So in one breath you basically say estimates are useless, and then in the very next you use an estimate (and the far upper limits of the estimates as well.. presented as a fact no less).
Why don't we ask all bank robbers we can find - and those who admit to bank robbing - how much money they've made stealing. Its as scientific as asking a trespasser in the US about coming out of the shadows and declaring their existence...estimates of these people are built on sand.
The only FACTS are those symptomatic in nature, like how many hospitals have gone bankrupt - like St Vincent's here in NYC - b/c there are so many illegals using their emergency room rather than a doctor's office. THAT is a FACT, not an estimate, guess, dream, or hope.
Generally, from everything I've seen on the matter, the consensus view seems to be that there are around 11-12 million illegals in the country.
Consensus of ESTIMATES, which are again, meaningless.
The 50% estimates I've seen are based on these estimates and the amount of "extra" money found in medicare and SS money.
See bolded - and what "extra" money? Both medicare and SS are broke :roll:
They are often used in arguments against illegal aliens.
ONE illegal alien is too much, I do not need a gross estimate of their total numbers. And I see hospitals closing all over the country due to illegals...
The facts are present in the studies, which are found at the links to which I refer.
"Studies"? Hilarious..."oh bank robber, bank robber, come out and tell us how much money you've made today...."
What you keep repeating without sourcing is the rhetoric.
Except in like 5 responses to me, you have yet to address ANY points I've made...
True, I should have said "refund". My apologies.
Most people do not get a substantial refund, it does not matter.
Yes, but most W2 employees making the same amount as the average illegal receives a refund of nearly all income tax paid.
This is an absurd statement unsupported by facts, since there is no way to compare what a W2 on the books is paid vs. an illegal off the books...
The fact that they are low income is actually a huge part of my argument. Almost all of the money paid by the LEGAL W2 employees at comparable incomes gets refunded at the end of the year.
Where do you get this fantasy? The NYS/Federal tax income credit is not sufficient to refund the taxes paid for those earning $60,000 per year, the median US household.
Almost none of the income taxes that do get paid by illegals gets refunded.
You keep repeating the same contradiction; half of all illegals (according to you) are off the books, so therefore, they would pay zero income taxes. However, they DO use alot of services...
Thus, when taken as a whole, it's likely that illegals pay more income tax than comparable legal citizens (they do pay less into SS and Medicare, but they take almost none of these as well)
#1-this is based upon yr earlier statement, that most illegals who should get a refund don't - which is nonsense and #2- as I've stated, the DO use services, such as hospitals, schools, etc, in spades...the illegal with 9 kids is certainly using alot of services.
Most people with the same level of income PAY ZERO income tax as well. Teh fact that ANY illegals are paying income tax, and not getting it refunded, means that as a whole, more income tax is paid by illegals than is paid by comparable legals.
There is no factual basis to this repeated statement, and those earning the avg. household inc. are not going to get a refund.
There is income tax being paid on these wages. The money that is sent abroad doesn't differentiate between what was sent by legals and what was sent by illegals, nor does it differentiate between those who use fake SS numbers and those who don't.
How is income tax being paid by those off the books? And the second part makes no sense: "it doesn't differentiate..." Huh?
You'd be surprised at the amount of people who support an unconstitutional increase of federal authority regarding state residency laws and support the judicial activism that granted federal authority to the issue of residency in the first place, then.
One who supports the enforcement of law, whether it is at the federal or state level, is generally a conservative. That the feds have so utterly failed to enforce the law has compelled local lawmakers to pick up the slack.
Judicial activism does not include writing law that allows local law enforcement to act upon federal laws...
If you are as far from liberal as one can be, then you clearly must agree with me that legal residency was not a federal power enumerated by the constitution.
Nope, I don't. A conservative on this issue, as all others, supports a safe, stable and defended US homeland. That means that trespassers are to be expelled/deported/executed on a case by case basis.
I've been using sources provided by my opponents in this debate to in my arguments. One cannot say that I'm using biased sources.
Estimates of uncountable numbers is not a sign of "bias", the data by definition cannot be accurately quantified, period, except by anecdotal events, like hospital closings, and counting the proportion of undocumented children in a public school system.
Fact: Illegals cost less federal money on average than the average citizen does. This was shown in the study I keep directing you to, which is actually arguing against illegal immigrants (i.e. has a polar opposite view on illegals than I do).
This is not a fact obviously, since hospitals are closing due to unsustainable numbers of illegals using their facilities, prisons are loaded with illegals, and public school systems are filled with illegal children - and using your information for a moment - since half of all illegals do not pay ANY income taxes, therefore, it is obvious they are a huge cost to the country.
If again, we use your numbers, 6 million people are off the books and pay no taxes, all social/civic services they use; a library, street cleaning, public roads and infrastructure, etc., are paid for by someone else. How someone can rationally claim they are not a massive expense is unfathomable.
As for your point on deporting what you claim as unproductive citizens, now that would take an amount of "judicial activism" counted by the ton...an idea fit for a different thread.
