Health Care Bill has passed

donc said:

Not sustainable? It has been in place since July 28, 1965 and it’s not sustainable? Private insurance companies subsidize Medicare!! Surely you jest? Medicare administrative costs are in the 2 percent range, while private insurance companies’ administrative costs is in the 8.9 percent range. :roll:

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Administrative costs are meaningless - you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Medicare is subsidized by private insurance. Medicare dictates how much they pay providers and providers charge private insurers that much more to make up the difference.

jallman said:

Oh well forgive me. If Roland Martin said it on ****ing facebook, well then that just changes everything. :doh

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I'm convinced.:roll:

jallman said:

Oh well if it's on ****ing facebook, that just changes everything, doesn't it? :roll:

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Seems Sarah Palin is on Facebook, and is running her "non-campaign" from there. But since you just dismissed it as irrelevant, I guess she is too.
Btw, it's a great grassroots source and vehicle...thought you just might like to know that, as if it would do you any good. LOL>

jallman said:

Oh well forgive me. If Roland Martin said it on ****ing facebook, well then that just changes everything. :doh

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More credible (and more intelligent) than any of your Glenn Becks, Limbaughs or Hannitys, that's for damn sure.

reefedjib said:

This thing that gets me is even if Dems lose the Senate and much of the House margin later this year, we can't do anything with Obama in office. In 2012, let's say more Dems go, can it be enough to overturn this turd? You better believe that there is no such thing as a filibuster anymore. It's all reconciliation now.

What will it take to overturn?

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Hyper-partisan talk like that seems to contradict your 'moderate' political stance.

Let me give an example of a political attack ad if the GOP tries to repeal this...

A senior citizen is standing at the pharmacy counter, and, as she starts to write a check to pay for her medicine, the price on the register goes way up... as the big bad GOP tries to re-open the medicare donut hole... "The GOP doesn't want grandma to get better..."

Ad #2 -- a child lies in a hospital bed, bald from chemo... The hospital staff is telling his parents they've just been dropped from coverage because of pre-existing conditions... "The GOP just killed that child... (figuratively) when the re-allowed insurance companies to deny coverage to children..."

I know there are some on this board and thread who learn their history and poli sci from Glenn Beck... but repealing a bill is a complicated manner, both procedurally and politically... There is language in the bill that makes certain things mandatory for a period of 10 years... it would have to be such a failure... We're talking prohibition-type failure...

aaronssongs said:

Seems Sarah Palin is on Facebook, and is running her "non-campaign" from there. But since you just dismissed it as irrelevant, I guess she is too.
Btw, it's a great grassroots source and vehicle...thought you just might like to know that, as if it would do you any good. LOL>

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I fail to see how considering a Facebook status as non-credible or irrelevant is comparable to considering a person non-credible or irrelevant.

The Prof said:

what you're saying would be true if this bill were passed by and approved by a majority of the american people

it wasn't

it was forced thru by 219 individuals, all members of the party in power, who were pressured beyond all measure by their leaders

we saw what the american people feel about this bill in massachusetts

in virginia and jersey

in all the polls

the american people, by and large, HATE this bill

and the INTENSITY of their feelings probably even dwarfs their huge numbers

look at the "supporters" and "defenders" of this bill on THIS VERY THREAD

even they don't really like it, they support it for the same reasons stupak and half the progressives did---to try to save this presidency from complete defeat

well, now they own it, and there will be hell to pay

look how obama today is out trying to SELL this bill, what's that tell you

he's trying to REVERSE america's perception of obamacare

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032103130.html?hpid=topnews

in the last month we have gone from a white house which arrogantly IGNORES the clearly expressed will of the american people to a 1600 pennsylvania that outright DEFIES us

this is all done at the party's peril

the prez may even get a small, short term bump in his approvals for the perception of his having gotten something done

but the house and the senate are gonna crash

and when junior learns that he's suddenly more illegal than jose just because our boy here has no coverage...

and the long term realization---YOU CANNOT MASSIVELY EXPAND MEDICARE AND MEDICAID WHILE SIMULTAENOUSLY CUTTING BOTH ALREADY OVERSTRAINED ENTITLEMENTS BY HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS

that's bedrock

this is what underlies the pessimism even of the obamites on this thread

THE CLAIM TO FUND TWO THIRDS OF THIS MASSIVE EXPANSION BY RECOVERING WASTE, FRAUD AND ABUSE IS AN INSULT TO EVERY HALFWAY INTELLIGENT AMERICAN

the negatives on this bill are huge and PERMANENT

americans are completely repulsed that their president and congress have so little RESPECT for their sentiments

i hear a-g-e-n-d-a in your observations about tea and cons, i don't think your remarks particularly apply to this exact situation, tho they might fit better elsewhere

my take

party on, progressives

the house and senate are MINE

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Those 219 "individuals" were not random guys off the street as the use of "individuals" implies, but Representatives, whose job it is in a republic is to represent us. We elected democrats in 2008. One of the principle planks of their platform was healthcare reform. They did their job. If their constituents feel they over-reached in the performance of those duties, they will be replaced.

Yes, the health care bill was a loser in the polls. However, if you dissected those numbers, you would find about 35% that did not want health care reform by the Democrats. The middle of the road and independent voters were upset that 1) the bill lacked bi-partisan support (which was not going to happen since the Repub strategy was to say "no" and not seriously participate), 2) had all of these "deals" (which we can blame some of Repubs for painting the Democrats into the corner on this in the first place, and 3) this just went on and on and on and on. The left hated the bill because it was so watered down. All said, most of the country wanted health care reform.

Of course, the opposition was never very interested in what the people wanted in the first place, otherwise the public option (60% support just prior to 1st passage) would be the law of the land today.

I know the Republicans were looking for a pony in the barn after 2008 and saw that pony in New Jersey and Virginia. Sorry, but electing governors in a state are not indicative of how people feel about the President. A governor of a state is provincial, not national. Of course, you fail to talk about the one national race where a Democrat one in a district that had not be Democrat in 100 years. Scott Brown, OTH, is a legitimate expression of discontent. But he is the only one.

I for one think the electorate will reward rather than punish the Dems in November. First, its going to be hard to make too much of an issue of success. The Repubs offered nothing, the Demos offered something and delivered (even if it was something less, it remains a landmark). Moreover, the people are tired of hearing about healthcare. If the Repubs want to be successful making an issue out of this they will have to re-frame the issue.

Though I expect the Repubs to make electoral gains in 2010, as is custom in an off Presidential election year, the chance of the houses flipping, particularly the Senate are quite remote.

aaronssongs said:

More credible (and more intelligent) than any of your Glenn Becks, Limbaughs or Hannitys, that's for damn sure.

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Again you are comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other. :doh

and just look at him now, president pie-in-the-face

after CANCELING his trip to the pacific so he could twist political arms on the capitol he's now gonna keep his myopic eye on THIS PIG OF A BILL until NOVEMBER

the people are screaming for jobs, they're concerned for their economy, scared to death of deficits...

and pieface is gonna keep up his coast-to-coast obamacare tour thru most of 2010

pathetic

Now they're claiming that a majority voting for something in Congress is anti-democratic.

Just how absurd can they get?

misterman said:

Now they're claiming that a majority voting for something in Congress is anti-democratic.

Just how absurd can they get?

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Care to elaborate or this a private secret??

aaronssongs said:

Seems Sarah Palin is on Facebook, and is running her "non-campaign" from there. But since you just dismissed it as irrelevant, I guess she is too.
Btw, it's a great grassroots source and vehicle...thought you just might like to know that, as if it would do you any good. LOL>

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Gotta drag Sarah Palin in on this, don't ya? :roll:

There should be a corollary to Godwin's Law about Sarah Palin.

misterman said:

Now they're claiming that a majority voting for something in Congress is anti-democratic.

Just how absurd can they get?

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I think they are largely referring to the fact that according to the polls, a majority of the public doesn't support this bill. However, I think it's kind of cherry picking considering that many on the right had the attitude that polls and the public opinion doesn't matter when Bush was making controversial decisions. Both sides are hypocritical.

how are you gonna massively expand medicare and medicaid while cutting them half a T?

misterman said:

That's what you think is essential about this bill? Really? Those are things everyone must know in order to debate?

How does the bill work? Describe the basics, in 100 words or less.

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That was just a part of the bill.

A large portion of people will have their premiums rise, although that rise will be offset by the subsidies.
Those not eligible for subsidies will see an average increase of about 10-13%.
Minimum benefits will be increased, which is why the costs will rise.

There is a $695 penalty(that will eventually tied to inflation/cpi/col, can't remember off the top of my head) for not having insurance, although there are temporary exemptions for religious beliefs, extreme poverty, etc.

That are a few more things without highlighting what is already known.
(Sorry for the late response, had to take my cat to the vet.)

how are you gonna find and recover half a T in waste, fraud and abuse?

hazlnut said:

Hyper-partisan talk like that seems to contradict your 'moderate' political stance.

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I don't know what is immoderate or hyper-partisan about what I wrote. Care to point it out? I was observing that reconciliation will be the law of the land, not promoting it. This bill is a turd.

but repealing a bill is a complicated manner, both procedurally and politically... There is language in the bill that makes certain things mandatory for a period of 10 years... it would have to be such a failure... We're talking prohibition-type failure...

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We'll see. The cost was hidden from us and all the tricks were used. It costs $200 billion a year. I agree that "repealing a bill is a complicated manner, both procedurally and politically".

how is forcing an individual to buy a product he can't afford any kind of expression of universalism?

Dr_Patrick said:

I think they are largely referring to the fact that according to the polls, a majority of the public doesn't support this bill. However, I think it's kind of cherry picking considering that many on the right had the attitude that polls and the public opinion doesn't matter when Bush was making controversial decisions. Both sides are hypocritical.

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Well, not exactly. Polls are still irrelevant when it comes to what is right, wrong, and flat out unconstitutional. The right used polls because the morons in D.C. seem to only care about their careers, so using the polling seemed to be the only thing they would understand. Apparantly they don't even understand that. Anyway, that would be why the polling was so heavily cited.

how did the public option turn into this perverse mandate upon individuals to go buy PRIVATE INSURANCE at $500 a month?

how are people gonna come up with that kinda money IN TIMES LIKE THESE?

not so simple as a presidential pen stroke

LaMidRighter said:

Well, not exactly. Polls are still irrelevant when it comes to what is right, wrong, and flat out unconstitutional. The right used polls because the morons in D.C. seem to only care about their careers, so using the polling seemed to be the only thing they would understand. Apparantly they don't even understand that. Anyway, that would be why the polling was so heavily cited.

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That is unfortunately very true.

LaMidRighter said:

Well, not exactly. Polls are still irrelevant when it comes to what is right, wrong, and flat out unconstitutional. The right used polls because the morons in D.C. seem to only care about their careers, so using the polling seemed to be the only thing they would understand. Apparantly they don't even understand that. Anyway, that would be why the polling was so heavily cited.

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Exactly.

Smart choices > popular support

The Prof said:

how did the public option turn into this perverse mandate upon individuals to go buy PRIVATE INSURANCE at $500 a month?

how are people gonna come up with that kinda money IN TIMES LIKE THESE?

not so simple as a presidential pen stroke

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Uh, if you can't afford it, the government will buy some or all of it for you. Read the bill.

The Prof said:

how did the public option turn into this perverse mandate upon individuals to go buy PRIVATE INSURANCE at $500 a month?

how are people gonna come up with that kinda money IN TIMES LIKE THESE?

not so simple as a presidential pen stroke

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But wait...you told me health care was dead. You told me that dozens of times. So there is nothing to worry about, right?

misterman said:

Uh, if you can't afford it, the government will buy some or all of it for you. Read the bill.

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Read the bill? Why? If they did that they wouldn't have anything to beotch about.