should be banned is the forced wearing of it. Once again, it is the woman's responsibility to declare her own rights under the law....but it should be a law where she makes the decision.


Well the difference is that you don't have 30 millions of Muslims in the USA. And I'm not sure the picture is so "black and white": wasn't there a huge debate about Obama being Muslim?

Mostly political grand standing amongst Republicans and a matter of color for others. But the President he is. There is no law that states that Muslims can't hold office.

What other laws?
Well, there was (is?) the "stop and search" policies in the UK. France has laws against the full faced veil. The Burqa is a source of policy across your region, not just Belgium. I dare say that this is all going on throughout the region, but I haven't exactly made it a source of personal interest.
 

I've noticed over time that Europeans scrape anything they can from America to justify extreme behavior in Europe. This is state law. Not federal law and it pertains to "illegal" immigrants who sneak in and burden border towns and cities. Are Mexican border hoppers special? While the rest of the world saves up to travel across the ocean and goes through the procedures of doing it legally, Mexicans get to simply tunnel in? This is hardly the same thing as religious mandating.

Why is it that Europeans seem to unanimously overlook the "illegal" part that goes with "immigrant" in our grumblings? It doesn't justify European ethnic cleansing or laws that prescribe how people worship God.
 
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I think there is a separation between religion and government for a reason. The law should allow for the wearing of it and for the non wearing of it and that it is up to the individual wearing it, no her husband. It is up to the woman to dial "911."

you don't answer the question: should we allow everything because it is "religious"?



It's religious oppression for some. what should be banned is the forced wearing of it. Once again, it is the woman's responsibility to declare her own rights under the law....but it should be a law where she makes the decision.

Well there are arguments against the burqa itself, like the fact that it prevents a social life or integration. We consider that law is something that has to protect the "vivre ensemble" (living together). That's a different approach.


Mostly political grand standing amongst Republicans and a matter of color for others. But the President he is. There is no law that states that Muslims can't hold office.

The fact that there is such a debate still means something

Well, there was (is?) the "stop and search" policies in the UK. France has laws against the full faced veil. The Burqa is a source of policy across your region, not just Belgium. I dare say that this is all going on throughout the region, but I haven't exactly made it a source of personal interest.

So it's just laws about burqas. Not laws about Muslims being forced to use separate bathrooms or laws forcing Muslims to give up their seat to white people in busses.
 
I've noticed over time that Europeans scrape anything they can from America to justify extreme behavior in Europe. This is state law. Not federal law and it pertains to "illegal" immigrants who sneak in and burden border towns and cities. Are Mexican border hoppers special? While the rest of the world saves up to travel across the ocean and goes through the procedures of doing it legally, Mexicans get to simply tunnel in? This is hardly the same thing as religious mandating.

Why is it that Europeans seem to unanimously overlook the "illegal" part that goes with "immigrant" in our grumblings? It doesn't justify European ethnic cleansing or laws that prescribe how people worship God.

"illegal"? Why did you make laws regulating the way people can move through your borders? It's against their basic freedom to move and live where they want! How dare you making laws about that!
 
"illegal"? Why did you make laws regulating the way people can move through your borders? It's against their basic freedom to move and live where they want! How dare you making laws about that!

Try the :mrgreen: or something like "[/sarcasm]" when you are not being serious.... someone might take you seriously and conclude you drowned in the gene pool.
 
Try the :mrgreen: or something like "[/sarcasm]" when you are not being serious.... someone might take you seriously and conclude you drowned in the gene pool.

What if I was serious?


























:mrgreen:
 
you don't answer the question: should we allow everything because it is "religious"?

A burqa is everything? This is a loaded question based on an attempt to include extremist activity in minor issues of insignificance. Of course, you shouldn't allow human sacrifice. But this isn't what you are seeking to deny. You may as well deny the wearing of crosses. Some Christiains, who don't even wear crosses around their necks, would find offense.

It's an unnecessary push.

Well there are arguments against the burqa itself, like the fact that it prevents a social life or integration.

This is a western perspective all over. Americans see it as the same thing. But is it an necessary or unnecessary push? We have a very distinct handful of morons who pass around Rattle Snakes in church as a showing of their faith in God. There is no law against this even though it would be in their best interest. What there is is an ever lasting mockery from the rest of us and a 911 service.


The fact that there is such a debate still means something

There's no debate. There never really was. Just a political tool like any other used to damage the other side. But you are attempting to use one American political individual to equate to European population prescription.

So it's just laws about burqas. Not laws about Muslims being forced to use separate bathrooms or laws forcing Muslims to give up their seat to white people in busses.

It's laws about religion. Pretty it up all you like. And using long gone racial laws in America to justify it is supposed to do what? Legitimize it? Can America justify throwing Muslims in ovens since Europe made a party of it in regards ot Jews? Or would I just be seeking a way to somehow make it OK?
 
"illegal"? Why did you make laws regulating the way people can move through your borders? It's against their basic freedom to move and live where they want! How dare you making laws about that!

There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.

Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?
 
There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.

Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?

More like the old folks that want to come live with their kids.
 
A burqa is everything? This is a loaded question based on an attempt to include extremist activity in minor issues of insignificance. Of course, you shouldn't allow human sacrifice. But this isn't what you are seeking to deny. You may as well deny the wearing of crosses. Some Christiains, who don't even wear crosses around their necks, would find offense.

It's an unnecessary push.

So we both agree that we can ban something even if it is religious
This is a western perspective all over. Americans see it as the same thing. But is it an necessary or unnecessary push? We have a very distinct handful of morons who pass around Rattle Snakes in church as a showing of their faith in God. There is no law against this even though it would be in their best interest. What there is is an ever lasting mockery from the rest of us and a 911 service.

Well we would react differently over here.



There's no debate. There never really was. Just a political tool like any other used to damage the other side. But you are attempting to use one American political individual to equate to European population prescription.

People calling him "socialist" or "marxist" to damage his side, that's very weak debating. But using the argument that he would be "muslim" to put him in a bad light is worse than that, it's quite worrying. It shows that Islam is perceived quite negatively among Americans, especially republicans. I'm not saying that everything is perfect in Europe, we also have extreme right-wing people who use the "islamisation" argument, but they are not mainstream.


It's laws about religion.

We consider that it is against fundamentalism, not against Islam itself. As I have said, there is a Muslim woman with a veil that seats at the Parliament in Brussels, and we fund Imams just like we fund catholic priests.
 
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What if I was serious?

I believe you were serious. It's a tactic Europeans always employ to soothe activity in Europe. America could have a weapons mishap on the Mexican border and Europeans would use it to explain away an invasion into a neighboring country between European countries. I shall show you:

1) Centuries of expulsion, ethnic cleansing and genocide orchestrated by Europeans = a recent Arizona law to come down on "illegal" immigration.

2) Mandating religious clothing in Europe = American political griping over Obama's status.

3) Mandating religious clothing in Europe = Old American laws of segregation.


You did all three in quick fashion. Usually the American pioneering days that saw to the slaughter of Native Americans equals centuries of European slaughter campaigns. Germans are particularly fond of this American period. You took it a step further and attempted to use a bill in Arizona against "illegal" immigration (carefully not using the word illegal) to sooth European tradition of slaughter.

Unreal. Own your history and stop seeking American imperfections to lift your spirits repetitious behaviors.
 
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There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.

Well if they do not integrate, it's also a negative thing. It provokes segregation, it creates ghettos, it perpetuates inequalities (since they won't learn the language, won't find a job...) both between themselves and men, but also between immigrants and locals.




Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?

Just showing the hypocrisy of blaming someone for doing something while not mentioning that someone else does similar things
 
So we both agree that we can ban something even if it is religious

Depends on the activity. But you can't ban religion or an insignifant manner in which people celebrate it. Not all who wear the burqa is forced, but those that are have an option.

People calling him "socialist" or "marxist" to damage his side, that's very weak debating. But using the argument that he would be "muslim" to put him in a bad light is worse than that, it's quite worrying. It shows that Islam is perceived quite negatively among Americans, especially republicans. I'm not saying that everything is perfect in Europe, we also have extreme right-wing people who use the "islamisation" argument, but they are not mainstream.

Islam is perceived quite negatively in America no matter what side of the aisle people are from. There's not many Americans that would deny it. We know who our enemy is just like we knew that the Japanese and the Germans were our enemy no matter how any of them felt towards us.

But denying them their religious prescriptions (which many Muslims see it as) in America is not an option. There were still Germans and Japanese in America. There were still Russians in America. There are Muslims in America now. Americans have a talent for putting a focused face on our enemies while overlooking their positions in the U.S. Even the American Japanese stay in camps in California during WWII was a temporary fumbling.

But hey, Obama is called a "marxist" or a "socialist," where Bush was called a "Nazi." Our presidents come and go. And the BS politicial grandstanding to make the other look bad comes and goes with them.

We consider that it is against fundamentalism, not against Islam itself. As I have said, there is a Muslim woman with a veil that seats at the Parliament in Brussels, and we fund Imams just like we fund catholic priests.

She wouldn't have gotten elected in America. Our Muslims tend to be more westernized than Europe's Muslims. And Obama would not have ever walked into the White House with a turban. America has always celebrated a certain freedom from the rest of the world's problems. People don't seek to bring their region's prescriptions across the ocean. They leave those regions for a reason. Europe doesn't have this luxury, which is why I keep warning of the storm.

But, this is an internal issue. I don't care what Belgium does either way. Just making a point that history shows great distaste amongst people who feel oppressed. There are ramifications to these type things. Should women have to walk behind their husbands? Should they be relegated to the home? Should they be allowed to take multiple breaks throughout the day to pray towards Mecca where others still work? These are all issues to be addressed. They have already been topics of discussion. Eventually they will be sources of discontent.
 
Well if they do not integrate, it's also a negative thing. It provokes segregation, it creates ghettos, it perpetuates inequalities (since they won't learn the language, won't find a job...) both between themselves and men, but also between immigrants and locals.

Oh I'm not denying that Europe's situation isn't unique. On the contrary, I have stated just that. Europe's historical way of dealing with immigrants has not been healthy to the region (or the world) as a whole. Europe is once again in a situation where it faces tribal issues and the refusal to assimilate by a large number of banded together people. Why does it always come to this? Do they refuse to assimilate or are they even really allowed to assimilate? With this said, this is why I don't understand how easily your region pretends that an unhealthy Middle East is something to turn our backs on.

India is the model. For a time, the brightest left India and ventured into Europe for opportunity and prosperity. This left India a mess and eventually even the worst began to immigrate. Such things burden prosperous nations and destroy others. The fix was to begin programs like America did and boost India into the future. Today, India is on the rise and their immigration ceased to be a problem for others. An unhealthy Middle East will encourage immigration (good and bad) into the West. The bad will (and do) simply bring their bad habits with them. This will and does effect Europe the greatest.


Just showing the hypocrisy of blaming someone for doing something while not mentioning that someone else does similar things

There is no hypocrasy. I don't blame you for anything. But "similar" is hardly exactly. Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated. America's claim to genocidal fame was the Native American over the span of decades. Can Europe claim to have learned a lesson over its continued genocidal fame? America's claim to racial awkwardness was segregation laws. Can Europe claim that this is all that was employed over the continued practice of ethnic cleansing? America's claim to religious persecution was the very few Salem Witch Trials. Can Europes claim such a small event?

But these things are used every time Europeans feel the need to explain away behavior or to legitimize further ones. This Arizona Bill will be forever in the hearts of Europeans who need to excuse whatever laws come against Muslims hence forth.

Contrary to European belief, Americans learn from history and our own mistakes. We are not repeat offenders. Europe is and it's our mistakes that you use to encourage further mistakes and behaviors. Notice how this Arizona Bill hasn't been argued positively because of European behaviors? Arizona wants the Bill because it is tired of dealing with the burden of illegal immigration. Europeans want certain social laws against Muslims because of America's Arizona Bill makes it right? Why do you people always do this?
 
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There is no hypocrasy.

Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated.

(...)

We are not repeat offenders. Europe is

.........................
 
Oh I'm not denying that Europe's situation isn't unique. On the contrary, I have stated just that. Europe's historical way of dealing with immigrants has not been healthy to the region (or the world) as a whole. Europe is once again in a situation where it faces tribal issues and the refusal to assimilate by a large number of banded together people. Why does it always come to this? Do they refuse to assimilate or are they even really allowed to assimilate? With this said, this is why I don't understand how easily your region pretends that an unhealthy Middle East is something to turn our backs on.

India is the model. For a time, the brightest left India and ventured into Europe for opportunity and prosperity. This left India a mess and eventually even the worst began to immigrate. Such things burden prosperous nations and destroy others. The fix was to begin programs like America did and boost India into the future. Today, India is on the rise and their immigration ceased to be a problem for others. An unhealthy Middle East will encourage immigration (good and bad) into the West. The bad will (and do) simply bring their bad habits with them. This will and does effect Europe the greatest.




There is no hypocrasy. I don't blame you for anything. But "similar" is hardly exactly. Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated. America's claim to genocidal fame was the Native American over the span of decades. Can Europe claim to have learned a lesson over its continued genocidal fame? America's claim to racial awkwardness was segregation laws. Can Europe claim that this is all that was employed over the continued practice of ethnic cleansing? America's claim to religious persecution was the very few Salem Witch Trials. Can Europes claim such a small event?

But these things are used every time Europeans feel the need to explain away behavior or to legitimize further ones. This Arizona Bill will be forever in the hearts of Europeans who need to excuse whatever laws come against Muslims hence forth.

Contrary to European belief, Americans learn from history and our own mistakes. We are not repeat offenders. Europe is and it's our mistakes that you use to encourage further mistakes and behaviors. Notice how this Arizona Bill hasn't been argued positively because of European behaviors? Arizona wants the Bill because it is tired of dealing with the burden of illegal immigration. Europeans want certain social laws against Muslims because of America's Arizona Bill makes it right? Why do you people always do this?

Well, seriously, I understand your point. It's not because the USA does something (like the Arizona law) that it excuses what we do in Europe.

But that was not my point: I talked about the Arizona law because you seem to believe that the USA is much more friendly with its immigrants than Europe, which I believe is not true. That's also the reason why I talked about the rumours about Obama being Muslim. They do not excuse anything that happen in Europe, but they show that the USA is not always as friendly as you say with the other cultures.

Now, about the burqa ban, there is a big disagreement: 98% of our MeP agreed about it (that's extremely rare, we're usually a very divided country) while such a law would never have passed in the USA. That simply show that our value system is a bit different: in the USA your core value seems to be freedom, while in Belgium it seems to be equality.

This difference can be seen in many other topics, look at the labor market for example: in the USA there are very poor people and extremely rich people, while in Belgium we don't like a too big "gap" between rich and poors: our poors are less poor than yours thanks to our welfare system, and our rich are also less rich than yours because there are more taxes to fund the system.

But you should not believe that Europe is a monolith where people are and have always been somewhat oppressed. There are huge differences between countries and between centuries. During the religious wars for example, Belgium was re-conquered by the Spanish catholics and we were a very conservative land, while all the protestants fled to the Netherlands, which were extremely tolerant. And on the contrary, during the XXth century, Belgium was probably one of the most liberal (in the meaning of tolerant) country in the world, Karl Marx fled here and wrote his most famous books in Brussels, and so did many French writers. You can't talk about "Europe" as a whole, there is/was a big diversity.
 
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A great article that explains the EU point of view

In Your FaceFrench attempts to outlaw the burqa strike a blow for the rights of women.
By Christopher HitchensPosted Monday, May 10, 2010, at 11:16 AM ET

French woman wearing a burqa. Click image to expand.Woman wearing a niqab veilThe French legislators who seek to repudiate the wearing of the veil or the burqa—whether the garment covers "only" the face or the entire female body—are often described as seeking to impose a "ban." To the contrary, they are attempting to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress, a ban on the right of women to disagree with male and clerical authority, and a ban on the right of all citizens to look one another in the face. The proposed law is in the best traditions of the French republic, which declares all citizens equal before the law and—no less important—equal in the face of one another.
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On the door of my bank in Washington, D.C., is a printed notice politely requesting me to remove any form of facial concealment before I enter the premises. The notice doesn't bore me or weary me by explaining its reasoning: A person barging through those doors with any sort of mask would incur the right and proper presumption of guilt. This presumption should operate in the rest of society. I would indignantly refuse to have any dealings with a nurse or doctor or teacher who hid his or her face, let alone a tax inspector or customs official. Where would we be without sayings like "What have you got to hide?" or "You dare not show your face"?

Ah, but the particular and special demand to consider the veil and the burqa as an exemption applies only to women. And it also applies only to religious practice (and, unless we foolishly pretend otherwise, only to one religious practice). This at once tells you all you need to know: Society is being asked to abandon an immemorial tradition of equality and openness in order to gratify one faith, one faith that has a very questionable record in respect of females.

Let me ask a simple question to the pseudoliberals who take a soft line on the veil and the burqa. What about the Ku Klux Klan? Notorious for its hooded style and its reactionary history, this gang is and always was dedicated to upholding Protestant and Anglo-Saxon purity. I do not deny the right of the KKK to take this faith-based view, which is protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I might even go so far as to say that, at a rally protected by police, they could lawfully hide their nasty faces. But I am not going to have a hooded man or woman teach my children, or push their way into the bank ahead of me, or drive my taxi or bus, and there will never be a law that says I have to.

There are lesser objections to the covered face or the all-covering cloak. The latter has often been used by male criminals—not just religious terrorists but common thugs—to conceal themselves and make an escape. It has also been used to conceal horrible injuries inflicted on abused females. It is incompatible—because of its effect on peripheral vision—with activities such as driving a car or negotiating traffic. This removes it from the sphere of private decision-making and makes it a danger to others, as well as an offense to the ordinary democratic civility that depends on phrases like "Nice to see you."

It might be objected that in some Muslim societies women are not allowed to drive in the first place. But that would absolutely emphasize my second point. All the above criticisms would be valid if Muslim women were as passionately committed to wearing a burqa as a male Klansman is committed to donning a pointy-headed white shroud. But, in fact, we have no assurance that Muslim women put on the burqa or don the veil as a matter of their own choice. A huge amount of evidence goes the other way. Mothers, wives, and daughters have been threatened with acid in the face, or honor-killing, or vicious beating, if they do not adopt the humiliating outer clothing that is mandated by their menfolk. This is why, in many Muslim societies, such as Tunisia and Turkey, the shrouded look is illegal in government buildings, schools, and universities. Why should Europeans and Americans, seeking perhaps to accommodate Muslim immigrants, adopt the standard only of the most backward and primitive Muslim states? The burqa and the veil, surely, are the most aggressive sign of a refusal to integrate or accommodate. Even in Iran there is only a requirement for the covering of hair, and I defy anybody to find any authority in the Quran for the concealment of the face.

Not that it would matter in the least if the Quran said otherwise. Religion is the worst possible excuse for any exception to the common law. Mormons may not have polygamous marriage, female circumcision is a federal crime in this country, and in some states Christian Scientists face prosecution if they neglect their children by denying them medical care. Do we dare lecture the French for declaring simply that all citizens and residents, whatever their confessional allegiance, must be able to recognize one another in the clearest sense of that universal term?

So it's really quite simple. My right to see your face is the beginning of it, as is your right to see mine. Next but not least comes the right of women to show their faces, which easily trumps the right of their male relatives or their male imams to decide otherwise. The law must be decisively on the side of transparency. The French are striking a blow not just for liberty and equality and fraternity, but for sorority too.

French attempts to outlaw the burqa strike a blow for the rights of women. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine
 

I don't see what the problem is, if muslims want to live in the West, they must adhere to whatever the Western rules/laws are. If they don't like them, they can leave.

Given how badly christians and other minorities are treated in muslim nations, there really is not going to be much sympathy generated by those who are informed...personally I would deport most of europe's muslims, but I'll accept this for now.
 
I don't see what the problem is, if muslims want to live in the West, they must adhere to whatever the Western rules/laws are. If they don't like them, they can leave.

Given how badly christians and other minorities are treated in muslim nations, there really is not going to be much sympathy generated by those who are informed...personally I would deport most of europe's muslims, but I'll accept this for now.

I agree. Let them assimilate or boot them out of the country.
 
But that was not my point: I talked about the Arizona law because you seem to believe that the USA is much more friendly with its immigrants than Europe, which I believe is not true.

Good god of course it's true bro. The entire world knows this. Europe is famous for its various ethnic cleansings. America is known for accepting waves of immigrants. Now, both of these truths are in the general sense. Immigrants had a hard go at it from time to time in New York City and Mexicans have a hard time crossing the border legally. But the overwhelming wide division between the programs across America for immigrants and those across Europe should speak for itself. There are also the ghettos in Europe where immigrants huddle. The children of Algerians, born in Europe, are not seen as Europeans for an example. And if they are not seen as such, how do they think of themselves? This is going on all over Europe.

Now, this being said, America and Europe share something in common that sets them apart from the rest of the world. How many immigrant waves has China or Iran or some of these other type countries had to deal with over time? Racism and segregation is a Western thing because nobody wanted to immigrate anywhere else, which forced the west to have to deal with something others did not. For some time in the past, Europe dealt with it eventually with violence. America did not. But I believe this is an unsung tune into the reasons the West (in general) prospers above the rest. Freedom, equality, and racial integration are positive exclamation points in the West because others in Asia, the Middle East, and in Africa simply did not have to jump the hurdles. The Declaration of Independance, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, and Civil Rights Marches could only come out of the West, which is why we lead the social way for all.

I firmly believe that culture is fate. I also believe that good culture (and there is such a thing) equals prosperity.


Now, about the burqa ban, there is a big disagreement: 98% of our MeP agreed about it (that's extremely rare, we're usually a very divided country) while such a law would never have passed in the USA. That simply show that our value system is a bit different: in the USA your core value seems to be freedom, while in Belgium it seems to be equality.

I'd agree to this. I also see a difference between European "freedom" and American "liberty" (Our guns laws and such have nmore to do with liberty than freedom). But there's no way that anybody in a Burqa would be elected to do anything in Washington anyway.


But you should not believe that Europe is a monolith where people are and have always been somewhat oppressed.

I don't believe anybody in Europe is oppressed. But I do believe that too many believe that they are oppressed. When people believe that they have been cast aside or viewed as outsiders, they tend to see all things as an attack on them. This is especially true for the second generation immigrants. The first generation know first hand what they left behind when they immigrated. The second generation find themselves as jobless as "true" Europeans but without the status of being called a European. They also have the natural desire to defend their parents and the culture they were groomed under. People in misery tend to gravitate together for strength.

I firmly believe that Europe is full of immigrant time bombs. And the longer the Middle East remains unhealthy the more explosive it will be in Europe. Which, means that America will have to be involved. I'm all about lightening (slightly possible of preventing) what I know is inevitably coming.
 
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