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US bans offshore drilling as Deepwater Horizon slick hits land

megaprogman said:
US bans offshore drilling as Deepwater Horizon slick hits land - Times Online

I strongly support off-shore drilling, but I think this is a good idea. If we are going to do it, we should do it as safely as possible.
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Since our limited fate depends on oil for dozens of different products, including gas, we really have no choice, but we should make preparations for the next pipe break.

Red Adaire knew how to cap pipe breaks by threading a new valve on the stump, so why can't we do the same thing under water?

ricksfolly
 
Not so sure how much know-how Red or even Boots and Coots has with capping a well 5000 feet below the surface of the ocean. Can't hardly blow it up. Hellcats are useless.
 
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FilmFestGuy said:
Oh, because the Bush administration didn't cause any damage to our nation at all.
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No no, I said "Conservative". We haven't had a Conservative in office since Reagan. Bush belongs to you.

FilmFestGuy said:
I'll give you Obama sucking if you'll give me that what he was trying to do was clean up Bush's mess and may not have been up to the job.
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A liberal democrat cleaning up after a liberal republican is still a liberal compounding a liberal's mess.

FilmFestGuy said:
Sorry, but I still don't trust that the Republicans who caused this mess have done anything to change their ways.
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Neither do I, which is why I didn't say "Republican". I said "Conservative", and I would support a Conservative Democrat over Obama in the next election.

It's only going to get worse again until we as an electorate show that we can surprise politicians.

FilmFestGuy said:
I'm more than glad to give Republicans control of Congress in 2010. But the way I'd like to see it done is by EVERY district flipping. If the everyday Republicans and Democrats could hold their noses and completely flip their votes, every politician would know that we're no longer behold to party.
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It won't matter if Republicans get Congress if they're all liberals.


FilmFestGuy said:
This would force them to stop spouting the same stupidity and actually govern. I know it's hard for you to admit (and that, too, is a major part of why our nation's politics sucks so much), but good ideas come from both sides of the aisle; and the two parties should be there to temper each other's worst instincts. Instead, all we get are each of the parties' worst instincts.

Intractability is killing us. Ohh, Utahans are so proud of themselves for kicking Bennett out. Surprise. BFD. They're just sending someone new in who isn't going to be able to do damn thing. They didn't change anything. Same party; same people. They're patting themselves on the back; but they didn't do a damn thing. Hoo-freakin'-ray.

Even if Republicans take over (and it was only four years ago that they controlled everything); there's simply going to be half the nation pissed off at them and it will simply get overturned again in a few years.

Until we actually prove to them that we can surprise them, they're not going to change.

Additionally, the same people who think government is killing them (and if they do turn over the House and the Senate, they're actually proving that government is "tyrannical" to be utterly untrue) are thrilled to let giant corporations kill them. Thus, the hatred for government not doing much about the spill; but people being totally okay with BP.

It's moronic to blame the government for this and still shop at BP. But people here are doing it.
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Speaking just for myself, the reason I'm fairly relaxed over theis spill is 2 fold:

  1. Exxon Valdez was caused by human error. It could have been prevented but someone ****ed up, big. The Deepwater Horizon was not a human error, it was one unusually hugmungis (technical term) methane bubble modern technology couldn't have foreseen. If it weren't for the sheer size of the bubble this would have been just another blow-out, the rig would not have blown up and sank, they would have capped it off and life would go on without you or I being any wiser.

  2. Once the Exxon Valdez's hull was cracked open, there was no stopping it's contents from spilling. There was no re-closing the hull, no opening the hull in another location and pumping in a sealant, no dome to cover the breach and sifin away 85% of the oil. This well can still be brought under control with minimal damage to the local ecology.
 
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Captain America said:
Not so sure how much know-how Red or even Boots and Coots has with capping a well 5000 feet below the surface of the ocean. Can't hardly blow it up. Hellcats are useless.
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It's this easy:

si13_med.jpg


These "special ingredients" are just what you may need in some "special situations". Manufactured under contract by DSG Laboratories to fulfill the occasional unusual operational requirement of CIA and other federal agents, these products are now available for non-governmental sale. Use only with utmost discretion.

When The Blob meets up with a petroleum-based liquid (like gasoline or oil), it transforms into a sticky gel-like material, capable of clogging small diameter tubes and filters. Warning: keep this stuff away from your gas tank, carburetor, and engine oil unless you plan on walking.
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Special Ingredient - SHOMER-TEC
 
Captain America said:
Not to defend these yahoo's running the show now but your alternative solution to put the foxes back into the henhouse is worthy of some debate to say the least.

We have to realize that the guys calling the shots in the oil industry are entrenched and are NOT from the same cut, as the guys at these Obama Washington galas, and those oil guys are the guys who screwed this up.

Just sayin'. To be fair and all. :roll:
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I was going to have a partisan fight, and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for your meddling, Capt'n A.

Damn you capt'n!! You saved the day again!! DAAAMMMN YYYOOOOOUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuu.........!!!!
 
methane bubble modern technology couldn't have foreseen
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That could be challenged. Today's technology can give us pictures as clear as an ultrasound as far formations go and our Petreoleum Engineers are very familiar with formation dangers.

If it was a freak accident, I suppose anything could happen. But to say they didn't have a clue as to what they were drilling into is far fetched.

But, as they say, **** happens.

As soon as their mud return alarm went off those BOP's shoulda been closed. But wait! The BOP's are 5000 foot underwater?

I can just hear the Driller now. "Hey Worm!" I can't close the BOP's. Put on the ride belt and I'll lower you down on the air-horse about 5k feet underwater and you crank that BOP shut! Hurry every chance you get."


And those company men should have known exactly what they were drilling into. There is no excuse except to say it was just a tragic series of ****-up's coupled with bad luck, much like that that befell the Titanic, Lusitania or the Zepplin Hindenberg. Only a lot mo' dirty.
 
Jerry said:
I don't think we should tolerate what we don't have to, but we went and put a liberal in office, so now we're going to have to ride out some damaging policies until we can get a Conservative administration in there to clean this crap up.
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Many conservatives are against offshore drilling, too. It's not really a liberal-conservative issue. The conservatives controlled both congress and the Whitehouse for 6 years. During that time they supported the moratorium on offshore drilling and many of the oil policies were created by them..
There will always be spills but the more rigs out there the greater the risk. You do know they would be drilling on the same fields, they would just be depleting it faster.
 
Jerry said:
No no, I said "Conservative". We haven't had a Conservative in office since Reagan. Bush belongs to you.
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Cop out. I don't accept Bush; so he does not belong to me. You can't play politics that way. Obama doesn't actually belong to me, either, even though I voted for him. Only "conservatives" believe that either of them are "liberal". Neither of them are. They're both Corporatists (different from Capitalists). Reagan was also not truly a Conservative in my view of what Conservatism actually is; but was also a Corporatist. Indeed, Reagan did many things that weren't conservative. Let's not forget that a lot of things Obama has been criticized for: nuclear negotiations with Russia (Reagan did it, too); negotiations with Iran (Reagan did it, too); taxes (they were significantly higher in most brackets under Reagan than they are now). Not to mention that Reagan's average approval rating in his second year in office as a meager 42% (Obama's is currently at 49% and he's never been below 45%).

Jerry said:
Speaking just for myself, the reason I'm fairly relaxed over theis spill is 2 fold:

  1. Exxon Valdez was caused by human error. It could have been prevented but someone ****ed up, big. The Deepwater Horizon was not a human error, it was one unusually hugmungis (technical term) methane bubble modern technology couldn't have foreseen. If it weren't for the sheer size of the bubble this would have been just another blow-out, the rig would not have blown up and sank, they would have capped it off and life would go on without you or I being any wiser.

  2. Once the Exxon Valdez's hull was cracked open, there was no stopping it's contents from spilling. There was no re-closing the hull, no opening the hull in another location and pumping in a sealant, no dome to cover the breach and sifin away 85% of the oil. This well can still be brought under control with minimal damage to the local ecology.
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Scientists Gain New Insights Into 'Frozen' Methane Beneath Ocean Floor - Here's an article from 2005 showing that there was awareness of methane under the ocean surface.

I like your optimism; but I don't share it.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
Cop out.
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If that's what you feel then you didn't understand my point of view to begin with. It might surprise you to learn that I didn't vote for Bush and opposed many of his policies, such as the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.



FilmFestGuy said:
Scientists Gain New Insights Into 'Frozen' Methane Beneath Ocean Floor - Here's an article from 2005 showing that there was awareness of methane under the ocean surface.

I like your optimism; but I don't share it.
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What I claimed was that they had no way of knowing if/how much was present at this particular location.

It's one thing for you to say "there will be X number of car accidents this year", but it's quite another to put your hand on a spicific car and say "this car will be T-boned, sustaining a delta-v of 65mph, by a drunken motorist running a red light in the intersection of Omaha and 3rd street at 1:14am, 12thMAY2010."
 
Jerry said:
If that's what you feel then you didn't understand my point of view to begin with. It might surprise you to learn that I didn't vote for Bush and opposed many of his policies, such as the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.
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I'm not missing your point; I'm countering that just because he wasn't your doesn't make him mine. You can't simply sluff off a bad Republican who ran claiming to be a conservative and simply call him "one of mine". He was a screw-up; but he was not a liberal. You saying so says more about your view of liberals than what I believe a liberal should be and do. I agreed with Bush, I believe, twice in eight years. So he's not "one of mine". And it's unfair of you to pretend so and it only proves that you stereotype anyone who differs from your way of thinking as all being the same.

Jerry said:
What I claimed was that they had no way of knowing if/how much was present at this particular location.

It's one thing for you to say "there will be X number of car accidents this year", but it's quite another to put your hand on a spicific car and say "this car will be T-boned, sustaining a delta-v of 65mph, by a drunken motorist running a red light in the intersection of Omaha and 3rd street at 1:14am, 12thMAY2010."
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Clearly they should have known there was risk there. I more equate this to people being shocked when race-car drivers die. When you take a known risk, then things are going to happen.

They HAD to have been aware of methane under the surface if they'd done their research. And thus, this could have been prevented.

This is another case of a company putting profit before safety and ecology. And there's ample proof that both parties are in bed with Big Oil and are more than glad to allow them to destroy our environment.

Barack Obama, Dick Cheney and the Deepwater Horizon oil spill - E.D. Kain - American Times - True/Slant
 
FilmFestGuy said:
I'm not missing your point; I'm countering that just because he wasn't your doesn't make him mine.
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Just because I'm against an Obama policy doesn't mean I supported a Bush policy. If you don't being mislabeled in kind, don't bring up Bush. The general forum membership has grown tired of you people bringing up Bush whenever Obama is criticized. It's old.

FilmFestGuy said:
Clearly they should have known there was risk there. I more equate this to people being shocked when race-car drivers die. When you take a known risk, then things are going to happen.
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The article you linked to, while informative, did not describe a technology capable of locating methane hydrates at specific locations, so it's irrational to demand that such a yet-to-be-invented technology be present on the Deepwater Horizon. Neither could the research locate methane hydrates before drilling; research in fact relied on drilling to get hydrate samples. Also, non of the research cited in your article was performed in the Gulf.

FilmFestGuy said:
They HAD to have been aware of methane under the surface if they'd done their research. And thus, this could have been prevented.
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There was no data to tell them where specific deposits were even in the arias where they took core samples; non of which being in the Gulf. There was no technology invented let alone installed on the Deepwater Horizon to detect such a deposit.

This is another case of a company putting profit before safety and ecology. And there's ample proof that both parties are in bed with Big Oil and are more than glad to allow them to destroy our environment.

Barack Obama, Dick Cheney and the Deepwater Horizon oil spill - E.D. Kain - American Times - True/Slant
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Right, because if the government doesn't install it, it therefore doesn't exist :roll:

If you bother to read the article you linked to you will note that it is a switch that was to be installed. Not the actual fail-safe itself, but a switch activating the fail-safe.

Deepwater Horizon did in fact have a BOP fail-safe installed on the well. There's no reason to assume that the cause of the BOP's failure is the absence of a government switch.
 
Captain America said:
Not so sure how much know-how Red or even Boots and Coots has with capping a well 5000 feet below the surface of the ocean. Can't hardly blow it up. Hellcats are useless.
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Don't have to blow it up, just thread the broken pipe and screw on a standard shut-off valve. Divers have worked that deep before, so why not now?

I have difficulty visualizing what really happened down there, how they could use that oversize out house to seal off the oil, and how deep they have to go down to find an undamaged pipe section.

ricksfolly
 
ricksfolly said:
Don't have to blow it up, just thread the broken pipe and screw on a standard shut-off valve. Divers have worked that deep before, so why not now?

I have difficulty visualizing what really happened down there, how they could use that oversize out house to seal off the oil, and how deep they have to go down to find an undamaged pipe section.

ricksfolly
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You have to get the threading tool over the pipe....how much force is that oil coming out with, and how hot is it?

I imagine that if you stuck a pipe out the side of Hover damn, super heated the water and opened the valve, that if the sheer force alone didn't **** up your plans to have a family, the burns you'd sustain would.
 
Jerry said:
You have to get the threading tool over the pipe....how much force is that oil coming out with, and how hot is it?

I imagine that if you stuck a pipe out the side of Hover damn, super heated the water and opened the valve, that if the sheer force alone didn't **** up your plans to have a family, the burns you'd sustain would.
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Under water the heat shouldn't be a problem and standard tapping tools have long bars on both ends, as you probably know. Anyway all the details could be worked out by competent petro engineers if given the chance, definitely not by the media, pundits, or politicians.

ricksfolly
 
apdst said:
I trust the oil companies to keep things running smooth, before I would trust the government. BP is going to lose billions because of this spill. It only stands to reason that the folks with the most to lose, are the folks that are going to work the hardest to prevent this type of accident. But, at the end of the day, no matter who is gaurding the hend house, accidents happen.
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If the cost in damages is estimated to be less than the cost of the additional safety measures and procedures, retrofits, etc., then they would go ahead without any need to protect against such accidents as they are cost ineffective. Industry does this all the time, if they are competent and not legally restricted from doing so. In some cases, it's just the opposite. But in no case, is it strictly in their best interest to prevent accidents, as you believe.
 
Mach said:
If the cost in damages is estimated to be less than the cost of the additional safety measures and procedures, retrofits, etc., then they would go ahead without any need to protect against such accidents as they are cost ineffective. Industry does this all the time, if they are competent and not legally restricted from doing so. In some cases, it's just the opposite. But in no case, is it strictly in their best interest to prevent accidents, as you believe.
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When I was at the Lockheed Skunk Works, I had two plaques in my desk. One said "Plan Ahead," the other said "Adapt Or Die". Both apply here, and probably to every successful business.

ricksfolly
 
It just occurred to me that at some point the well will lose pressure long before all of it's contents are spilled; this is why rigs have to inject steam or mud into a well to get it to produce after a short time.

This means the '3x worse than Exxon Valdez' doomsday scenario is truly just a scare tactic, because that scenario requires the expulsion of the well's entire contents which the well doesn't have the pressure to do.
 
Jerry said:
It just occurred to me that at some point the well will lose pressure long before all of it's contents are spilled; this is why rigs have to inject steam or mud into a well to get it to produce after a short time.

This means the '3x worse than Exxon Valdez' doomsday scenario is truly just a scare tactic, because that scenario requires the expulsion of the well's entire contents which the well doesn't have the pressure to do.
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That's amazing. Your day dream proves that the idea that this could be worse than the Valdez is just a "scare tactic". :roll: Wow. You don't know how much oil is still down there or how long it can continue spewing yet, you think your "realization" is proof of anything. Now, if you'll just convince that hole in the bottom of the ocean of that. :doh
 
ADK_Forever said:
That's amazing. Your day dream proves that the idea that this could be worse than the Valdez is just a "scare tactic". :roll: Wow. You don't know how much oil is still down there or how long it can continue spewing yet, you think your "realization" is proof of anything. Now, if you'll just convince that hole in the bottom of the ocean of that. :doh
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I'll take that as a "no I have nothing to contribute to this discussion" then.
 
Coronado said:
Predictable. Great way for The Obama to get back in the good graces of the green weenie lobby. I bet Chavez and King Abdullah are laughing their asses off right now ...
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They are. But only because we still have not found alternative energy sources.
 
Jerry said:
I'll take that as a "no I have nothing to contribute to this discussion" then.
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Does he ever? I'm suprised he hasn't blamed bush yet for not scuba diving down thier and welding it shut himself yet. :ssst:
 
ricksfolly said:
Don't have to blow it up, just thread the broken pipe and screw on a standard shut-off valve. Divers have worked that deep before, so why not now?

I have difficulty visualizing what really happened down there, how they could use that oversize out house to seal off the oil, and how deep they have to go down to find an undamaged pipe section.

ricksfolly
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divers can go to 5k feet?
 
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