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Bush 'knew Guantanamo prisoners were innocent'

Chappy said:
I don't recall name calling on my part. You seem to be the aggressor.

GHWB was the youngest American pilot in WWII. We should honor his service to the nation then and all his other service, too. But I also recall the “Read my lips …” line which was a cowardly concession to the radicals in his party. I recall the [paraphrased] “I wasn't in the room” excuse when the arms for hostages deal was revealed. I recall the 1988 Willie Horton ad which played on racial stereotypes. And, on and on. GHWB should be honored but his was not a profile in courage in the years following Ford's departure.
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No politician is perfect, but to say no republican has show courage since Ford(who I agree showed great courage) is an exaggeration and essentially name calling. It does not make a point and it is not accurate. We liberals can win on the issues, we don't need to go the low road.

note: yes, I know I sometimes manage to go the "low road" myself. I am not perfect either, but I do try and be fair.
 
Erod said:
Blah, blah, blah. Mindless drivel.

Still waiting for the proof that these guys were innocent. Not expecting it, so carry on......

Now take a deep breath.......and........"Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush....."

The brainwashing is confounding.
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Like I said...
The pattern is that kool-aid drinking rightees don't believe any proof when it is provided by anyone except their kool-aid dispensing lying leaders.
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Erod said:
Still waiting for the proof that these guys were innocent.
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We're still waiting for the proof that they're guilty.

BTW you'd make a terrible prosecutor.
 
What we have are a lot of accusations without a lot of proof that I know of. I have long supported a comprehensive investigation into the prisoner and interrogation methods used since the start of the war, not with the aim of finding guilt, but finding out for sure what happened so we can improve and clarify our rules.
 
No you see with terrists its guilty until proven dead.
 
ADK_Forever said:
Like I said...
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BTW I don't think this is true because as we see from this thread not even Bush/Cheney et al. believed that they were all guilty. In this case the Kool Aid drinkers are even worse than their masters.

But this is because Bush/Cheney didn't have to morally support the decision while puppets like Erod do, so they have to believe they're all guilty or everything they stand for falls to pieces.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
BTW I don't think this is true because as we see from this thread not even Bush/Cheney et al. believed that they were all guilty. In this case the Kool Aid drinkers are even worse than their masters.
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Excellent point!
 
Chappy said:
… The Republican Party hasn't exactly been a source of profiles in courage since President Ford was ushered off the stage.
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My emphasis.

Redress said:
… to say no republican has show courage since Ford(who I agree showed great courage) is an exaggeration and essentially name calling. …
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And of course, I didn't say “no Republican has shown courage” so I think your criticism is misplaced.

McCain use to show some courage in the face of right-wing criticism, but, even he lately has been renouncing his own “maverick” ways lately.¹
 
Khayembii Communique said:
BTW I don't think this is true because as we see from this thread not even Bush/Cheney et al. believed that they were all guilty. In this case the Kool Aid drinkers are even worse than their masters.

But this is because Bush/Cheney didn't have to morally support the decision while puppets like Erod do, so they have to believe they're all guilty or everything they stand for falls to pieces.
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But, ultimate responsibility goes all the way to the top does it not? You are responsible for the actions of those under you. It is your job to sniff out the bad stuff if there is something wrong if you got the power. And if you dont take the time to do that then you are just as guilty through apathy. I wonder if they where in the clouds and didn't know or if they kept distance on purpose for plausible deniability.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
But, ultimate responsibility goes all the way to the top does it not? You are responsible for the actions of those under you. It is your job to sniff out the bad stuff if there is something wrong if you got the power. And if you dont take the time to do that then you are just as guilty through apathy. I wonder if they where in the clouds and didn't know or if they kept distance on purpose for plausible deniability.
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What? Of course they knew. Everybody knew. It's just common sense based on how the Guantanamo system is set up.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
What? Of course they knew. Everybody knew. It's just common sense based on how the Guantanamo system is set up.
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Then they are responsible for each innocent life taken and all innocent time lost through imprisonment.
 
Erod said:
Still waiting for the proof that these guys were innocent. Not expecting it, so carry on..
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Don't you get it? This is precisely the issue. This is what makes the situation in Guantanamo so morally reprehensible. These prisoners are not afforded the opportunity to prove themselves innocent. Forget about the presumption of guilt. They were being held without respect to guilt or innocence. There was no trial, no due process, no opportunity to argue the question of innocence. Some were held prisoner for years in this way.

Whether they're guilty or not is irrelevant when talking about our nation's ethical responsibility. By offering no trial, we fall short of our highest ideals. The allegation here is cowardice. It's a cowardly act to abandon the principles of law out of fear.
 
Erod said:
It's a f***ing war! You can't fight it like the Mulberry police department.

It's a good thing we didn't fight WWII like liberals would suggest. We'd all have Adolph's picture on our walls.
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Semantics. Just because both WWII and the War on Terror are called "wars" doesn't change the reality of these conflicts -- or the differences between them.

Or are you suggesting that we invade Europe?
 
Erod said:
Not U.S. citizens. They have no such right, and this is war.
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From the Declaration of Indpendence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it."

That document was our justification for revolt; it was the case for American independence. I personally believe that holding people without charge violates these "unalienable rights" and is a form of tyranny.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
From the Declaration of Indpendence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it."

That document was our justification for revolt; it was the case for American independence. I personally believe that holding people without charge violates these "unalienable rights" and is a form of tyranny.
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So now we're supposed to try every prisoner of war as a U.S. citizen?
 
Erod said:
So now we're supposed to try every prisoner of war as a U.S. citizen?
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If they are prisoners of war, shouldn't the Geneva Convention apply?
 
Erod said:
So now we're supposed to try every prisoner of war as a U.S. citizen?
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No, we're just supposed to respect their rights as human beings and provide an avenue for their defense. They don't have to be tried as citizens, but they do have to be tried.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
No, we're just supposed to respect their rights as human beings and provide an avenue for their defense. They don't have to be tried as citizens, but they do have to be tried.
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In military tribunals, I agree. So what's the holdup?
 
Redress said:
If they are prisoners of war, shouldn't the Geneva Convention apply?
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No, because they don't represent a country as a soldier. They are enemy combatants of the U.S.

And trust me, the good people of the Middle East are very thankful we've got them locked up.
 
Are there really any prisons which have never held any innocent people?
 
Erod said:
No, because they don't represent a country as a soldier. They are enemy combatants of the U.S.

And trust me, the good people of the Middle East are very thankful we've got them locked up.
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So they are not prisoners of war. You want to have things both ways, but it don't work that way.
 
Redress said:
So they are not prisoners of war. You want to have things both ways, but it don't work that way.
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Al-Qaeda is not a representative of a nation and did not sign the Geneva Conventions, thus they can be prisoners of war without being protected by them.
 
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