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Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

Grim17 said:
This is also contained in the law, that I'm posting especially for those of you who are comparing Arizona to Nazi Germany:

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.​

So if a person has any of the preceding, they are assumed to be in the country legally. Guess what folks, everyone in Arizona has to produce one of those forms of ID when questioned by the police, no matter what color your skin is.

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing the Nazi thing here?

.
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How about that you have to be carring ID with you at all time.

Out for a jog, better have your papers with you.

Swimming in a lake, better have your papers with yoi

Taking your dog for a walk, better have your papers with you

Or face being arrested as a suspected illegal immigrant.

In a free country if I dont want to carry my id when going for a walk, I should not face jail for doing so
 
Excerpted from “Business leaders worry Arizona's immigration bill may keep tourists, employers away” by Dawn Gilbertson and Betty Beard, The Arizona Republic, Apr. 22, 2010 12:00 AM
[SIZE="+2"]O[/SIZE]f the 37.4 million overnight visitors that year [2008], 3.8 million came from Mexico, the largest source of international visitors, according to the Arizona Office of Tourism. …
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There's nothing like biting the tit that feeds you, eh, Arizona? You just ****ed with your biggest international customer. Good luck with that.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
How about that you have to be carring ID with you at all time.

Out for a jog, better have your papers with you.

Swimming in a lake, better have your papers with yoi

Taking your dog for a walk, better have your papers with you

Or face being arrested as a suspected illegal immigrant.

In a free country if I dont want to carry my id when going for a walk, I should not face jail for doing so
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Having lived in Arizona I can tell you, that it is the law that EVERYONE carry legal identification in public. I know this based on personal experience, having once been stopped by police while walking home from the store late one evening. They simply asked me a few questions like my name, address and date of birth, then called it in to make sure I was who I said I was. After I checked out, they informed me that it was the law in Arizona that adults must carry some form of identification when in public.

If they can ask me to prove who I am, and require me to carry the same ID as the new law requires, then it's not discriminatory nor can it possibly be racial profiling, since I'm a green eyed white boy of mixed European decent who's family has been in the US for half a dozen generations.

Now what do you have to say?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
How about that you have to be carring ID with you at all time.

Out for a jog, better have your papers with you.

Swimming in a lake, better have your papers with yoi

Taking your dog for a walk, better have your papers with you

Or face being arrested as a suspected illegal immigrant.

In a free country if I dont want to carry my id when going for a walk, I should not face jail for doing so
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Papiere, bitte. In Arizona, we literally do not have the right to walk around without proof of citizenship anymore, because that's grounds for detainment. And like our conservative friends keep saying, it's not about race. Everyone is subject to this.
 
Grim17 said:
Having lived in Arizona I can tell you, that it is the law that EVERYONE carry legal identification in public. I know this based on personal experience, having once been stopped by police while walking home from the store late one evening. They simply asked me a few questions like my name, address and date of birth, then called it in to make sure I was who I said I was. After I checked out, they informed me that it was the law in Arizona that adults must carry some form of identification when in public.

If they can ask me to prove who I am, and require me to carry the same ID as the new law requires, then it's not discriminatory nor can it possibly be racial profiling, since I'm a green eyed white boy of mixed European decent who's family has been in the US for half a dozen generations.

Now what do you have to say?
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I would hate to live in Arizona

I hate that level of police power

The police are to serve me, not the other way around. Not that they do a great job of it. Never having found my stolen motorcycle
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I would hate to live in Arizona

I hate that level of police power

The police are to serve me, not the other way around. Not that they do a great job of it. Never having found my stolen motorcycle
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What makes you think it's any different in any other state?
 
Grim17 said:
What makes you think it's any different in any other state?
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In Minnesota if the police stop me on the street they can't haul me down to the station just because I have a German name and forgot my wallet.

edit: because those things are not crimes.
 
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Deuce said:
In Minnesota if the police stop me on the street they can't haul me down to the station just because I have a German name and forgot my wallet.
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No **** Sherlock!

Did you not read my post?

They will ask you specific questions and check you out on the computer. If your info checks out, and your face matches the one that pops up on their computer screen, you are let go. That's all there is to it.

Any citizen or legal resident knows their name, address and date of birth.
 
Chappy said:
There's nothing like biting the tit that feeds you, eh, Arizona? You just ****ed with your biggest international customer. Good luck with that.
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From your post 34.7million overnight visitors and 3.8million came from Mexico. So thats about 10%. Of the 3.8 million how many do you really think will stay away? To reduce the problem and hopefully get the Feds to do their job. I'll support what Az is doing.

Thanks for the well wishes. So glad to see other States care about the issue. :mrgreen:
 
Deuce said:
In Minnesota if the police stop me on the street they can't haul me down to the station just because I have a German name and forgot my wallet.

edit: because those things are not crimes.
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And they can't do it here either!

For God's sake read the LAW. They can only investigate legal status when talking to a person about something NOT related to their immigration status!!!

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.


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The sheer dishonesty of the pro illegal immigration side is staggering.

NO officer can approach a person and that focus be on their immigration status! They MUST be first addressing another point of law such as speeding or other potential violation.

Please pro illegal immigration people, stop trying to rewrite the law and read it as it is WRITTEN not how you FEEL it is written!
 
danarhea said:
Looks good on the surface, but it is rotten underneath. As evidence, I present the case of a guy who, just a few days ago, was jailed because he did not provide police a birth certificate. BTW, he was born in the US. Also, notice his color.
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Read what it says

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

My God can you get a more one sided story?

You have one side of the story, period. You have no idea what he told the police.
 
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texmaster said:
Read what it says

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

My God can you get a more one sided story?

You have one side of the story, period.
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Yes reading what it says would be quite important to understand what happened

Perhaps this part might have been important to read

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
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Lord Tammerlain said:
Yes reading what it says would be quite important to understand what happened

Perhaps this part might have been important to read
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and the rest of the story:
"A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.

The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling." With the number of id theft and false SSN being used in AZ, I cannot blame ICE for wanting to make sure.

So this happended before the law was signed and before its even enacted. Seems the Feds are saying its SOP. You think maybe since the story is now released in the news after the signing of the law that someone is playing the "race" card?
 
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CriticalThought said:
Where do any of those cases give local cops the authority to demand papers from Hispanic citizens based solely on their skin color or manner of speaking? That is what I am primarily arguing.
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Well, at least you sorta admitted you were wrong on that part... now let's go on to your next misrepresentation:

Where in the law does it say that local law enforcement can or will demand papers based on skin color or manner of speaking ???

Answer: It doesn't

They can ONLY be asked to prove citizenship when being detained for some other reason such as a traffic stop. No one can walk down the street and demand papers for no reason.
 
And they can't do it here either!

For God's sake read the LAW. They can only investigate legal status when talking to a person about something NOT related to their immigration status!!!


The sheer dishonesty of the pro illegal immigration side is staggering.

NO officer can approach a person and that focus be on their immigration status! They MUST be first addressing another point of law such as speeding or other potential violation.

Please pro illegal immigration people, stop trying to rewrite the law and read it as it is WRITTEN not how you FEEL it is written!
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What, your justification is that the officer needs a reason to talk to me first? You know just talking to me could be considered "lawful contact," right?

Then you go and rant about this, which is exactly the premise of my opposition to this bill.

texmaster said:
Read what it says

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

My God can you get a more one sided story?

You have one side of the story, period. You have no idea what he told the police.
Click to expand...

You know this is exactly what I was talking about, right? The man went to jail because he didn't have his papers with him. One-sided? That's the only side. The man went to jail because he didn't have his birth certificate on him.
 
digsbe said:
Great, they can go to jail for breaking the law and be exposed as people who support breaking immigration laws. Let them protest, I have no sympathy for them. What about the law abiding citizens or legal immigrants in Arizona? All Arizona is doing is making it a state offense to commit a federal crime, they are also taking measures to enforce the law. Is this a bad thing? If anything it's a wonderful thing. I applaud Arizona for passing this bold legislation :applaud
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Nice false choice fallacy - either your support the Arizona law or you support illegal immigration. :roll:

Maybe there's a better way to enforce immigration laws.
 
This "law" is ripe for abuse and as invariably happens, will be abused. It will also cause a plethora of both expected, and unanticipated problems for local and state LE. It's nothing more than a unicorn to appease to authoritarian fringers. It will "solve" nothing.
 
There's an interesting parallel to laws designed to enforce gun possession laws.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Yes reading what it says would be quite important to understand what happened

Perhaps this part might have been important to read
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Thats right and again if you had read carefully the concern came from the conversation he had with the officer. You have no idea what was said that set off the concern.

Please read more carefully.
 
Whatever is required, the illegals will come up with it. They're not HS grads because, in the rural areas of Mexico, they are all home schooled. They are crafty.

AZ's law says that they will except driver's licenses from other states. They will get DLs from other states. They will obtain bogus papers of any sort that are needed. There's a huge black market already in place where they get their vehicle inspection, tags, and bogus proof of insurance.

This new law will result in quite a few arrests, detainments, and deportations in the early months after it is passed. Then it will trickle down to the current levels. And all of the Mexicans will be back.

Should the economy improve, providing jobs for the illegals, they won't be seen in large numbers looking for work anymore. They'll be back to blending into the landscape.
 
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Deuce said:
What, your justification is that the officer needs a reason to talk to me first? You know just talking to me could be considered "lawful contact," right?
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That is false. Please quote the law that says that.

Then you go and rant about this, which is exactly the premise of my opposition to this bill.
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Still waiting for you to prove lawful contact means the police can make up a reason to be talking to you or for no reason at all.

You know this is exactly what I was talking about, right? The man went to jail because he didn't have his papers with him. One-sided? That's the only side. The man went to jail because he didn't have his birth certificate on him.
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#1 He didn't go to jail. that is false.

#2 He didn't get held because he didn't have his birth certificate. He was held because of the answers he gave the police which prompted them to ask for more evidence of residency. It is not a standard requirement. You have no idea what was said that set off the officers.
 
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All this fuss over simply trying to enforce a federal law that is already on the books. That's why they call them ILLEGAL immigrants.

The Democrats don't care; they are merely trying to secure a voting base.

The Republicans don't care; they have never agressively enforced what was already in existence.

Meanwhile, the coyotes continue to charge $2,500 to illegals to get them in the country, and if they can't come up wih the cash, they are required to smuggle drugs in the process. All the while, crime along the borders is increasing, and America is becoming more and more vulnerable.
 
Erod said:
All this fuss over simply trying to enforce a federal law that is already on the books. That's why they call them ILLEGAL immigrants.

The Democrats don't care; they are merely trying to secure a voting base.

The Republicans don't care; they have never agressively enforced what was already in existence.

Meanwhile, the coyotes continue to charge $2,500 to illegals to get them in the country, and if they can't come up wih the cash, they are required to smuggle drugs in the process. All the while, crime along the borders is increasing, and America is becoming more and more vulnerable.
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Corection.

Dems you have right on.


But its the same for republicans, they don't want to piss off certain small businesses and farming groups, a voting base.
 
Excerpted from “Arizona immigration law: Will Mexico boycotts cripple trade? Mexico boycotts in response to the Arizona immigration law may put a dent in trade with Arizona's No. 1 partner.” By Sara Miller Llana, Staff writer, The Christian Science Monitor, April 28, 2010
[SIZE="+2"]F[/SIZE]ernando Jimenez, the Director of Trade and Investment for the Americas for the Arizona Department of Commerce, says that in 2009, nearly $4.5 billion worth of products were exported from the state to Mexico, which is Arizona’s No. 1 trading partner. That includes semiconductor chips, machinery, and plastics.

“Trade with Mexico is extremely important for our state,” he says.

Also, nearly 40 percent of fruits of vegetables imported to the US from Mexico pass through Arizona, according to research by the Colegio de la Frontera Norte.

If boycotts from Mexico become widespread, it could hurt the state economy.

Cesar Nava, the president of Mr. Calderon’s ruling National Action Party, called on Mexicans to abstain from visiting Arizona, in protest of the legislation and in solidarity with Mexicans already there.

More threats could come in the days ahead. Mexican President Felipe Calderon, whose government condemned the law, said that trade and political ties will be “seriously affected.”
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I wonder where this will lead. Will business be hurt? Will tourism be hurt? Will Arizona's overall economic recovery be hurt? I rather think so on all counts.
 
Chappy said:
I wonder where this will lead. Will business be hurt? Will tourism be hurt? Will Arizona's overall economic recovery be hurt? I rather think so on all counts.
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I don't think so. Personally I'm pushing up my trip to phoenix to this year instead of next. :shrug:
 
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