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Health Care Bill has passed

steve_in_mich said:
Hmm, you do realize that Medicare is unsustainable, right?

Private insurance largely subsidizes Medicare.

It may take a while, but we'll find that this is more of the same.
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Not sustainable? It has been in place since July 28, 1965 and it’s not sustainable? Private insurance companies subsidize Medicare!! Surely you jest? Medicare administrative costs are in the 2 percent range, while private insurance companies’ administrative costs is in the 8.9 percent range. :roll:
 
donc said:
Not sustainable? It has been in place since July 28, 1965 and it’s not sustainable? Private insurance companies subsidize Medicare!! Surely you jest? Medicare administrative costs are in the 2 percent range, while private insurance companies’ administrative costs is in the 8.9 percent range. :roll:
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Yeah donc don't you know...one day...ONE DAY...it will all come crashing down and this country will be a dust bowl in a depression all over again. You'll see...one day.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I understand you're anger, but you are smarter than this. Taxes are NOT forcing your neighbor to pay for others... and that's what you are implying. That's a weak talking point.
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Doubtful you understand my anger here Cap. I want certain politicians, their sycophants, and an entire political movement rotting in hell right now. Taxes are a necessary evil, they should have a discernable and provable benefit to be proper, nothing I've seen from a historical perspective coming from the twentieth century would pass the necessary and proper test. Check that.....we had a couple of wars in the beginning of the century that needed to be paid for, some infrastructural improvements, etc. But for the most part we became an entitlement society and lost our way. This bill just further empowered a government that is out of control.



Some, I'm sure is. It didn't go far enough with regulation, and may have gone too far with citizen control, without enough choices.
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First off, regulation needs to be cut to a core of safety/quality standards. We need appropriate de-regulation(not to be confused with simply giving 100% control back to crooks). Secondly we must have tort reform, 1/3 of doctors went on record as saying they will leave their practices the minute this becomes law. Third, yes there does need to be insurance reform, better ideas than this bill were shot down, and that is unfortunate, as an agent I will tell you that the things in this bill will drive costs up. Finally, the AMA needs to lose a lot of influence in legislative matters, don't know if you are a member or not, but they have historically advocated some positions that limited our number of physicians and specialists over the years, healthcare is not a natural market and we are seeing the effects of the controlled market not on it's best behavior.
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Remember that plan we had? I was telling it to one of my libertarian friends, and he said the same thing you did. I should be President.

Unfortunately, you're right. It was intelligent, bipartisan, and no one would have listened.
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That plan could work, and it actually fixes stuff. This bill is going to have disastrous results.
 
Well I am not overly thrilled about the bill being passed, but I do look forward to the riots and revolution I have heard so much about if it is passed. It will make for some good watching while I wait for the next round in the NCAAs.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Doubtful you understand my anger here Cap. I want certain politicians, their sycophants, and an entire political movement rotting in hell right now. Taxes are a necessary evil, they should have a discernable and provable benefit to be proper, nothing I've seen from a historical perspective coming from the twentieth century would pass the necessary and proper test. Check that.....we had a couple of wars in the beginning of the century that needed to be paid for, some infrastructural improvements, etc. But for the most part we became an entitlement society and lost our way. This bill just further empowered a government that is out of control.



First off, regulation needs to be cut to a core of safety/quality standards. We need appropriate de-regulation(not to be confused with simply giving 100% control back to crooks). Secondly we must have tort reform, 1/3 of doctors went on record as saying they will leave their practices the minute this becomes law. Third, yes there does need to be insurance reform, better ideas than this bill were shot down, and that is unfortunate, as an agent I will tell you that the things in this bill will drive costs up. Finally, the AMA needs to lose a lot of influence in legislative matters, don't know if you are a member or not, but they have historically advocated some positions that limited our number of physicians and specialists over the years, healthcare is not a natural market and we are seeing the effects of the controlled market not on it's best behavior.
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Which Wars?
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I am still trying to figure out how the government will save money on me. My refusing to cover myself or pay a fine will result in them having to pay a whole lot more to house, feed, and guard me in jail. :2wave:
 
Lerxst said:
Yeah donc don't you know...one day...ONE DAY...it will all come crashing down and this country will be a dust bowl in a depression all over again. You'll see...one day.
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So what do you think of that link I gave you Lerxst? There is a section or two dedicated specifically to the credits you would receive depending on your size and scope of a company, as well as penalties if somehow providing insurance were to become unaffordable as an employer.

as Harry Guerrilla said long ago in this thread, supporters need to show how they think this bill will help rather than just believing it will. All i have seen thus far is that "it will make everybody healthier", with nothing to back that up substantially.

IMO, the root cause of health problems in this country(or the majority of them) come from lifestyle choices rather than this perceived lack of healthcare access. This bill, and I am sure the supplemental ones to follow do not adequetly address this. Much like our pharma companies(whom I disdain), we have treated the symptoms of health issues in this country rather than found a cure.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm pretty sure they were.

That's why those cuts will vaporize when they regain control.
Have no doubt that republicans will do the same exploiting that democrats do.
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True dat.........
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm pretty sure they were.

That's why those cuts will vaporize when they regain control.
Have no doubt that republicans will do the same exploiting that democrats do.
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So republicans will cut programs they enacted for what reason?

They dont like the programs they brought into effect, and if so why on earth did they bring them into effect

I understand that in 2005 American senior citizens were coming to Canada to get cheaper drugs as one of the motivations, and I dont see that changing anytime soon
 
I am wondering how an unemployed homeless man is going to pay the fine etc? Are we going to start locking up people for not having medical insurance????
 
WWI and WWII. Korea and 'Nam were unnecessary, as was "The War on Drugs".

Edit- I have no idea how this double posted.
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
So republicans will cut programs they enacted for what reason?

They dont like the programs they brought into effect, and if so why on earth did they bring them into effect

I understand that in 2005 American senior citizens were coming to Canada to get cheaper drugs as one of the motivations, and I dont see that changing anytime soon
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Bad wording, sorry.

They will restore the cuts.
 
IMO, the root cause of health problems in this country(or the majority of them) come from lifestyle choices rather than this perceived lack of healthcare access.
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Everybody dies.
And nobody goes healthy into the grave.
Breathing- being born- is the lifestyle choice that eventually kills us all.
There's nobody who doesn't need health care, not even a thin, non-drinking, non-smoking vegetarian like me.
There's nobody who doesn't get sick.
And there's nobody who won't eventually become a lot worse, if they aren't able to see a doctor and get treatment for their illnesses while they're still treatable.
 
With all the fact-check sites, and all the breakdowns of the bill that are out there and available to anyone interested in this issue, it is absolutely astounding that there are still people who actually believe this bill represents socialism or a government take-over...

It just shows you want an effective job the GOP has done with misinformation and negative spin and what a piss-poor job the Dems have done on selling the bill to moderates and independents...

I encourage anyone who really wants to know what's in this bill to find some honest conservative sources, some honest liberal sources, and some objective breakdowns and read them ALL.

If you're only getting your news from Fox you're handicapping yourself in the same way someone who only watches MSNBC and reads Mother Jones...

As a reasonable, logical person I know:

(1) The people who wrote this legislation believe it will be effective in solving many complicated health policy problems. In other words, they would not set out to write policy that would fail or bring down the country.

(2) The Dems that voted on this are putting themselves at risk, Politically speaking, given the current division in the country on this issue. I can not believe that entire party would commit political suicide, they must believe there is potential for success here.

(3) Given the current mood in the country and the timeline for the bill to kick in, a 'No' vote is a pretty safe vote for Republicans.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Have trust in me, those cuts will vaporize when republicans get control.
That is their #1 pander group.
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That is what bothers me because I support these cuts and it is what makes the bill sustainable. Medicare advantage has been shown to be more expensive than traditional medicare.

At least the "donut hole" got closed. I feel the multitude of insurance plans for this only worked to confuse people rather than hold costs down.
 
LaMidRighter said:
WWI and WWII. Korea and 'Nam were unnecessary, as was "The War on Drugs".
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WW1 was unnecessay from a US point of view. It served no US interests.

WW2 given the US was attacked at Pearl Habour (brought on by the US embargo on Japan) meant it had little choice but to act

Korea not necessary for the US to fight, nor Vietnam

Afghanistan, as the country did harbour the group that attacked it on 9/11 it had little choice but to go to war, how it fought it is another story (ie nation building or not)

Iraq, unnecessary and unneeded, Iraq did not attack the US or present any sort of threat to the US to justify it
 
1069 said:
Everybody dies.
And nobody goes healthy into the grave.
Breathing- being born- is the lifestyle choice that eventually kills us all.
There's nobody who doesn't need health care, not even a thin, non-drinking, non-smoking vegetarian like me.
There's nobody who doesn't get sick.
And there's nobody who won't eventually become a lot worse, if they aren't able to see a doctor and get treatment for their illnesses while they're still treatable.
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We are talking about cost control here. The reason health care costs so much, no matter who foots the bill as a third party payer, an individual, or contributing employer, is because of lifestyle choices.

Using your logic, everybody dies, so why should we bother with healthcare at all? You can't save lives in the end.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Doubtful you understand my anger here Cap. I want certain politicians, their sycophants, and an entire political movement rotting in hell right now. Taxes are a necessary evil, they should have a discernable and provable benefit to be proper, nothing I've seen from a historical perspective coming from the twentieth century would pass the necessary and proper test. Check that.....we had a couple of wars in the beginning of the century that needed to be paid for, some infrastructural improvements, etc. But for the most part we became an entitlement society and lost our way. This bill just further empowered a government that is out of control.
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We are very different, philosophically, on this, LMR. I support most social programs as a necessary evil so that society does not crumble. I do not support social darwinism, which to me, is the opposite. How we take care of the weakest and neediest members of our society, defines our society. I do think a lot of these social programs need streamlining and a lot of reform. But society has modernized and changed dramatically from the 19th century. And government needs to change with society.



First off, regulation needs to be cut to a core of safety/quality standards. We need appropriate de-regulation(not to be confused with simply giving 100% control back to crooks).
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I don't agree. Increased regulation needs to occur, not only around safety/quality, but around efficiency and abuses. The industry needs HUGE reforms.

Secondly we must have tort reform, 1/3 of doctors went on record as saying they will leave their practices the minute this becomes law.
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I agree completely with the first sentence. The second I think is doctors being over dramatic. Not going to happen.

Third, yes there does need to be insurance reform, better ideas than this bill were shot down, and that is unfortunate, as an agent I will tell you that the things in this bill will drive costs up.
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Yes, reforms that could have been put in place, weren't. As far as costs go, I think we'll see some slight increases. Unsure if it will be more than that.

Finally, the AMA needs to lose a lot of influence in legislative matters, don't know if you are a member or not, but they have historically advocated some positions that limited our number of physicians and specialists over the years, healthcare is not a natural market and we are seeing the effects of the controlled market not on it's best behavior.
Click to expand...

The insurance industry needs to lose a lot of influence in legislative matters. I may not agree with some of the things that the AMA advocates (and no, I am not a member), but it's a drop in the bucket compared to insurance abuses that I have encountered.
 
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