House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

Dav said:
For one thing, there are many ways to know the will of one's constituents without polls.

True. However, I'd suggest to you that most of the Democratic representatives who voted for this legislation not only conducted local polls, but also received local feedback AND attended, in person, townhall meetings in their area.

But do you really think that everyone who voted for a Democrat in 2008 liked a bill that didn't even exist yet back then? Because I can guarantee you that's not the case (I've already noted two people I know who wouldn't have voted for a Democrat if they knew what would have come of it; if you think those are isolated cases, you haven't been paying much attention to politics lately).

You don't vote for a bill. In a representative democracy, you vote for a person that you are entrusting to do your work, legislatively. That's how a representative democracy works, Dav. In my case, my representative is Alan Boyd. I know his name well because I contact his office at least once a month to express my views on one subject or another. I voted for him because I like him, and I trust him to do the job.

Let me say it now though: opinion polls show the will of the people. That's actually what they're measuring, so it's hard to say that they don't.

You're attempting to spin it that the legislators should enact the will of a straight, overall majority of American opinion, but that is not how a representative democracy works. Legislators represent THEIR INDIVIDUAL DISTRICT'S desires and goals. That's how Nancy Pelosi is able to be repeatedly elected. She doesn't work for you, Dav. She works for millions of people in Northern California.

But now that you mention it, it's funny all the people now saying the will of the people doesn't matter when a bill is unpopular by a large margin, but were viciously against ignoring the will of the people in 2000, when their candidate won a plurality by a fraction of a percent

.

Interestingly enough, I explained the role of the electoral college about ten million times in 2000 and 2001, just as patiently as I'm explaining representative democracy to you. My views on how the system works have not changed, substantially, since I was in high school and being elected to state congress.

A bill that didn't exist until recently has been on the Democratic agenda since 1992?

The issue has been on the Democratic agenda since 1992, and both Clinton and Obama were rather clear and specific about what they hoped to accomplish. If people didn't hear them, exactly whose fault is that?

People who vote for any Democrat at all expect them to support the entirety of the Democratic agenda?

Well, I tend to believe that we know who we're voting for in advance. That's what campaigning is for. I voted for Obama, and I realized, pretty clearly, that he would probably implement or try to implement something that looked a lot like this bill. If you didn't realize it, whose fault is that?

Question: when was the last time an important bill as unpopular as this one was approved by a slim partisan majority? Was it under Bush? Clinton? Surely in the last 20 years, right? The last 50 years? 100?

I wouldn't say that going to war in Iraq was particularly popular. Nor was Bush's election in 2000, for that matter. We seem to have kept ourselves from outright fighting in the streets, for the most part.

Answer: 1854. The Kansas-Nebraska Act. But people came to like that one over time... right? Hey, they voted for Democrats, so they must've secretly approved of it in the back of their minds. It's not like civil war would break out over it or anything... right?

See what happens when the Democrats attempt to appease the Republicans instead of just doing their jobs?

Gina · Mar 25, 2010

LaMidRighter said:
13% is alot of the people, but it isn't statistically signifigant.
The point was that everyone is saying that is what he was elected on, but during the campaign it was always treated as a secondary issue, those things rarely see the light of day, something I didn't think of earlier actually, so a lot of people maybe said give him a chance, it's not like he's really gonna get anything damaging done. Well, now people know better. Obviously not, since I consume much more news than the average person and it was treated like a secondary issue.

Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be statistically significant to make my point since the example was but a few people in your post.

Did you vote for Obama?

F107HyperSabr said:

This Bill is just about what the Republican controlled Hertitage group proposed back in the 1990's in response to the Clinton & Clinton health insurance care so called plan. So in essence the TP ARTISTS are going absolutely bezerk over a Bill that there own ilk was touting.

This is why I have no respect for the TP ARTISTS they are nothing but slogans, empty rhetoric and I must honestly say BS !!!

Click to expand...

I noticed that! There are striking similarities.

It doesn't matter what Obama does, it's wrong for them. Look at the seven senators who voted against their own bill after Obama openly expressed support.

LaMidRighter · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
I can't speak to the news in Louisiana, but in Florida, the websites were rife with conservatives bleating that Obama = socialized medicine.

So, forgive me if I'm a little sick of it all at this point.

I voted for Obama. I'm not a wild-eyed liberal. I was iffy about the bill. However, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this subject. This bill is modeled very closely on what Massachusetts did. I've read about what's happened with medicine in other western countries. I'm not thrilled about healthcare reform, but I have to agree with Bob Dole: The system is broken and needs to be fixed.

Will this fix it? I don't know. It's a start. I see this exactly the way I saw welfare reform, which if you remember, required some additional tinkering.
I'm certainly not going to be firing my gun in the air and screaming that the sky is falling. We weathered 9/11 and Iraq. We'll figure it out.

All the frenzy makes the conservatives look a little kookoo-loco.

As I read the pages of this bill it is much worse than advertised, I don't know that we "weather this". I also don't judge national based on local news, not enough, I read alot of news and watch/listen from multiple sources, again I heard more talking points than details.

p.s. Boyfriend interjected that at least 50% of the back and forth between Hilary and Obama was about healthcare reform.

He's probably right, but this is something the people at political rallies and political junkies would know, not the average voter.

Redress · Mar 25, 2010

texmaster said:
This is a classic Redress tactic. When you can't argue the facts you impose an opinion your opponent never used.

Yes, damn me for using logic to show flaws in arguments. Got anything other than mindlessly attacking another poster who has embarrassed you far too often for your taste?

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

LaMidRighter said:
As I read the pages of this bill it is much worse than advertised, I don't know that we "weather this". I also don't judge national based on local news, not enough, I read alot of news and watch/listen from multiple sources, again I heard more talking points than details.

He's probably right, but this is something the people at political rallies and political junkies would know, not the average voter.

The average person in my neck of the woods who voted for a democrat (the majority in my county) knew they were voting for healthcare reform. In fact, in local polling, that was one of the big local issues.

:shrug:

LaMidRighter · Mar 25, 2010

Gina said:
Gina said:

It doesn't have to be statistically significant to make my point since the example was but a few people in his post.

Did you vote for Obama?

Click to expand...

Well, yes and no. The point is that everyone is trying to say that the popularity of this bill was misrepresented like it actually matters in the long run, the fact is it's not. And no I didn't vote for Obama, I barely voted for McCain and not willingly, I didn't want a rubber stamp administration and well, my side lost.

LaMidRighter · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
The average person in my neck of the woods who voted for a democrat (the majority in my county) knew they were voting for healthcare reform. In fact, in local polling, that was one of the big local issues.

:shrug:

in some regions I'm absolutely sure that's possible, but the overall point is that most of the country is on record as hating this bill.

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

americans did endorse health care with obama, yes, indeed

but THIS health care, no

not even close

you need to buy a tv

if americans were endorsing THIS health care, what's pieface doing in iowa today?

and just survey the sea change:

republicans lead in michigan by between FIFTEEN and TWENTY TWO points

republicans lead in pennsylvania by between THIRTEEN and TWENTY ONE points

republicans lead in tennessee by between THIRTEEN and TWENTY points

republicans lead in iowa by SIXTEEN points

i don't cite these TRUTHS for merely partisan purposes

they are truly STUNNING numbers

republicans lead in CALIFORNIA by SIX points

that's about the bluest state in the union, and it's coming off six and a half disastrous years under ahnold, the true republican in name only (bless his heart)

republicans lead in OHIO (the biggest battleground) by FIVE (bless john kasich's heart)

republicans lead in FLORIDA (gore 2000, anyone?) by a WHOPPING ELEVEN points

vermont is red by between SEVEN and THIRTEEN

wisconsin by FIVE

almost all of those states are gop pickups

we just a few months back took richmond and trenton---two more pivotal players---both of which witnessed TWENTY FIVE point swings in the fateful YEAR OF OBAMA

bob ehrlich is set to announce in maryland, he'll be favored, which will be another state stolen from the blues

in wyoming freudenthal announced he will not run---you know how red wyoming is, cheyenne's assured

oklahoma's brad henry is term limited---do you think the sooners are gonna support the party of pelosi?

LOL!

and bill ritter, former superstar gub of key colorado, quit for mysterious (LOL!) reasons

you really might wanna look around, that health care train is about to mow you down

choo choo!

TBone · Mar 25, 2010

Re: Rep. Cantor: Shots Fired at Richmond Office

Jetboogieman said:
Actions against any politician of this nature are unnacceptable. I would hope no one condones these actions against either side.

Any act of violence against any member of Congress or any gov't offical should be treated as domestic terrorism.

Any group that condones violence, encourages, etc. is an enemy of the USA.

If a gov't cannot protect its leaders, then how do we expect it to protect us?

Morality Games · Mar 25, 2010

LaMidRighter said:
in some regions I'm absolutely sure that's possible, but the overall point is that most of the country is on record as hating this bill.

Which would bother me a lot more if most of the country could summarize its contents and forecast its effects in terms of historical and economic causality.

At any rate, the Democrats are willing to take a risk to do something important. That's more than I can say for the GOP.

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

LaMidRighter said:
in some regions I'm absolutely sure that's possible, but the overall point is that most of the country is on record as hating this bill.

I've already thoroughly explained that a simple majority nationwide DOES NOT MATTER. We have a representative democracy.

Furthermore, there are almost as many people who don't think the bill went far enough as those who feel it goes too far. Please stop exaggerating.

Just because Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck have been shedding tears for the past two weeks over this doesn't mean that generally thoughtful and well-adjusted posters on here get to lose their got-damn minds.

Dav · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
The average person in my neck of the woods who voted for a democrat (the majority in my county) knew they were voting for healthcare reform. In fact, in local polling, that was one of the big local issues.

:shrug:

They were voting "for health care reform", but were they voting for the specific bill? "Reform" is extremely general.

Catz Part Deux said:
True. However, I'd suggest to you that most of the Democratic representatives who voted for this legislation not only conducted local polls, but also received local feedback AND attended, in person, townhall meetings in their area.

And many (not all) of them obviously ignored what they found. Come on, if the people of Massachussetts didn't like the bill, do you really think that the constituents of every Democrat in Congress do? Many of them were voted in from conservative districts by promising to be bipartisan moderates who listened to the voters. Many of those are soon to be voted out now.

The issue has been on the Democratic agenda since 1992, and both Clinton and Obama were rather clear and specific about what they hoped to accomplish. If people didn't hear them, exactly whose fault is that?

Both Clinton and Obama were presidents. Presidents don't pass legislation, Congress does. It's called "separation of powers".

Well, I tend to believe that we know who we're voting for in advance. That's what campaigning is for. I voted for Obama, and I realized, pretty clearly, that he would probably implement or try to implement something that looked a lot like this bill. If you didn't realize it, whose fault is that?

The president can only sign or veto legislation. I am talking about Congress, which writes and passes it.

I wouldn't say that going to war in Iraq was particularly popular.

You'd be wrong then. Going to war in Iraq was quite popular, and approved in Congress by a large bipartisan majority.

Nor was Bush's election in 2000, for that matter.

Already covered, and not really relevant anyways. Bush is not a bill.

See what happens when the Democrats attempt to appease the Republicans instead of just doing their jobs?

Um, that was random. You do realize that Republicans only became popular after this bill was passed, for their opposition of it, right?

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

it's a lot more than beck

LOL!

it's SIXTY PLUS PERCENT of the folks in the KEYSTONE STATE

do you know the role of PENNSYLVANIA in presidential politics?

cuz if HARRISBURG goes, you can kiss goodbye any constituency left of, well, chris matthews is a real good face for the home of quaker penn

and, like i said, PENNSYLVANIA is LEANING red by an HISTORIC and EPIC 15 to 20 points

i'm not MAKING THIS STUFF UP

RealClearPolitics - Latest Election Polls

LOL!

it's REALLY BAD out there

the NUMBERS, they're REALLY BAD

oh well, have fun

have a party!

Dav · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
Furthermore, there are almost as many people who don't think the bill went far enough as those who feel it goes too far.

To this I must say:

Please stop exaggerating.

The vast majority of people opposed to the bill don't simply think it doesn't go far enough. Not "almost as many people".

apdst · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
I've already thoroughly explained that a simple majority nationwide DOES NOT MATTER. We have a representative democracy.

Furthermore, there are almost as many people who don't think the bill went far enough as those who feel it goes too far. Please stop exaggerating.

Just because Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck have been shedding tears for the past two weeks over this doesn't mean that generally thoughtful and well-adjusted posters on here get to lose their got-damn minds.

Well, then, don't bitch when the people are constantly ignored and ignored and ignored, then out of desperation act irrationally.

You can only **** over the American people so much before the fit hits the shan. The Liberals in Congress have crossed that line.

LaMidRighter · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
I've already thoroughly explained that a simple majority nationwide DOES NOT MATTER. We have a representative democracy.

Well, yes. I have never said that the will of the majority matters, however if there is a single question about the legality of a bills substance or it's consequences then you do the exact opposite of what the Democrat party did, you know, jamming it through with no consent at all from the governed.

Furthermore, there are almost as many people who don't think the bill went far enough as those who feel it goes too far. Please stop exaggerating.

13% is hardly almost as many people as the ones who said it went too far.

Just because Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck have been shedding tears for the past two weeks over this doesn't mean that generally thoughtful and well-adjusted posters on here get to lose their got-damn minds.

Fine, read the bill. I have started to re-read the provisions myself because it pertains to part of my insurance practice.....I'll tell you as a professional it sucks.

misterman · Mar 25, 2010

apdst said:
Well, then, don't bitch when the people are constantly ignored and ignored and ignored, then out of desperation act irrationally.

Ignored? They yelled and screamed at every town hall meeting this summer. You couldn't possibly ignore that.

Dav · Mar 25, 2010

One more thing, and then off to homework. This bill is unprecedented. Even Kansas-Nebraska had some Whig support. Nothing this big and this unpopular has ever been passed on such a partisan vote. So to say that it's just Congress acting as it normally does is false.

Dav out. (Thread topic? What thread topic?)

misterman · Mar 25, 2010

Dav said:
One more thing, and then off to homework. This bill is unprecedented. Even Kansas-Nebraska had some Whig support. Nothing this big and this unpopular has ever been passed on such a partisan vote.

So many big claims.

I seriously doubt this is true. I'll have to do a little research.

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

they jammed it thru against the express will of the people

remember massachusetts, scott brown, jersey #41

they only got 80% of their own caucus

social security, medicare and the voting rights act got between 50 and 80% of republican support

that's why they're valid and we're all stuck with em

we understand all your 5th grade civics lessons about fine distinctions between republics and democracies

read plato's republic, it'll blow your mind, the dude's a totalitarian

whatever

the process by which obama as much as DEEMED this thing is DAMNABLE

and you, the party in power, will have hell to pay for it

from dixie to the rust belt, from the rockies to the coasts, from the capitals to the capitols, from the states to the courts...

we weren't ignored, we were DEFIED

you don't mess with mother america

she's got a GREAT BIG spatula

in many parts of the country, she gonna make you go out there and CUT'CHO OWN SWITCH

and if aint be THICKER than mah THOMB, i's'a comin out there and CUTTIN on ONE MYSEF

LOL!

party on, progressives

but you probably better keep moving...

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

apdst said:
Well, then, don't bitch when the people are constantly ignored and ignored and ignored, then out of desperation act irrationally.

You can only **** over the American people so much before the fit hits the shan. The Liberals in Congress have crossed that line.

Oh, give it a ****ing rest. Y'all led us into war on two fronts, rode us hard, and left us wet and panting in the stables. It's time to give it a rest and let someone else steer the horse for a change. You'll survive...we did.

Give up the drama queening, men.

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

no drama, obama

it's called ASS KICKING

it's called POLITICS

it's called IT AINT NEVER GONNA STOP

it's CALLED YOU BETTER RUN, libs

cuz TWENTY POINTS IN PENNSYLVANIA is a LOT of points

LaMidRighter · Mar 25, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
Oh, give it a ****ing rest. Y'all led us into war on two fronts, rode us hard, and left us wet and panting in the stables. It's time to give it a rest and let someone else steer the horse for a change. You'll survive...we did.

Give up the drama queening, men.

Both wars had bi-partisan votes, and the power to declare war is found in the constitution, whereas there is no constitutional authority for this bill.

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

The Prof said:
no drama, obama

it's called ASS KICKING

it's called POLITICS

it's called IT AINT NEVER GONNA STOP

it's CALLED YOU BETTER RUN, libs

cuz TWENTY POINTS IN PENNSYLVANIA is a LOT of points

I'd like this a lot better with pompoms and a short skirt.

Catz Part Deux · Mar 25, 2010

LaMidRighter said:
Both wars had bi-partisan votes, and the power to declare war is found in the constitution, whereas there is no constitutional authority for this bill.

I'm sorry you're disappointed in the outcome of this legislation. :/

House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

Catz Part Deux

Gina

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!

Catz Part Deux

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

The Prof

TBone

Well-known member

Morality Games

Catz Part Deux

Dav

The Prof

Dav

apdst

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

misterman

Dav

misterman

The Prof

Catz Part Deux

The Prof

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

Catz Part Deux

Catz Part Deux