• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

rogerredy said:
Keep reaching, you might get lucky and land something... :2wave:
Click to expand...

Translation: "Crap. I didn't realize that. Avoid! Avoid!"



Oh, you say so, so that's it... :roll:
Click to expand...

Me and Jefferson and Madison. Who you got on your side?



Since you seem to want to argue without reason, I'll spell it out for you - that one of the founding fathers made a statement, does not make it above god. Jefferson et al were fallible, and that he proffered something you agree with does not make it anymore legitimate than if a homeless person says it today.
Click to expand...

They are definitely better sources than the mythical "constitutional scholars" you've alluded to.


I need to bring in weather experts to prove clouds exist? The conventional wisdom is that only the federal government - for reasons obvious to most rational, honest individuals - has the authority to create immigration law.
Click to expand...

That's teh liberal mindset, yes.

If Texas decides to open its borders to the world, and NM wants to close its borders, how would the country function?
Click to expand...

The way it was intended to. As dual federalist nation where the states were sovereign bodies equal to or greater than the Federal government.

I am not going to argue with you further on this point, soon you will argue that each state can form its own army, its own navy, etc., you are beginning to just waste my time... :doh
Click to expand...

Not only will I argue that they can, I'll actually argue that these things currently exist as State Defense Forces.

Mission & Purpose - Texas State Guard

"The Texas State Guard (TXSG) mission as a branch of the Texas Military Forces is to provide mission-ready military forces to assist State and local authorities in times of state emergencies, with homeland security and community service through Defense Support to Civil Authorities (DSCA). To augment the other two branches of the Texas Military Forces, the Texas Army National Guard and Texas Air National Guard as force multipliers. Missions are directed by the Commander in Chief of the Texas Military Forces the Governor of Texas and commanded by the Texas Adjutant General.

The TXSG has four major Sub-Commands: Army, Air, Maritime and Medical."

You want to call rational considerations "liberal", fine, your "arguments are absurd, and you cannot even defend them reasonably - just try to insult.
Click to expand...

"Liberal" is not an insult. It's a description.

Future replies need to bring substance, or they'll be ignored.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
Tucker Case said:
The TXSG has four major Sub-Commands: Army, Air, Maritime and Medical."[/I]
Click to expand...

That all operate under the command of the federal government....zzzzz....I can see why no one else responds to your posts. In your mind no doubt its because you delude yourself into thinking you actually have a clue...no further responses to be made in this thread.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I doubt they're hopping a convoy to Hawaii :D

But, yes, it does suck that only one state is seriously fighting this on their own - all other states need to hop on board. They will, though - they will once the problem actually migrates and brings the drama with them.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere in your state, 5 illegals were picked up (by ICE) week before last. 2 Mexicans/3 Chinese.
 
I'm still waiting for a link where someone can show me how all these unemployed documented Americans are suddenly rushing to Home Depot for those day laborer jobs or running to fill out applications to work as orange pickers....you know...all those jobs that brown-skinned people were stealing from otherwise hard working Americans.
 
If they are leaving, then they aren't really immigrants anymore. :)
 
disneydude said:
I'm still waiting for a link where someone can show me how all these unemployed documented Americans are suddenly rushing to Home Depot for those day laborer jobs or running to fill out applications to work as orange pickers....you know...all those jobs that brown-skinned people were stealing from otherwise hard working Americans.
Click to expand...

Im still waiting for your response to this:

"I love watching people like you flip flop around like a fish on dry land trying to find some sort of a position when it comes to immigration...a position that somehow doesnt make you look completely stupid. "Of course we should have laws...we just shouldnt enforce the laws. I mean we should...but not really...but...I mean the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...yeah...its THEIR responsibility...and when the INS does it...no...wait...we dont want the INS to enforce it...so...no laws...yeah...no immigration laws...no...wait...thats stupid...YES immigration laws...just no ENFORCABLE immigration laws...which I get sounds like really NO laws...because thats what it is...but not...which isnt what I mean it to sound like...but...errrr...ummm...you guys are all a bunch of RACISTS!!!!"

OK...really? Im not waiting. Ive watched in several threads you getting your ass handed to you and you offering the limpest of responses or diversions...so...nah...I dont think anything will change.

Geez...didnt someone once say you were a lia...I mean...lawyer??? :rofl
 
Redbeard said:
I read somewhere in your state, 5 illegals were picked up (by ICE) week before last. 2 Mexicans/3 Chinese.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, happens all the time.

My parent's were in a wreck years back - their van was totaled, the driver of the other vehicle was here illegally (as were all his passengers), thus, no license, no insurance, no ID - my parent's were stiffed with the cost of everything. They had no legal recourse to take and had to pay on that van for the next 2 years. It put them in an incredible financial crunch.

It's fortunate that they weren't injured.

Thus began my stance against illegals being given harbor. I don't care *if* they work and are decent people who wouldn't hurt a fly. If they're here illegally then you can't even HOLD them accountable for their faults like anyone would expect to do for you or me if we caused a problem or broke a law.

Yet - so many people don't *see* it that way for some reason.
 
VanceMack said:
Im still waiting for your response to this:

"I love watching people like you flip flop around like a fish on dry land trying to find some sort of a position when it comes to immigration...a position that somehow doesnt make you look completely stupid. "Of course we should have laws...we just shouldnt enforce the laws. I mean we should...but not really...but...I mean the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...yeah...its THEIR responsibility...and when the INS does it...no...wait...we dont want the INS to enforce it...so...no laws...yeah...no immigration laws...no...wait...thats stupid...YES immigration laws...just no ENFORCABLE immigration laws...which I get sounds like really NO laws...because thats what it is...but not...which isnt what I mean it to sound like...but...errrr...ummm...you guys are all a bunch of RACISTS!!!!"

OK...really? Im not waiting. Ive watched in several threads you getting your ass handed to you and you offering the limpest of responses or diversions...so...nah...I dont think anything will change.

Geez...didnt someone once say you were a lia...I mean...lawyer??? :rofl
Click to expand...

First of....that's the first time I've seen that quote. I'm assuming that sometime/somewhere you posted that?

Regardless, I've indicated numerous times my position on immigration reform and will do it yet again.

Immigration reform is a complicated process that will not be solved by feel-good laws such as AZ's.

First...you have to start by going after the companies (something that your ilk usually doesn't want to do). If the companies weren't looking to exploit the worker to line the already deep pockets of their CEO's, the incentives would dry up). Get companies to pay US Workers living wage. That's the first step.

Second - You have to come up with a realistic Amnesty program. It is completely unrealistic to believe that you can deport (or that you SHOULD for that matter) millions of people who have lived in this country for the vast majority of their lives.

Third - our government needs to work with foreign governments to reform the legal process by which people apply for citizenship. The corruption that exists today ensures that the few spots go to those who can afford a kickback. There are no spots available for the average person.

Now....you wanna talk about all those unemployed Americans that don't seem to be flocking to those jobs that brown-skinned people were "stealing" from them? Somehow I doubt I'll hear from you on that.:doh
 
rogerredy said:
That all operate under the command of the federal government.
Click to expand...

No they don't. State defense forces are not under federal authority. National guards are, but State defense forces are not.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Forces[/ame]

"State Defense Forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities (all National Guard units can be federalized under the Militia Act of 1903 with the creation of the National Guard of the United States). "


Granted, it's wiki, but you can look up the proper laws to confirm.

In your mind no doubt its because you delude yourself into thinking you actually have a clue...no further responses to be made in this thread.
Click to expand...

It's not delusion, it's a product of research. What is delusional is trying to rebut my points without actually performing any research.
 
Last edited:
MyOwnDrum said:
I like the way CBS news calls them 'immigrants', not 'illegal immigrants'. Then they proceed to share the story of a family with 10, yes 10, children (all American citizens, naturally). They tug at our heart strings. Who could not sympathize with this honorable family?

They are currently unemployed.Sooooo, how are they supporting these 10 children that they so happily had? How much U.S. taxpayer money has gone to assist them in raising them? How many American middle class citizens deferred childbearing in order to pay the taxes to support this illegal immigrant family, that lives hand to mouth, never worrying about having another child?

Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law - CBS Evening News - CBS News
Click to expand...
well if you want to talk about legality then why dont you ask a native american if they ever gave YOU permission to be here?
 
SKYPE said:
well if you want to talk about legality then why dont you ask a native american if they ever gave YOU permission to be here?
Click to expand...

Oh, here it comes!

The good old "they were here FIRST" bit.

Every single country in the entire WORLD has the "original inhabitants" and the "we came and took it over" inhabitants. . . that is just a part of life and history and how things change.

Even now things are still done that way - territories in the Middle East keep changing hands (for one example).
In 200 years from now can an original inhabitant from one country that *use* to be part of another country really demand a different level of consideration because when their ancestors lived there that area was ruled by someone else?

Even Mexico and other countries in South America have strict rules and regulations that they enforce when it comes to illegal-citizenry and squatters.

That whole argument is aged like a skunky beer.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
In 200 years from now can an original inhabitant from one country that *use* to be part of another country really demand a different level of consideration because when their ancestors lived there that area was ruled by someone else?
Click to expand...

Hmmm, apply this to Israel. ;)
 
disneydude said:
I'm still waiting for a link where someone can show me how all these unemployed documented Americans are suddenly rushing to Home Depot for those day laborer jobs or running to fill out applications to work as orange pickers....you know...all those jobs that brown-skinned people were stealing from otherwise hard working Americans.
Click to expand...

I'd comment on the horrendous breach in logic and reason but Right's already did a great job of it in a similar thread

RightinNYC said:
This is just terrible, terrible logic and belies a total lack of understanding of economics. Are you really arguing that the only way this law will have any impact is if US citizens start massing outside home depot, looking to build decks for $50/day? It's a bit more complex than that.
Click to expand...
 
disneydude said:
Second - You have to come up with a realistic Amnesty program. It is completely unrealistic to believe that you can deport (or that you SHOULD for that matter) millions of people who have lived in this country for the vast majority of their lives.
Click to expand...

Based on...what?

Because Disney dude said so?

Not on history, as we had a program that did just that years ago.

Not on financial means, at least not if the current and past administration is anything to go buy. Bush ran up record deficits and now Obama is making him look like a fool kid playing with Monopoly Money with the deficits he's running. So don't tell me its a financial issue when he's wasting trillions of dollars "stimulating" people to fill in pot holes.

Not on man power, we hired tens of thousands of census workers in the span of a year. I'm sure if need be we could fill in non-law enforcement positions needed in such an endevour without too much issue, and in regard to the law enforcement positions...I don't know...have law enforcement do their job.

Am I saying its 100% possible? Absolutely not. But its absolutely ridiculous to suggest its not realistic or its somehow not possible based on nothing, absolutely positively NOTHING of substance other than opinion supported by nothing else but other opinion.
 
Zyphlin said:
I'd comment on the horrendous breach in logic and reason but Right's already did a great job of it in a similar thread
Click to expand...

Where is the breach?

All of you people are complaining that the brown-skinned people are taking away jobs that Americans otherwise would take.

If that is true....why haven't we seen all these unemployed workers rushing to take these jobs?
 
disneydude said:
Where is the breach?

All of you people are complaining that the brown-skinned people are taking away jobs that Americans otherwise would take.

If that is true....why haven't we seen all these unemployed workers rushing to take these jobs?
Click to expand...

Where to begin...

One, it assumes that the only jobs that are affected by this are the ones where people were lining up in front of the home depot.

Two, it assumes that if the jobs aren't filled in exactly the same fashion they were by illegals that they're not being filled

Three, it assumes that somehow in the matter of a month we're going to be seeing drastic results, both in the amount of people that leave and the amount of people that enter back into the work force.

Four, it assumes that job increase, and specifically seemingly for your illogical assumption only jobs that people got from out front of the home depot, was the only benefit to the bill people spoke about in regards to the financial benefits of it.

But truly, thanks for your ignorant and bigoted stereotyping of anyone that supports this law as being people "Complaining about the brown-skinned people". How wonderfully intolerant and stereotyping of you Disney.

What next? After ranting about people hating "The brown people" will you insinuate that all "white people" that are out of jobs are lazy sacks that sit on their couch in their underwear eating potato chips and watching TV? Aren't you one that usually rants and raves at some Republicans on here that suggest many of the poor and out of work are that way because they're not putting the effort to actually get off their ass and doing it?
 
Last edited:
independent_thinker2002 said:
Hmmm, apply this to Israel. ;)
Click to expand...

Not even close, for 3 reasons:

1) jews were expelled, not left voluntarily, out of europe/arab nations

2) jews, unlike mexicans or brazilians, do not have a home to go back to if they moved somewhere for economic reasons

3) historically, jews have been ethnically cleansed or killed by their host countries. mexicans or guatemalans cannot make this claim.
 
disneydude said:
Where is the breach?

All of you people are complaining that the brown-skinned people are taking away jobs that Americans otherwise would take.

If that is true....why haven't we seen all these unemployed workers rushing to take these jobs?
Click to expand...

Simple, its the basic rules of economics: the massive influx of illegals has driven the salaries of these positions down to where it is not economically viable for what is known as the working poor to be able to perform these jobs, and still eke out a living for their families.

At one time, the salaries were relatively higher to the rest of full-time work, so that one could accept working at a retailer like Home Depot FT and survive - but as in the case of construction, etc., the compensation of many fields have been driven so low as to make them completely unacceptable.

To an illegal, however, whose family still resides in Latin America with a far lower cost of living, the funds remitted out of the US are substantial.
 
rogerredy said:
Not even close, for 3 reasons:

1) jews were expelled, not left voluntarily, out of europe/arab nations

2) jews, unlike mexicans or brazilians, do not have a home to go back to if they moved somewhere for economic reasons

3) historically, jews have been ethnically cleansed or killed by their host countries. mexicans or guatemalans cannot make this claim.
Click to expand...

1) Native Americans were extinguished.

2) Brazilians? :rofl

3) Native Americans can make this claim.
 
rogerredy said:
Simple, its the basic rules of economics: the massive influx of illegals has driven the salaries of these positions down to where it is not economically viable for what is known as the working poor to be able to perform these jobs, and still eke out a living for their families.

At one time, the salaries were relatively higher to the rest of full-time work, so that one could accept working at a retailer like Home Depot FT and survive - but as in the case of construction, etc., the compensation of many fields have been driven so low as to make them completely unacceptable.

To an illegal, however, whose family still resides in Latin America with a far lower cost of living, the funds remitted out of the US are substantial.
Click to expand...

You guys have no idea what you are talking about.

Try and hire a few of these guys doing day labor.

They will not work for under $15.00 per hour.

Please pay me $15.00 per hour with no taxes to pay.

I will take it.
 
Oh I don't mindresponding. Pardon the typng. Tough going from an iPhone. Ok first. YOUR idea is to go after employers for hiring those people ilegally. Yep. That will work. Truly. But then once they do and once those day labor opportunities dry up they will HAVE to be hired legally. Wages will have to be fair. Taxes will have to be paid. And a new norm wil be established. Of course people aren't rushing to fill those day labor jobs today. Lots of reasons for that. One of those reasons is social structure we have created encourages eople to NOT work. That has to change. Until I does you have to balance th same phenomenon we see in Michigan. Why take a temp job when you get the same or more for NOT working.

Look you will never hear from me those here illegally are lazy or don't want to work. You probably HAVE heard me say if I could Id keep all 20-30 million illegals and send Mexico 20-30 milion of he crippled and dependent pets the leftists have created.

The illegal employee situation HAS to change. And it's not going to changovernight. Even in Arizona. And even in the even of passage of a law that hasn't even goneinto effect yet.
 
SKYPE said:
well if you want o talk about legality then why dont you ask a native american if they ever gave YOU permission to be here?
Click to expand...

well there ARE a few salient points. One the natives didn't have a country or rules and immigration laws. Two those natives practced conquest as well often warring with other tribes and when victorious enslaving their conquered foes. And Third...name a country that HASNT been formed through conquest, INCLUDING Mexico
 
Considering that most American families immigrated from someplace else in their history, they really should stop b*tching about immigrants. And, as for taking tax money, everybody in the US is. ie they are enjoying the roads and other public services. All that money being spend, and the indians have not yet been adequately compensated for what those immigrants did to their way of life. Nothing would make up for destroying their way of life, but a significant financial gesture would be a gesture at lease.
 
Mell said:
Considering that most American families immigrated from someplace else in their history, they really should stop b*tching about immigrants. And, as for taking tax money, everybody in the US is. ie they are enjoying the roads and other public services. All that money being spend, and the indians have not yet been adequately compensated for what those immigrants did to their way of life. Nothing would make up for destroying their way of life, but a significant financial gesture would be a gesture at lease.
Click to expand...

Ugh, is this a stupid post, complete failure... :roll:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom