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Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

A state is not a nation. They are completely different.

Well, if you want to get technical, a state is a geo-political designation which a government rules over and a nation is the collective body of people within a specific region that share a cultural identity and history.

Essentially, a nation is a social construct a state is a political construct.

What's your point anyway? That socialists don't believe in shared cultural identity or history?
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Children don't have enough maturity to decide whether or not they want to pledge allegiance to a country, or which country. Without that maturity their pledge is coerced. A pledge isn't a real pledge if it's coerced.

Roll modeling is not coercion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling children they should recite the pledge. There is absolutely nothing on this earth you can do to move me off that position.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Roll modeling is not coercion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling children they should recite the pledge. There is absolutely nothing on this earth you can do to move me off that position.
This doesn't come close to being an example of role modeling. Role modeling is leading by example, like when a parent recites the pledge and the child copies the parent. Nothing like that happened here.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

This doesn't come close to being an example of role modeling. Role modeling is leading by example, like when a parent recites the pledge and the child copies the parent. Nothing like that happened here.

Your post 163 was not talking about that teacher's actions for me to then call the teacher's actions roll-modeling.

You were going off on some over-generalized tangent.

Your average, typical teacher encouraging students to stand, salute the flag and recite the pledge by doing it themselves and giving positive support to others who choose to do so is roll-modeling and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Your post 163 was not talking about the teachers actions for me to then call the teacher's actions roll-modeling.

Your average, typical teacher encouraging students to stand, salute the flag and recite the pledge by doing it themselves and giving positive support to others who choose to do so is roll-modeling and there's nothing wrong with that.

Except where there is coercion by the threat of punishment for not complying.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Except where there is coercion by the threat of punishment for not complying.

/threadban

Your average typical teacher does no such thing, so your point is invalid.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Your average, typical teacher encouraging students to stand, salute the flag and recite the pledge by doing it themselves and giving positive support to others who choose to do so is roll-modeling and there's nothing wrong with that.
That isn't role modeling. Role modeling is when you set an example without actually telling anyone what to do.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Except where there is coercion by the threat of punishment for not complying.
In fairness to Jerry, we were having a more general discussion about the Pledge in schools where there is no punishment.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

If those words are meaningless then surely no one should have a problem reciting them.

I find religion meaningless. Does that mean I should have no problem going to church anyways? No. Because I refuse to do things I find meaningless.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

So...a hypothetical...

If the child had been escorted out of the class because she was wearing a "God Bless America" T-Shirt, or a "Its a BABY, not a CHOICE" T-shirt...would people still be taking the same sides and positions?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

If those words are meaningless then surely no one should have a problem reciting them.
Then surely you would have no problem reciting meaningless words all the time, every day? I mean, who cares, right? :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I find that the American right has a fixation with rituals. I honestly do not get it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen with the left but the right has an almost absolute monopoly on American ritualism.

If you do not salute the flag, you're not American enough. If you do not own a shirt with an American flag on it, you're not American enough. If you do not eat unhealthy and greasy ass food on a daily basis, you're not American enough. If you do not own some monstrosity of a truck and the most expensive store you know is not Wal-Mart, you're not American enough. It is quite ridiculous.

The pledge of allegiance is just one more of these rituals. Things so many Americans do and push through our heads to feel better about themselves. Oh the audacity of not saying the pledge! You hate America! No. Maybe I find your rituals to be ridiculous? Maybe I'd rather demonstrate my love for my country by being a law abiding citizen or serving in the armed forces or helping out my community. But that is never good enough for these falsely patriotic Americans.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Didn't read all of the thread, but kids should NOT be forced to pledge allegiance to something they cannot comprehend. Not to mention their inability to comprehend what "pledging allegiance" even means in its own right.

No one, no where, no-how should EVER be forced to pledge allegiance to anyone or anything. Such a notion goes against everything this country stands for. Forcing a child to pledge allegiance is the biggest slap in the face there is to all who fought and died for FREEDOM and choice.

There is no need for pledging allegiance anyway. Either they love the country, or they do not, or they don't know. Regardless of which it is, citing some words like a robot isn't going to help anything.

That teacher should be reprimanded and suspended.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

What is the point of pledging? I said my marriage vows in October 1998. Do I need to say them on a regular basis to show my allegience to my husband?

Exactly. You show your love and devotion by actions, not reciting some words like a robot. That is how it should be.

And if he required you to recite some pledge on a daily basis in order to reaffirm your dedication to him, I would imagine most people would find that quite tyrannical and insecure. Not to mention sad and pathetic.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

There is no need for pledging allegiance anyway.

Of course there is, that's just stupid.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Exactly. You show your love and devotion by actions, not reciting some words like a robot. That is how it should be.

Some of us recite the pledge with feeling, and in that way reciting the pledge is one such action you speak of.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Of course there is, that's just stupid.
Okay, I'll bite: What need is satisfied by reciting the pledge?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

/threadban

Your average typical teacher does no such thing, so your point is invalid.

The average teacher is probably more reasonable, but any teacher who is this obsessive about some ritual should be fired because their purpose is to teach, not enforce ideology.

If someone chooses to associate feelings to the ritual, that is THEIR choice, but others should not be bound by it.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Some of us recite the pledge with feeling, and in that way reciting the pledge is one such action you speak of.

And you recite it by choice. Big difference between someone being forced to mouth some words and someone choosing, of their own accord, to recite something that has actual meaning *to them*.

You can stand outside your home and recite the pledge day in and day out for all I care. When you start forcing others to do the same, that's when the line needs to be drawn.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Of course there is, that's just stupid.

LMFAO

Really now? And what need would there possibly be to force people to pledge allegiance to a country that's supposed to stand for freedom and choice? The need for hypocrisy?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

What is the point of pledging? I said my marriage vows in October 1998. Do I need to say them on a regular basis to show my allegience to my husband?

I remember saying it all the time as a kid and never understanding what it meant. We even had to say it in kindergarten. For years, I thought it was "one nation invisible under God."
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I don't think any kid should be forced to say the pledge but they should at least stand and be quiet..........

I went to a private school and I can remember one of the first things they taught us was the pledge and why we said it....I don't understand why any true American would have a problem with it........
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I don't think any kid should be forced to say the pledge but they should at least stand and be quiet..........

I went to a private school and I can remember one of the first things they taught us was the pledge and why we said it....I don't understand why any true American would have a problem with it........


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman]No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I fail to see why anyone concerned about freedom and choice would wish to indoctrinate children into patriotic ritual.
 
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