Parliamentarian Weighing GOP Challenge to Reconciliation Bill

Catawba · Mar 24, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
No it hasn't, this bill is very different from the one a year ago.
I guess it shows you didn't read it or about it.

Click to expand...

Many benefits in the bill are the same as they have discussed for over a year now. I provided a post referencing the current benefits included.

Not only that but reforming a whole market sector takes time, if your so impatient about maybe you should sit it out next time.

Click to expand...

I am patient, I have been waiting for decades now for America to catch up with the rest of the industrialized world. This brings us one step closer.

As soon as they pass the doc fix that deficit reduction will go the way of the dodo.
Your not paying attention again.

Click to expand...

You are presuming they will add the doc fix, and presuming they will not also add a way to pay for it.

I think I'll just wait on the facts thank you.

Talking points and romanticism.

Click to expand...

Perhaps that is what you call voter representation, I call it doing what you were elected to do.

So far you haven't presented any real evidence and have again lobbed on to the majority = right diatribe.

How Utopian you are.

Click to expand...

Evidence of what? The bill passed and has been signed into law.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 24, 2010

Catawba said:
Many benefits in the bill are the same as they have discussed for over a year now. I provided a post referencing the current benefits included.

Not all of them, they have changed many things.
That is why it's an entirely different bill.

Catawba said:
I am patient, I have been waiting for decades now for America to catch up with the rest of the industrialized world. This brings us one step closer.

How?

Catawba said:
You are presuming they will add the doc fix, and presuming they will not also add a way to pay for it.

I think I'll just wait on the facts thank you.

So if they don't add the doc fix, many of these doctors will quit serving medicare patients, leaving those patients waiting long periods of time to receive treatment.

Or they are going to do what they have done since 2002 (if I remember correctly) and do the doc fix again this year.

You tell me whats more likely to happen.

Catawba said:
Perhaps that is what you call voter representation, I call it doing what you were elected to do.

Again, your equating populism with something being the correct course of action.
It is a logical fallacy, might does not make right.

Catawba said:
Evidence of what? The bill passed and has been signed into law.

That it will do all the things that they have said it would do.

Premiums are not going down, even the democrats admit to it.
People won't have to get insurance if they don't want it, so they will still cost us.
It won't save money, because as well all know accounting fraud doesn't equal savings.

You seem to be happy that it passed without knowing if it will even work.

The Prof · Mar 24, 2010

Catawba said:
How is something simultaneously cut and expanded?

by enrolling millions of new members without paying for them, what a silly question

States Sue Over Overhaul That Will Bust State Budgets (Update2) - Bloomberg.com

You are opposed to rooting out waste fraud and abuse?

no, of course not, what a silly question

it's simply beyond idiocy to suggest that TWO THIRDS of all this expansion can be paid for by rooting it out

Obama On Health Care Concerns - CBS News Video

That would be because it was not in the bill.

i know the DOC FIX was not in the bill, that's why obama's claims that all this is paid for are so bogus

That is how it was decided to responsibly pay for the program without adding to the deficit.

10 years of taxes and 6 years of benefits is responsible pay-for?

LOL!

I know it is a departure from the norm paying for things instead of just putting them on the tab as in the past

actually, the front loading of revenues vs the back loading of pay-outs is how w-stands-for-what's-his-name "paid for" his medicare expansion

ie, it's not quite the departure from the norm president pieface promised during campaign

No one ever said pay as you go would be easy. It will be big transition for many, but reducing the National debt is that important.

a big transition is an understatement, if you don't go out and buy that really expensive PRIVATE product under the provisions of this bill you will be DEEMED more illegal than undocumented jose

Buy Insurance or Go to Jail? - The Note

Strictly BS charges.

the cornhusker kickback? the gatoraid exemption? the seiu sellout and bismarck bankjob?

hardly

President Obama wants side deals out of bill - Carrie Budoff Brown - POLITICO.com

White House backs down on health bill deals - BostonHerald.com

This was to appease the conservatives.

no, the public option was removed to allow the possibility of passage

it was opposed by way too many dems

it was dead from the get go upstairs

Democratic senator: Public health insurance option dead - CNN.com

"WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

*Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

*Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

*Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

*Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

*A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

*Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

*A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

*Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

*Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

*A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

*Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.

*Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.

*An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

*Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

*An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

*The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

*A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.

*The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.

*The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.

*A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

*Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.

*Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

*Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services."

i know, there's some pretty good stuff included in the 2700 pages

too bad it's not paid for

too bad he didn't go about securing some of these good things in a more responsible fashion

he wouldn't have had to THREATEN to DEEM it if he had

The Prof · Mar 24, 2010

how do y'all feel about the replacement of the public option with this mandate on individuals, already worried sick about their jobs, already way underwater in their house payments, already unreservedly reluctant to go to a restaurant or buy a new pair of shoes, that they suddenly have to purchase a prohibitively expensive product, else go to jail?

own up

YOU KNEW that provision was in this bill

Catawba · Mar 24, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
Not all of them, they have changed many things.

I didn't say all of them. But I did list the benefits of the current bill.

How?

We have will have a greater number of Americans with accessibility to affordable health care.

So if they don't add the doc fix, many of these doctors will quit serving medicare patients, leaving those patients waiting long periods of time to receive treatment.

Its all speculation. Perhaps if Doctors did that it might be the impetus for true nationalized health care.

Or they are going to do what they have done since 2002 (if I remember correctly) and do the doc fix again this year.

And what if they find a way to pay for it?

You tell me whats more likely to happen.

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

Again, your equating populism with something being the correct course of action.

Such is the nature of a Republic.

That it will do all the things that they have said it would do.

Premiums are not going down, even the democrats admit to it.
People won't have to get insurance if they don't want it, so they will still cost us.
It won't save money, because as well all know accounting fraud doesn't equal savings.

You seem to be happy that it passed without knowing if it will even work.

I know it will work better for more people than our present system, and that it will be easier now to tweak and amend so that eventually we might have what the rest of the industrialized world has, affordable health care for all its citizens. Does that make me happy? Quite so! It has more promise than our present system, which is unsustainable. Afraid I have to go with what is sustainable and provides medical care to the most people.

I think America has the capacity to provide for its people as well as the rest of the industrialized world.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 24, 2010

Catawba said:
I didn't say all of them. But I did list the benefits of the current bill.

Fair enough.

Catawba said:
We have will have a greater number of Americans with accessibility to affordable health care.

Says who, anyone without a pre existing condition won't get any help for 4 more years and that's assuming they even buy insurance in the first place.

That mandate, as far as I can tell, has no teeth.
You don't even have to pay the fine.

Catawba said:
Its all speculation. Perhaps if Doctors did that it might be the impetus for true nationalized health care.

That just won't happen, even the president has alluded that the "doc fix" will be done later this year, he just made a lousy excuse as to why it wasn't included in the bill.

Anyone honest, knows that it was excluded because it would blow the touted deficit reduction.

Catawba said:
And what if they find a way to pay for it?

If if's and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas.

That should of been done before they planned to spend.

Catawba said:
We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

I can't believe you support legislating things that cost as much as this based on "what if's" and "wait and see's."
No wonder most Americans don't live fiscally responsible.

Catawba said:
Such is the nature of a Republic.

That doesn't make things right.
If you truly believed in doing the right thing, you wouldn't support Democrats or Republicans legislating with bribery and deception.

Catawba said:
I know it will work better for more people than our present system, and that it will be easier now to tweak and amend so that eventually we might have what the rest of the industrialized world has, affordable health care for all its citizens. Does that make me happy? Quite so! It has more promise than our present system, which is unsustainable. Afraid I have to go with what is sustainable and provides medical care to the most people.

I think America has the capacity to provide for its people as well as the rest of the industrialized world.

Again your using talking points.

What happens when Republicans get control?
What if they want to amend it to reduce coverage?
How is this sustainable, there is no clear way that it will be paid for?

Sounds to me like you got hustled.

The Prof · Mar 24, 2010

Catawba said:
I didn't say all of them. But I did list the benefits of the current bill.

and you did an outstanding job, best i've seen, i think, anywhere

too bad so little of it's paid for

We have will have a greater number of Americans with accessibility to affordable health care.

absolutely

but unfortunately with insufficient funding---at the medicare level, at the state level, at the pay-for-docs level

listen to the governors, they're not lying to you

what is in this bill will truly and genuinely destroy state budgets already busted, california's, new york's...

Its all speculation.

speculation?

LOL!

that cutting doc pay by 22% in a year is gonna create LESS docs?

LOLOL!

well, put it this way---it's not gonna make for MORE

silly

Perhaps if Doctors did that it might be the impetus for true nationalized health care.

well, there's one way to look at a catastrophic shortage of medical care

and rather disturbingly revealing

And what if they find a way to pay for it?

what if fairies fly?

the point is---they haven't

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

LOL!

now, there's a real confidence builder

Such is the nature of a Republic.

true, and thanks for the 5th grade civics, i guess

I know it will work better for more people than our present system

my daughter knows it won't

so i guess we're even

and that it will be easier now to tweak and amend

tweak and amend?

LOL!

can you hear yourself?

so that eventually we might have what the rest of the industrialized world has, affordable health care for all its citizens.

and as we wave goodbye to the happy island of fairy tale dreams, we strain our ears for the barely heard refrains of lennon's airy imagine

with all up-to-date lyrics, of course...

Tapper · Mar 24, 2010

Yes so much better then being one of those "Christ" centric countries. Feeding the hungry healing the sick. "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me." and all that other stuff

I wonder what type of health care system we would have if those were our guiding principles.

Catawba · Mar 24, 2010

The Prof said:
States Sue Over Overhaul That Will Bust State Budgets (Update2) - Bloomberg.com

Everybody has different opinions about that. Here's another:
White House, experts: Health care suit will fail - Yahoo! News

no, of course not, what a silly question

it's simply beyond idiocy to suggest that TWO THIRDS of all this expansion can be paid for by rooting it out

I'll go with the non-partisan CBO's call on that.

i know the DOC FIX was not in the bill, that's why obama's claims that all this is paid for are so bogus

Why would you need to pay for something that is not in the bill?

10 years of taxes and 6 years of benefits is responsible pay-for?

Yes, that is what people do when they don't wish to add to their debt, they save up the money before they make a purchase. I know it seems odd for our country to be paying as we go, this but it is the responsible thing to do.

a big transition is an understatement, if you don't go out and buy that really expensive PRIVATE product under the provisions of this bill you will be DEEMED more illegal than undocumented jose

Why should be people with the ability to pay for their health insurance be able to skate and then we pay for their care when they go to the emergency room to be admitted. If you prefer we can go with either the public option or the single payer system. I thought they made better sense but the Republicans were opposed to that route.

the cornhusker kickback? the gatoraid exemption? the seiu sellout and bismarck bankjob?

Let me provide you with some updates ~

There is no longer a cornhusker/gatoraid deal.

"To their credit, the Obama administration and Congressional leaders opted not to end the Nebraska provision but to make it universal. The health care bill will pay for all Medicaid expansion costs until 2020, after which it will pay for 90 percent. But this likely would not have happened without Nelson’s original deal, and his subsequent suggestion that it be expanded. More distressingly, the outrage over the deal makes for a perverse incentive, one that may discourage future efforts of Senators and Congressmen to help the poor in their states and districts. Caring for the less fortunate is a sign of humanity, not corruption, and the Nelson deal’s critics should be ashamed of suggesting otherwise."
In Defense of the Cornhusker Kickback | The Harvard Crimson

no, the public option was removed to allow the possibility of passage

it was opposed by way too many dems

So no Republicans opposed the public option? Which ones supported it.

i know, there's some pretty good stuff included in the 2700 pages

Yes there is.

too bad it's not paid for

Not only is it paid for, it will reduce to deficit according to the non-partisan CBO.

too bad he didn't go about securing some of these good things in a more responsible fashion

Who is he? Its a congressional bill.

he wouldn't have had to THREATEN to DEEM it if he had

He???? Regardless, it passed congress by a majority without Deem and Pass.

Catawba · Mar 24, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
Sounds to me like you got hustled.

Hell no we can't, right?

That's one way to go. I choose the other direction.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 24, 2010

Catawba said:
Hell no we can't, right?

That's one way to go. I choose the other direction.

That's not at all what I said.

Are you one of those silly people that believe, it's either the Democrat's way or the highway?

Catawba · Mar 24, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
That's not at all what I said.

Are you one of those silly people that believe, it's either the Democrat's way or the highway?

I am one of those people that see no purpose in beating a dead horse.

The bill has passed already and been signed into law. If you have suggestions as to how the bill can be improved, then you should get them off to your congressman.

There are many improvements that are already planned for the bill. What are your ideas?

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

Catawba said:
Everybody has different opinions about that. Here's another:
White House, experts: Health care suit will fail - Yahoo! News

of course the challenge will fail, you're missing the point

the meaning of the story is the states are seriously screwed in that their burdens have been so greatly expanded with no funding, you know, an unfunded mandate

I'll go with the non-partisan CBO's call on that.

the cbo endorsed what the president said "on that," two thirds of all that obamacare contemplates is "paid for" by savings supposedly discovered and recovered from waste, fraud and abuse

it's at 4:45 of the link i provided, i have it memorized, i've cited it so often

Why would you need to pay for something that is not in the bill?

because it costs real money, silly

cuz it should have been part of the bill

cuz it's DISHONEST to take it out of the bill and say everything's paid for

hello

Yes, that is what people do when they don't wish to add to their debt, they save up the money before they make a purchase.

ok, but not many do in times like these

it's not the way the plan was sold altho it's a central part of the pay-for

the pay-for's are very important

hello

Why should be people with the ability to pay for their health insurance be able to skate and then we pay for their care when they go to the emergency room to be admitted.

they shouldn't

and a better president would easily be able to solve that problem without massively expanding already overstrained medicare and medicaid mandates while cutting their funding half a tril

he coulda accomplished these ends without forcing individuals who can't afford a product to go out and buy it themselves

without criminalizing those who can't or won't

a more able president would be able to fix this problem while paying for 10 years of benefits with 10 years of taxes

an honest president would be able to solve problems without breaking so many promises

If you prefer we can go with either the public option or the single payer system.

no, we can't

LOL!

nancy just passed harry's bill

what imaginary world are you living in?

I thought they made better sense

you really seem to think people care about your opinions

this isn't a game, harry's and nancy's obama-bill is real

but the Republicans were opposed to that route.

yup, still are, always will be

There is no longer a cornhusker/gatoraid deal.

well, actually there is, times fifty

and there's still all that sweetheart crap for dakota and dodd and baucus' asbestos and the seiu and the secret deal for phrma, which we haven't talked about yet

you see, i don't want to talk about my opinions, i respect that you could care less

it's just what's in the bill that's interesting

In Defense of the Cornhusker Kickback | The Harvard Crimson

that's a very weak link, the harvard crimson's defense of the kickback

i'd never use it

can you perceive what would happen to the despised prof if he ever posted so partisan an opinion piece?

So no Republicans opposed the public option? Which ones supported it.

you had sixty senators, a majority of 39 downstairs

it's a weak leadership that blames opposition for its failures

Not only is it paid for, it will reduce to deficit according to the non-partisan CBO.

true, but only based on half a T cuts to m and m while massively expanding both

only based on the payment of doctors a living wage, off budget

only based on the double counting of a quarter T, according to cbo

only based on bankrupt states magically picking up 200B of obama's tab without a lincoln penny of federal support

and quite a bit more

Who is he?

this is getting absurd

"he" is the president, the leader of the party, the prime mover behind health care, the guy at least 20 of the 219 did it for personally

Regardless, it passed congress by a majority without Deem and Pass.

you're starting to bore yourself

this bill is a pig

Catawba · Mar 25, 2010

The Prof said:
this bill is a pig

Thanks for your opinion!

NoJingoLingo · Mar 25, 2010

Crunch said:
Spoken like a true Lib.

My caption was much closer to the truth than the original. :2wave:

VanceMack · Mar 25, 2010

Coronado said:
It should be interesting to see how badly he will **** that up. He's set the bar pretty high with this health care debacle.

I said it two months ago when the tide of public sentiment was fully against the health care legislation and more, the bribes that were going on...

before the November election there will be at least a massive push to afford illegal immigrants and paroled felons voting rights.

Crunch · Mar 25, 2010

Catawba said:
I am one of those people that see no purpose in beating a dead horse.

The bill has passed already and been signed into law. If you have suggestions as to how the bill can be improved, then you should get them off to your congressman.

There are many improvements that are already planned for the bill. What are your ideas?

Yes, the bill passed....... with Billions of dollars worth of bribes.

The American people will speak this next November. If things go the way they look right now this bill will be fixed...... by de-funding it until it can be repealed in 2013.

Good job Dems. :applaud

ConservaBill · Mar 25, 2010

Catawba said:
Your point is moot. The bill was passed by majority vote.

You mean SIMPLE majority... big UNCONSTITUTIONAL difference!

... all the difference between oligarchy and republic.

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

cbs poll yesterday: 62% want the gop to keep fighting this bill

including FORTY ONE % of dems!

Poll: Most Want GOP to Keep Fighting on Health Bill - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

never fear, america, we will

and we will be rewarded immensely for doing so

indeed, our rewards will be so great and coast-to-coast wide, most of this chimerical contraption will never become effect

we lead IN PENNSYLVANIA by up to TWENTY POINTS

we lead in MICHIGAN by up to TWENTY POINTS

we lead in VERMONT by between SEVEN and THIRTEEN

we lead in CALIFORNIA by a HALF DOZEN

we lead in ohio, in wisconsin, in iowa...

RealClearPolitics - Latest Election Polls

all of these states except for the green mountains represent gop pickups

do you know what numbers like this portend?

do you appreciate the role these states play in presidentials?

do you comprehend the effect a party's control of a state capital plays every 4 years?

you don't suppose the people in all these states have been watching the health care debate, do you?

party on, progressives

represent, be proud!

Catawba · Mar 25, 2010

Latest update on Parliamentarian decisions ~

"During Wednesday's debate on a series of amendments to the reconciliation bill, Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin agreed with Senate Republicans that at least two of the bill's provisions do not comply with parliamentary rules for a budget reconciliation bill, The Hill reports (Rushing, The Hill, 3/25). Under the rules, all provisions in the bill must directly affect government spending or revenues.

According to the New York Times, one of the issues involved changes to the Pell grant program for college students as part of a broader proposal to overhaul the federal student loan programs.

Senate Budget Committee Chair Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said that the second problem is with technical language, which he said was mostly insignificant, and that the parliamentarian was reviewing a third issue.

Kate Cyrul -- a spokesperson for Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee Chair Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) -- said the problems would not affect the new health reform law or the student loans proposals and predicted that the House would pass the bill swiftly with only minor revisions (Herszenhorn/Pear, New York Times, 3/25).

Under an agreement between Senate Democrats and Republicans, debate on several remaining Republican amendments is scheduled to be completed Thursday morning before a final vote is called at about 2 p.m. ET, the Wall Street Journal reports (Hitt, Wall Street Journal, 3/25).

Democratic staffers said they are confident that the revised reconciliation bill will not face additional challenges in the House, where it is expected to receive final approval before the weekend, according to the Post (Washington Post, 3/25). Final passage in the House would clear the way for Obama to sign the bill into law (The Hill, 3/25)."
Parliamentary Issues Send 'Corrections' Bill Back to House for Revote - California Healthline

The Prof · Mar 25, 2010

yes, and gop parliamentarians forced the party in power to INCLUDE veteran heroes who've suffered amputations in the NEW TAX obamacare IMPOSES on PROSTHETICS and other medical DEVICES

obamacare---EXEMPTIONS FOR THE SEIU

AND EXTRA TAXES FOR WOUNDED WARRIORS WHO'VE LOST A LIMB!

Crunch · Mar 25, 2010

The Prof said:
yes, and gop parliamentarians forced the party in power to INCLUDE veteran heroes who've suffered amputations in the NEW TAX obamacare IMPOSES on PROSTHETICS and other medical DEVICES

obamacare---EXEMPTIONS FOR THE SEIU

AND EXTRA TAXES FOR WOUNDED WARRIORS WHO'VE LOST A LIMB!

Have they gotten coverage of pre-existing for children yet?

Barry thought that was included... it wasn't....... just goes to show he certainly didn't read his bill.

Goobieman · Mar 25, 2010

Bassman said:
12?? Try 38.

38 states, together, can do anything.

Goobieman · Mar 25, 2010

Catawba said:
The experts are saying it is unlikely the courts would overturn the Health care reform on Constitutional grounds as there is precedence:

You mean the expert you cited. Big whoop.

The federal government requiring people to buy something based on nothing other than their being a citizen, and penalizing them if they do not, is unprecdented - and, especially in ths case, is certainly without Constitutional basis.

Goobieman · Mar 25, 2010

disneydude said:
I can guarantee that the party of NO will oppose any reform of immigration.

Especially one that contains the typical liberal positions on same -- and I will applaud them for doing so.

Parliamentarian Weighing GOP Challenge to Reconciliation Bill

Catawba

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