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Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I did not say that directly. I was wondering what the students opinion of America was. Why would someone object to the Pledge if they truely love this country. But, you do have that option of not saying it, becuase of free speach and the Courts. I also agree no one should be forced to say the Pledge.

So are you saying unless people believe as you do we are ignorant?

Because some don't feel the need to recite some generic lines to show their love for this country. Many do it in other ways, and I can't think of a better way than to object to such an outdated ritual. Considering that freedom and independence is what we continue strive for, this should be kind of common sense. It's sad that some fall back on such silly nationalist views as if saying some words makes someone patriotic. It's absurd.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Only meaningless if you believe that.

They are meaningless. They are just words. What they mean to people on an individual is a different story, however.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Good explanation of the meaning of the Pledge. For those of you to young to remember this.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI"]YouTube- Red & The Pledge[/nomedia]
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

An apology is not a correction, it's the NEA with their hand up the principal's ass operating his mouth.

She wasn't damaged beyond what an apology can't fix, so it's all good.

I imagine the teacher would also get some kind of formal reprimand which we can't be told about for privacy reasons.

The girl goes back to class, life goes on.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Good explanation of the meaning of the Pledge. For those of you to young to remember this.

YouTube- Red & The Pledge

I know what the pledge means. However, his explanation only underlines the fact that refusing to say the pledge is just as patriotic as saying it, if we truly do stand for freedom and independence.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I did not say that directly. I was wondering what the students opinion of America was. Why would someone object to the Pledge if they truely love this country. But, you do have that option of not saying it, becuase of free speach and the Courts. I also agree no one should be forced to say the Pledge.

So are you saying unless people believe as you do we are ignorant?

The ignorance is people who think they can say for sure that someone who doesn't say the pledge must not truly love this country. That is ignorant, IMO. Just because YOU might not say the pledge in a case where you didn't love this country doesn't mean that such is everyone's reason for not saying the pledge.

At this point, I won't say it. I love this country. But, according to you, I don't truly love this country. :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I know what the pledge means. However, his explanation only underlines the fact that refusing to say the pledge is just as patriotic as saying it, if we truly do stand for freedom and independence.

Simple and beautifully stated!
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

They are words. Nothing more. Actions show patriotism.

True enough. Anyone can pin a flag on their lapel and say the pledge. Symbols like that don't equal true patriotism.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Yeah, true patriotism can only come from killing another with the purpose of promoting one's national interests.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Yeah, true patriotism can only come from killing another with the purpose of promoting one's national interests.
There are certainly people who believe that. That's the issue with patriotism: No one can accurately define it. Some people think it means doing whatever the government asks of you without questioning. Others, like myself, think that questioning the government is the most patriotic thing you can do.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Children shouldn't be pledging allegiance to their country. That's an adult decision.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I know what the pledge means. However, his explanation only underlines the fact that refusing to say the pledge is just as patriotic as saying it, if we truly do stand for freedom and independence.

Absolute hogwash.

Is there reasons why someone can choose to not say the pledge that make that act patriot. Simply saying "those that don't say it are Just as patriotic" is absolute bull****.

Patriotic is the embodying in action of patriotism. Patriotism is a the devoted love, support, and defense of ones country or national loyalty.

If you don't say the pledge because you think the United States ****ing sucks and is a corrupt force of evil, but your parents happen to live here or your job happens to be here so you're stuck here, then you're not being patriotic by not saying it. You could, though I'd disagree, argue that you're at least being in line with the Founders and true to some of their beliefs...but one could not say you're being patriotic.

If you don't say it because you're a snot nosed 13 year old that finds out he doesn't have to say it and you decide not to say it because you think it makes you look like a rebel, you're not patriotic for not doing it. You're not forgoing saying it because of some deep seeded respect for our right to free expression or protest and to show your point that you love this country giving you the ability to do it. You're not saying it because you're a snot nosed kid that thinks he's acting like a bad ass. That is not patriotic. (Which frankly, growing up, this was the most common reason I noted anyone ever not saying it)

If you don't say it because you think its mindless words that only deluded sheeple say and that you are so much smarter than everyone else and don't need to say that, that is not patriotic. You're not forgoing saying it out of some dedication and love for the ideals of this country, you're not doing it because you think you're so ****ing smart that your not going to lower yourself into taking part in a "mindless tradition".

If you don't say it because your religion says to put nothing above your god and so you feel it violates your religion, you're still not forgoing it because of "love, devotion, or defense" of your country, so its not patriotic.

Are those necessarily unpatriotic or anti-american? For the most part not really. One could argue it for some, particularly the first example, but for the most part it'd be no, especially with the last one. If anything they are apatriotic, they were done for reasons neither rooted in patriotism nor its opposite. They are rooted in entirely different reasons that has nothing to do with the country...be it their religion, social presentation, or intellectualism.

CAN not saying the pledge be JUST as patriotic? Absolutely! If a kid decides to prove a point to a civics teacher he disagrees with that freedom of speech is the most important aspect of our country, and as such he's not going to say it as an example of that, then yes, he's exhibiting patriotism by showing his love through this country through a political protest specifically to show his love for the country.

If a person decides they are not going to say it at the beginning of an event where they believe issues or law is going to be pushed or brought up that are against what they think is in line with this countries principles and they're not saying it out of protest to denote that they think the use of it is simply to hide the fact they're pushing unamerican ideals, sure, that could be JUST as patriotic.

But just saying, flat out, unequiviocally, its JUST as patriotic not to say it as to say it is riduclous.

Similarly...

One can actually say the pledge and not be patroitic when they're doing it. If they're saying it just because they're told and none of the words inspire, represent, or mean anything to them then yeah, its empty words that are just being stated, not a patriotic display. If a person is saying it because they have to and they actually hate America, its not patriotic.

Simply disagreeing with the government does not in and of itself make you patriotic. I absolutely hate this notion and its just frankly ignorant. Are the people who orchastrated 9/11 "patriotic"? I mean, they disagreed with America and took action about it....I mean, I guess someone could argue the founders would agree with that...they must be patriotic!

If someone doesn't vote because they're a lazy **** who won't get off the couch are they JUST as patriotic as someone that votes because they're choosing (kind of) to excerise free speech by not participating in an antiquated ritural such as voting?

If someone says "Screw the President. He f's pigs. I hate him" or "I hate this country, its the worst place in the world, it is pure evil" are they magically JUST as Patriotic as someone that goes "I disagree with our President, but I am thankful for the ability to say such and I respect the office" or "I love this country and the freedoms its affords us" because, hey, they were excersing free speech so that automatically makes them patriotic.

If no, then why does exercising protesting...regardless of your reason, intent, or what you're protesting...automatically make you JUST as patriotic as those that don't?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Children shouldn't be pledging allegiance to their country. That's an adult decision.

Children should because children are citizens.

They need to be taught that having the freedom to refuse to say the pledge is better than having explosives strapped to them in the name of Alah.

image001.jpg


The very fact that this student has the protected right not to say the pledge if she doesn't want to is by itself reason enough for her to do it.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

They are words. Nothing more. Actions show patriotism.

We should just ignore the constitution too. I mean, its just words that are written on paper. Who gives a **** about words. They're meaningless.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

We should just ignore the constitution too. I mean, its just words that are written on paper. Who gives a **** about words. They're meaningless.
They are. They're just dead symbols. It's what we do with those words that has meaning.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Right...

And stating those words (of the pledge) as you go through school creates a shared experience amongst all citizens and a common sense of patriotism and respect for the country that you live and the freedoms and principles, such as liberty and justice for all, of which it embodies.

CAN those words be meaningless when said?

Sure

The constitution can be meaningless words as well.

Just because it CAN be doesn't mean they should be used as such.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Right...

And stating those words (of the pledge) as you go through school creates a shared experience amongst all citizens and a common sense of patriotism and respect for the country that you live and the freedoms and principles, such as liberty and justice for all, of which it embodies.

CAN those words be meaningless when said?

Sure

The constitution can be meaningless words as well.

Just because it CAN be doesn't mean they should be used as such.

It certainly appears that you have your opinion and I have mine. :shrug:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Here's my question to a bunch of people in here....

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?

Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?

If you were religious did you teach your kids any prayers or political actions that you ahd them do (Catholics, did you teach your kids to cross themselves). Or did you discourage your kids from following religion?

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Here's my question to a bunch of people in here....

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?

Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?

If you were religious did you teach your kids any prayers or political actions that you ahd them do (Catholics, did you teach your kids to cross themselves). Or did you discourage your kids from following religion?

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?


I don't get your point:confused:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Here's my question to a bunch of people in here....

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?

Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?

If you were religious did you teach your kids any prayers or political actions that you ahd them do (Catholics, did you teach your kids to cross themselves). Or did you discourage your kids from following religion?

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?
You're wasting your keystrokes.

If folks like EgoffTib aren't socialized and feel like a part of American culture, then there's nothing you can do over this forum in a few posts to alter that.

They think the pledge is just dead words, which demonstrates that they don't belong here. You won't be able to make them change.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Here's my question to a bunch of people in here....

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?

No, school was not a good place for me.


Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?

No, pep rallies were great times to leave school early.

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?

No, I don't do "clubs."

If you were religious did you teach your kids any prayers or political actions that you ahd them do (Catholics, did you teach your kids to cross themselves). Or did you discourage your kids from following religion?

No, I don't teach my kids to follow any particular political belief, they can figure that out with their own observations of the world.

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?

I have to celebrate Christmas because my wife wants to but I largely don't care for it.
I usually don't do other holidays.

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?

No.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I don't get your point:confused:

I think I do.

Say you have a secret handshake because you're associated with a club. By doing the secret handshake with fellow club members, you're showing your loyalty to the club and it's a unifying experience.

He is saying that by saying the Pledge, you are unifying with those who are saying it with you.

Am I right Zyph?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Do you or had you sung your schools or a pro-sports fight song or chant?
When I went to Dodgers games as a kid, I used to chant "Go Dodgers" when it would pop up on the Jumbotron.

Do you or had you wore your schools or sports teams colors?
Nope.

Have you ever joined a club or organization that had a hand shake, a specific opening or closing of a meeting tradition, or something of the sort?
I've been to church, where they usually close the service with a final prayer.

If you were religious did you teach your kids any prayers or political actions that you ahd them do (Catholics, did you teach your kids to cross themselves). Or did you discourage your kids from following religion?
Not applicable.

Do you celebrate holidays, meaningless traditions that are antiquated, that don't have any religious value to you?
Yes, mainly because it's a good excuse to go and visit extended family I rarely get to see.

Do you stand and remove your hat during the national anthem, or sing along with it?
I stand.
 
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