• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

White Supremacists, Demonstrators square off in L.A.

I just find it absurd that people who pray to/venerate saints can call themselves Christians, most Christians share this view. It has nothing to do with hatred but everything to do with Exodus 20:3-4/Deuteronomy 5:7-8. If you notice I do not jump on the bash the catholic church bandwagon every time some phony Catholic politician gets called out by his priest.

1. We do NOT pray to saints, we ask them to pray on our behalf, much as we would also ask a friend or fellow parishoner to do the same.

2. When we "venerate" a saint, it is showing heartfelt respect for the example that person shows the faithful and that we should also learn to apply their lessons in our own lives.

3. As for "most Christians", you should know that there are nearly three times more Catholics than Protestants and then you have Eastern Orthodox in addition to Catholics and even Protestant sects like Anglicans.
 
Catholics pray to or venerate saints don't they? Which is a blatant violation of Exodus 20:3-4/Deuteronomy 5:7-8. Catholic saints also basically represent something much the same way pagan gods fo. Basically catholics just replaced Jupiter with God and everyone else with catholic saints and even added some of their own, How can anyone not say Catholics are pagans? IF anything is silly it is the idea that Catholics are Christians.

We don't pray to saints, we ask them to intercede on our behalf. Big difference. Sorry you are getting badly misinformed by your Protestant pastors.


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saint]Patron saint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Patron saint: A patron saint is a saint who is regarded as the intercessor and advocate in heaven of a nation, place, craft, activity, class, or person.
 
If it acts like a pagan prays like a pagan then perhaps it is a pagan.

Do you subscribe to the notion that if you repeat a lie often enough, it will become the truth?

Yes you all do.

Thanks for telling me what I do.

Why Roman Catholics Pray to Saints - Prayer to Saints in Roman Catholicism


I prefer a more authoritative source.


VENERATION (OF SAINTS): Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints (828). Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship, which are due to God alone (1154, 1674, 2132).


Men you pray to men the Catholic religion has idolized. So it is a blatant violation of Exodus 20:3-4/

Once again, we don't pray TO them. We ask them to intercede on our behalf.

Christians only pray to God. So no Catholics are not Christians.

Catholics only pray to God.

Again praying to saints is not Christianity. Just because you do not call it praying and use some paper coated term does not change the fact it is praying. Pagans pray to things other than God. Catholics are not Christians nor are they even the first to claim to be Christians. Catholicism is something the roman ripped off from the Christians they were persecuting and integrated it with paganism. You are no more a Christian than a Jew(unless it is a Messianic Jew), Wiccan or a Muslim.
[/QUOTE]

Only, we don't PRAY to saints.... I love how a NON-Catholic thinks he knows more about Catholicism than people on here who are practicing Catholics. Sorry, I think the CCC trumps you or About.com as a source.
 
Its a Irish holiday or in this country a drinking Holiday associated with Ireland,not Irish pride.
It's both.
In a clerical sense it's the celebration of the patron saint of Ireland. Remember that it'll make sense in a minute.


Sure some might, but most just see Saint Patty's day a drinking holiday just like kids see Christmas as presents day, Easter as Look for candy,plastic eggs and some cases real eggs day and Halloween as dress up in costumes and get free candy day.We take these holidays to mean different things regardless of their original intent, which is why some see it as Irish pride even though its intent is to celebrate a Catholic saint who brought Catholicism to the Irish.
It's association with Irish pride and nationality comes from the surpression of Irish culture and identity in the late middle ages up to the 19th century. During which even our native language was surpressed. We could still celebrate our patron saint and it being uniquely Irish became the defacto day of celebration of being Irish in a time when this was not permitted.
This tradition went on for centuries and was not changed when we got our independance in 1922.
An alternative could have been the comemeration of the Easter Rising in 1916, the signing of the treaty in 1922 or the ratification of the constitution in the 30s. None were needed as we already had a centuries long tradition in St. Patricks day.

It's obvious you have never seen the celebration in Chicago! :mrgreen:

Bigest St. Parade? Boston, then New York, then London, - Dublin comes in somewhere between Sidney and Moscow....
 
There wouldn't be anything wrong with celebrating your 'race', if such things really existed. There is no such thing as 'the White race', not biologically, sociologically, culturally or linguistically. If anyone can give a clear, unambiguous definition of what this white 'race' is, then we can start discussing whether or not it is something to be proud of, to defend, or to attack.

What IS it?

The Irish, English, Scots and Welsh.
Look at a beach next time you are out. Try and find a group of pastier whitearsed people than that....We have two colours. Deathly white and Lobster red.:mrgreen:
 
The unarmed invasion is the reason the jobs pay so little no american will take them.

Possibly. Or maybe it's the fact that Americans expect cheap prices. Or both.
 
The Irish, English, Scots and Welsh.
Look at a beach next time you are out. Try and find a group of pastier whitearsed people than that....We have two colours. Deathly white and Lobster red.:mrgreen:

What, no Swedes or Finns?
 
I don't know. Maybe it is a big Irish Pride Day here in Boston and where you live it is more of a drinking day. I am not denying that it isn't a big drinking day up here because it most certainly is. But people drink to celebrate their Irishness (sp?). It is the only day where everyone in the city can call themselves Irish whether they really are or not.

It's spelled "Awesomness".:mrgreen:
 
The Irish, English, Scots and Welsh.
Look at a beach next time you are out. Try and find a group of pastier whitearsed people than that....We have two colours. Deathly white and Lobster red.:mrgreen:

As a descendant of Normans and Bretons, I can COMPLETELY relate...
 
Then again, he doesn't think we are Christians.

Now, I know you dislike the Catholic Church, but you can't deny that Catholic believers have done many good things over time.

I just found his ignorance on the matter funny. Don't push it. ;)
 
The Irish, English, Scots and Welsh.
Look at a beach next time you are out. Try and find a group of pastier whitearsed people than that....We have two colours. Deathly white and Lobster red.:mrgreen:

Speak for yourself. To quote the sainted Connolly, it takes me 3 weeks in Benidorm to stop looking blue.
 
The unarmed invasion is the reason the jobs pay so little no american will take them.

Actually no. You can't expect to be paid big bucks for flipping hamburgers in a fast food joint.
 
No I didn't. He responded to me suggesting we should not support these neo nazis.

There was no need to say it because no one on this thread ever said one word of support for them.

But go ahead and explain why he said that even though no one had defended the neo nazis. What possible point was to be made making a statement of response to an action no one took?



La Raza aka the race. You would literally have to be a fool not to see the connection but if you need more:

One of America's greatest strengths has always been taking in immigrants from cultures around the world, and assimilating them into our country as Americans. By being citizens of the U.S. we are Americans first, and only, in our national loyalties.

This is totally opposed by MEChA for the hordes of illegal immigrants pouring across our borders, to whom they say:

"Chicano is our identity; it defines who we are as people. It rejects the notion that we...should assimilate into the Anglo-American melting pot...Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas ... It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny." (Statement on University of Oregon MEChA Website, Jan. 3, 2006)

"In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. ... Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. ... We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."


- HUMAN EVENTS

Their form of racism is no different than white supremacists.

Is every member of La Raza a racist? No. But the message they send is clear. They look out only for their own race and see American borders as an invasion of "their" land.

LA RAZA is a racist organization because one of their mottos is "for our race everything, for the rest nothing". How could someone not be offended by that? I am and I am Mexican-American.
 
Its really a shame that white people who want to celebrate their race (for the right reasons) are looked down upon. I feel like this is because whites in general have no unifying culture.

Now wait. Before you jump down my throat, what I mean to say is that since the white population is so large and so spread out across the world, there is nothing that unites them. Of course, there are cultural norms that unify Italians and Irish and Germans and so on, but not whites in general. This is why its looked down upon.

However, it seems impossible for whites as a whole to create a unifying culture, because in general, the white "culture" is essentially everything that is "not non-white." What I mean is that Italians have specific cultural concepts, Irish have concepts, Germans have concepts, but the entire white race does not have these things to call specific.

Okay, now you can jump down my throat.

I think its a conspiracy as to why we can have hispanic month black history month, etc. And the white politicians support this because its a way to assimilate different colors into a specific color group for the sole reason of keeping conflict here in the states. Not much else, with conflict there is little trust and as long as politicians can continue selling race the people of this country will be divided....as long as the people believe them and they do.
 
LA RAZA is a racist organization because one of their mottos is "for our race everything, for the rest nothing". How could someone not be offended by that? I am and I am Mexican-American.

An excellent point but usually lost on some. One has to reframe it such that it's obviously racist for those who disagree to see it. Simply replace "LA RAZA" in your above reply with "WHITE POWER" without changing anything else and we now have obviousness. If it's racist for Whites, it's racist for any other ethnic derivation.
 
LA RAZA is a racist organization because one of their mottos is "for our race everything, for the rest nothing". How could someone not be offended by that? I am and I am Mexican-American.

And yet, when you actually go check this, it turns out not to be true, just as I suspected. Took me less than a second on Google.

Tancredo piled on the information, or misinformation, during his CNN appearance, making the charge NCLR’s “logo is ‘All for the race, nothing for the rest.’ ”

“What he said was our motto is not our motto,” Navarrete said, giving Tancredo the benefit of the doubt that he meant motto, not logo. “It’s not anybody’s motto. He doesn’t really know what he’s talking about if he doesn’t know the difference between a logo and a motto.”

As for the phrase Tancredo finds so offensive? “It was a phrase that was found in a document from a college student group more than 40 years ago but has nothing to do with our organization,” Navarrete said.

La Raza blasts Tancredo for Klan comparison: ‘Get his facts straight’ Colorado Independent
 
Actually, the NCLR primarily works through local coalitions that provide services to underprivileged latinos.

In a sense, their primary mission is to take care of their own, through:

"Since NCLR was founded in 1968, the body of NCLR’s Affiliate Network has grown to nearly 300 community-based organizations. Their services are diverse and include charter schools, after-school programs, job readiness and training, English language preparation, homeownership counseling, health centers, and community activities centers, to name a few. In total, these organizations provide services to approximately 4 million Hispanic Americans.

http://www.nclr.org/section/network/

They do a lot of good work in the communities I'm familiar with. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with them.
 
And yet, when you actually go check this, it turns out not to be true, just as I suspected. Took me less than a second on Google.



La Raza blasts Tancredo for Klan comparison: ‘Get his facts straight’ Colorado Independent

Technically you're correct. La Raza hasn't endorsed such a saying publicly. Which isn't to say the organization or members don't endorse it - just that they haven't publicly done so. Aztlan and MecHa however, I believe may endorse the slogan but then again, I'm not involved in the whole repatriation events and politics of the Hispanic people to take back stolen lands, thing.
 
Technically you're correct. La Raza hasn't endorsed such a saying publicly.

La Raza has never used the statement. The end.

Aztlan and MecHa however, I believe may endorse the slogan but then again, I'm not involved in the whole repatriation events and politics of the Hispanic people to take back stolen lands, thing.

Aztlan isn't an organization, it is an ideology about a place. MecHa clearly has some issues. But, MecHa is not NCLR.
 
La Raza has never used the statement. The end.

Never is an absolute - one person claiming to be a member of La Raza may have said it at some point whether publicly of which you may or may not be aware. Hence, what I said stands.


Aztlan isn't an organization, it is an ideology about a place. MecHa clearly has some issues. But, MecHa is not NCLR.

Ok. No one's comparing or making a claim one is the other.
 
Technically you're correct. La Raza hasn't endorsed such a saying publicly. Which isn't to say the organization or members don't endorse it - just that they haven't publicly done so.

If they haven't publicly endorsed it, they haven't endorsed it.

You have't publicly endorsed raping nuns either. Not publicly. Hmmm.

Now, can we get back to reality, instead of lame, twisted excuses for telling lies?
 
Never is an absolute - one person claiming to be a member of La Raza may have said it at some point whether publicly of which you may or may not be aware. Hence, what I said stands.

So we can judge an organization by what any of its members may have said now?

Cool! I have some awesome signs proving all teabaggers are racist idiots!

Come on, Ockham, don't pretend to be dumb to score points, it's pathetic.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom