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Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Absolute hogwash.

Is there reasons why someone can choose to not say the pledge that make that act patriot. Simply saying "those that don't say it are Just as patriotic" is absolute bull****.

I should have clarified. Obviously, it depends on the person's reasons for not saying it. If they aren't saying it because they hate this country then they obviously don't give a rat's ass or recognize the fact that they are able to do so because of our freedoms in this country.

Patriotic is the embodying in action of patriotism. Patriotism is a the devoted love, support, and defense of ones country or national loyalty.

Which is precisely why I fail to see how choosing not to recite some words somehow makes one unpatriotic or less patriotic than those who choose to say those words. Personally, I find the words to be generic. You can recite them all day long, but if you don't actually feel what you are saying or find it boring and archaic, it doesn't really matter whether you say them or not, does it?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

You're wasting your keystrokes.

If folks like EgoffTib aren't socialized and feel like a part of American culture, then there's nothing you can do over this forum in a few posts to alter that.

They think the pledge is just dead words, which demonstrates that they don't belong here. You won't be able to make them change.

So, because I don't like the Pledge and I think it's asinine, I don't belong in America? :lol:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's how they would have handled it in Nazi Germany.

Source on this claim?

Oh thats right. Its just a knee jerk reaction to anyone thinking saying the pledge is a good thing for kids :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

So, because I don't like the Pledge and I think it's asinine, I don't belong in America?

That's exactly correct.

If you don't accept the symbols and ideals of a group, you don't belong in that group. This true regardless of the group in question.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's exactly correct.
Well that sure is an interesting opinion you have got there. :2wave:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Children should because children are citizens.

They need to be taught that having the freedom to refuse to say the pledge is better than having explosives strapped to them in the name of Alah.

The very fact that this student has the protected right not to say the pledge if she doesn't want to is by itself reason enough for her to do it.

Yeah, because those extremists force their kids to do what they want, not giving the kids any freedom to make the decision for themselves, in an attempt to indoctrinate them with unquestioning loyalty to their country!

Whereas here in America, when we make kids say the pledge... um... wait a minute...
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Well that sure is an interesting opinion you have got there. :2wave:

= dismissal tactic because you can't debate the point :2wave:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Here's my question to a bunch of people in here....

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?

Yes, but because it was expected of me to chant. I was fairly cynical at an early age. It was just a school, certainly no better than any other school out there.

Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?

No. I was never into the whole sports thing. Plus, our team sucked.

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?

Nope.

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?

I only celebrate holidays with my family because it is important to them and they would like me to be there. If I had kids it I would do it for them. If my family didn't care about the holidays I would gladly sit it out.

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?

I sing along with it because it's expected of me. They are meaningless words to me. Again, using these things as a measuring stick for patriotism is wrong, in my opinion. Anyone can sing along to a song, recite some words, etc. It doesn't make one more or less of a patriot.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

= dismissal tactic because you can't debate the point :2wave:

You didn't make an argument. You merely expressed your opinion. How am I to respond? By telling you I think your opinion is wrong and mine is right? :lol:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

They think the pledge is just dead words, which demonstrates that they don't belong here. You won't be able to make them change.

Not me! I think the pledge is very meaningful to me (except the "under God" part). I say it whenever the occasion calls for it, and I mean it.

But a pledge that someone forces you to say is absolutely meaningless.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Source on this claim?

Oh thats right. Its just a knee jerk reaction to anyone thinking saying the pledge is a good thing for kids :roll:

Hey Einstein. I was addressing this comment:

"The kid shoulda got an asswhipping instead. I think that would have been more effective."

Beating someone for not repeating some words is exactly how the Nazis did handle these things. Source? Read up on the Nazis.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

So everyone who didn't say the pledge before it existed didn't belong in America either?
Of course. Everyone knows the Pledge is the only thing that determines whether or not you belong in America. :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

So everyone who didn't say the pledge before it existed didn't belong in America either?

= moving the goal posts; we're talking about here and now and yes the pledge does exist.

If you don't accept the Swastika, 1488 and Arian purity you don't belong in the Nazi party. If you don't accept the coat hanger and "my body my choice" you don't belong in a pro-choice crowd. If you don't accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster and wear a pirate costume you don't belong in Pastapherianism.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Not me! I think the pledge is very meaningful to me (except the "under God" part). I say it whenever the occasion calls for it, and I mean it.

But a pledge that someone forces you to say is absolutely meaningless.

I absolutely agree.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's exactly correct.

If you don't accept the symbols and ideals of a group, you don't belong in that group. This true regardless of the group in question.

Not accepting the symbols doesn't mean that you don't accept the ideals. I love this country and feel very fortunate to be here considering the freedoms that we have here that so many don't have. So because I don't say the pledge because I think the words are generic, I somehow don't belong here? Give me a break. :roll:

Considering that we have a choice not to participate in these things, I'd say we absolutely belong here. The fact that you think we don't because we don't follow some blind nationalist rituals says to me that you don't really agree with the ideals that this country stands behind.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

= moving the goal posts; we're talking about here and now and yes the pledge does exist.

If you don't accept the Swastika, 1488 and Arian purity you don't belong in the Nazi party. If you don't accept the coat hanger and "my body my choice" you don't belong in a pro-choice crowd. If you don't accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster and wear a pirate costume you don't belong in Pastapherianism.

You said that those who do not recite "The Pledge" do not belong here.

The pledge was created in 1892 so those who lived before that did not belong here.
I set no goal post, just showing you that you have to exclude even the people who found the country because there was no pledge then.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Yeah, because those extremists force their kids to do what they want, not giving the kids any freedom to make the decision for themselves, in an attempt to indoctrinate them with unquestioning loyalty to their country!

Whereas here in America, when we make kids say the pledge... um... wait a minute...

No one's talking about forcing anyone to say anything :confused:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I don't get your point:confused:

That some of the above things...like a schools fight song or colors...are the same thing on a smaller scale. They are both there for the exact same reason. To ingrain a sense of kinship between members of a group (citizens in the case of the pledge, students/alumnus in teh case of the school) which otherwise likely have great differences between them, tieing them to the over arching organization of which they're identifying with and tieing themselves to.

I learned "Hail to the Redskins" when I was 6 years old and been a Redskins fan my whole life. Yet I still think the owner of the team is an idiot, think our integration history is horrible, and we make mistakes. Yet somehow if I grew up saying the Pledge of Alliegance I'm a brain washed fool that thinks America is perfect.

I guess my father was a poor parent and an authoratarian, having me down there with him watching games singing the fight song after every score before I really even new all the rules of football or all the GOOD history surrounding the team. What a bastard he was, brain washing a poor child.

My Fraternity had a specific small ritural (fancy greek term for tradition really) done befor every meeting, that essentially just reiterated our dedication to the Fraternity's founding principles. Again, every chapter of a fraternities meetings are likely going to be different based on the various types of people at each and the locations they're found...but there was that one common bond that any member of my frat could go to another and instantly find some kinship in the sharing of our devotion to the fraternity and its principles.

The other half of it is the whole "meaningless antiquated tradition" thing. Few people celebrate St Patrick's Day for anything that has to do with the meaning behind the holiday, at least in this country. They mostly just use it as an excuse to drink. Should they be lambasted against and insulted for participating in such an antiquated ritural? Dying eggs and hiding ones with candy in it has nothing to do with the spiritual side of easter. If you raise your children doing just the secular portion, with the holiday having no meaning to you, are you simply indoctrinating your child into a holiday they don't even know the reasons for? Are you a bad parent if you just introduce Easter to your kids, without them knowing the reasons or things behind it, and teaching the kids through it how its fun and entertaining. I mean, you're not letting them know the full story and get the full history and decide for themselves...and apparently that's enough to condemn the saying of the pledge at schools.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

You said that those who do not recite "The Pledge" do not belong here.

What I said was:

They think the pledge is just dead words, which demonstrates that they don't belong here. You won't be able to make them change.

Notice the word "recite" is not even in that post? We can tell by matching the letters composing "recite" with the letters composing each of the words in that quote and observe that word's absence. Therefore, we know I never said any such thing as you claim. You're making **** up now, which demonstrates dishonesty.

One might disagree with the pledge in some fashion and not recite it, but to think it's nothing but dead words is not even disagreement. It's detachment.

The pledge was created in 1892 so those who lived before that did not belong here.
I set no goal post, just showing you that you have to exclude even the people who found the country because there was no pledge then.

Please give an example of one such person who thought the pledge was nothing but empty, generic words before the pledge was written.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Not accepting the symbols doesn't mean that you don't accept the ideals. I love this country and feel very fortunate to be here considering the freedoms that we have here that so many don't have. So because I don't say the pledge because I think the words are generic, I somehow don't belong here?

Not because you disagree and do not recite, but because you think the words are generic; that's correct, you don't belong in this country. Perhaps Iran would be more to your liking.

Considering that we have a choice not to participate in these things, I'd say we absolutely belong here. The fact that you think we don't because we don't follow some blind nationalist rituals says to me that you don't really agree with the ideals that this country stands behind.

Again, I'm not talking about participation. You seem to be hung up on something I never said.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

What I said was:



Notice the word "recite" is not even in that post? We can tell by matching the letters composing "recite" with the letters composing each of the words in that quote and observe that word's absence. Therefore, we know I never said any such thing as you claim. You're making **** up now, which demonstrates dishonesty.

One might disagree with the pledge in some fashion and not recite it, but to think it's nothing but dead words is not even disagreement. It's detachment.

Nice edit add there. :lol:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Nice edit add there. :lol:

Keep an eye, I still have time left to edit further. Everyone knows about the 25 minute rule, there are time stamps and the Live Topic feature has been activated for this thread, so it's fair game.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

= dismissal tactic because you can't debate the point :2wave:

You didn't make an argument. You merely expressed your opinion. How am I to respond? By telling you I think your opinion is wrong and mine is right? :lol:

No response?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

No one's talking about forcing anyone to say anything :confused:

Depends on your definition of "force" I suppose. Some here have suggested that the kid get patriotism whipped into him, or that it is right that the kid be "educated" or punished in some other way.
 
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