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Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Keep an eye, I still have time left to edit further. Everyone knows about the 25 minute rule and there are time stamps, so it's fair game.

Well you know exactly what I was responding to.

The pledge is an artificial construct created to push nationalism.
Anyone who has any personal belief to not recite any empty pledge, does not make that person less a part of their people.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Not because you disagree and do not recite, but because you think the words are generic; that's correct, you don't belong in this country. Perhaps Iran would be more to your liking.

Yeah, they are generic because not everyone expresses their patriotism in that way. We are individuals. Those words are not that all encompassing that they describe how all of us express our patriotism. This is especially true with the "under God" part. And don't pull that "Perhaps you'd like it better somewhere else," bs. I couldn't give a rat's ass how you define as patriotism or whether you think I'm anti-American or not. The fact is that I know that I love this country. Because I choose to do it in a different way than you doesn't make me any less patriotic. :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I think I do.

Say you have a secret handshake because you're associated with a club. By doing the secret handshake with fellow club members, you're showing your loyalty to the club and it's a unifying experience.

He is saying that by saying the Pledge, you are unifying with those who are saying it with you.

Am I right Zyph?

Essentially, yep.

I see two reasons for the Pledge.

First is the sharing of a common experience amongst all citizens (or well most citizens). A common bond. Just like I can walk into any Redskins bar...whether its in California, DC, or even Dallas...and likely hear, and participate in, Hail to the Redskins after a score (as rare as that is ;) ) and instantly feel somewhat at home, familiar, and connected. Likewise, a kid could go from one school and another and if nothing else feel that slight bit of normality by the commonality of standing up, putting his hand on his heart, and saying those words with all the other children.

The second is to instill at a young age a love for this country. I know, I know, some people dislike this and thinks its wrong. Personally, I do not. Some say that the pledge doesn't give any reasons. I disagree, it gives two basic ones...that this country stands for Liberty and Justice for all. Its basic, its simple, its not nuanced, but its a start. This doesn't mean that kids are going to be brainwashed to think that America does everything right. Doesn't mean kids are going to be brain washed that America can do no wrong. What it does probably mean is kids learn at a young age they are expected to be loyal to the country and the principles that it stands for...which as citizens I do not think is a horrible thing. There is a difference between patriotism and patriotism that goes so far that it becomes mindlessly extreme.

Throughout all paths of life there are commonalities done in groups to do those two things...to give members of the group a shared experience and to inspire pride/devotion/love/respect for the group. I don't see why somehow its horrible when its the country that its for but okay for everything else.

Hell...what is the wedding ring on a persons finger for but an antiquaited symbol publicly displaying ones devotion for another.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Depends on your definition of "force" I suppose.

I use the same definition everyone else who speaks this language is supposed to use, so I don't see room for misinterpretation.

Some here have suggested that the kid get patriotism whipped into him, or that it is right that the kid be "educated" or punished in some other way.

I've claimed on this thread that the student should say it, but that doesn't = force. I think students should recite the pledge, that doesn't mean they have to.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I use the same definition everyone else who speaks this language is supposed to use, so I don't see room for misinterpretation.

I've claimed on this thread that the student should say it, but that doesn't = force. I think students should recite the pledge, that doesn't mean they have to.

I agree. That's not force.

What made you think I was specifically talking about you?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I should have clarified. Obviously, it depends on the person's reasons for not saying it. If they aren't saying it because they hate this country then they obviously don't give a rat's ass or recognize the fact that they are able to do so because of our freedoms in this country.

And I dare say that the majority of people that do not do the pledge….especially in regards to school age kids…are doing it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with demonstrating the freedoms this country gives them.

Which is precisely why I fail to see how choosing not to recite some words somehow makes one unpatriotic or less patriotic than those who choose to say those words.

I agree with you about being unpatriotic. I don’t agree with you about being LESS patriotic. If someone is not saying it for reasons that have nothing to do with showing love, devotion, or respect for ones country and the person saying it is doing it for those reasons, that other person is showing less patriotism in that act then that person. Why? Because in one case someone IS showing patriotism and in the other someone isn’t showing any patriotism. Not showing Patriotism is not the same as being unpatriotic. And Some is greater than None, therefore one is being at that moment LESS patriotic. Does that make them less patriotic overall? No. But in that act they are.

Personally, I find the words to be generic. You can recite them all day long, but if you don't actually feel what you are saying or find it boring and archaic, it doesn't really matter whether you say them or not, does it?

To the first part, yes, you’re right, no real reason to say it. I’d wonder furtively though what about the notion of pledging your support for your country and for the principles of Liberty and Justice for all is something that you don’t actually feel. As to the second part, not really. What exactly is archaic about supporting ones country? What is archaic about the notions of Liberty and Justice for all? Just because the worlds are old doesn’t make them bad. I don’t see you arguing that the constitution should be ignored because it’s old. And in regards to the boring part…sorry, there is NOTHING patriotic at all about not saying something that is a national tradition because “its boring”. That’s not patriotic, that’s lazy. That’s no different to me than someone trying to defend why they didn’t want to stand and take off their hat during the National Anthem because “they were comfy sitting down”. Does it make them unpatriotic overall? No, but I think it is an unpatriotic act to have such little respect for your countries tradition to not stand up “Cause you’re country” and I think it’s a rather unpatriotic act if you don’t recite the pledge for no other reason than “its boring”.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I see two reasons for the Pledge.

First is the sharing of a common experience amongst all citizens (or well most citizens). A common bond. Just like I can walk into any Redskins bar...whether its in California, DC, or even Dallas...and likely hear, and participate in, Hail to the Redskins after a score (as rare as that is ;) ) and instantly feel somewhat at home, familiar, and connected. Likewise, a kid could go from one school and another and if nothing else feel that slight bit of normality by the commonality of standing up, putting his hand on his heart, and saying those words with all the other children.

Not everyone is a Redskins fan.

Similarly not everyone experiences a country the same way.



The second is to instill at a young age a love for this country. I know, I know, some people dislike this and thinks its wrong. Personally, I do not. Some say that the pledge doesn't give any reasons. I disagree, it gives two basic ones...that this country stands for Liberty and Justice for all. Its basic, its simple, its not nuanced, but its a start. This doesn't mean that kids are going to be brainwashed to think that America does everything right. Doesn't mean kids are going to be brain washed that America can do no wrong. What it does probably mean is kids learn at a young age they are expected to be loyal to the country and the principles that it stands for...which as citizens I do not think is a horrible thing. There is a difference between patriotism and patriotism that goes so far that it becomes mindlessly extreme.

Throughout all paths of life there are commonalities done in groups to do those two things...to give members of the group a shared experience and to inspire pride/devotion/love/respect for the group. I don't see why somehow its horrible when its the country that its for but okay for everything else.

That's pretty scary to me.

Pushing children to show devotion and love for a country they may not exist in the future.
Not to mention that a great many people have subjective definitions of Liberty and Justice, that no pledge could house under one roof.
Devotion and Loyalty are not good things in combination when your country can turn tyrannical.

I'm sorry but I feel no commonality with people I have never and probably will never meet and experience life with.



Hell...what is the wedding ring on a persons finger for but an antiquaited symbol publicly displaying ones devotion for another.

You have a commonality with this person because you have an intimate relationship with them.
The same can not be said for a whole nation.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Yeah, they are generic because not everyone expresses their patriotism in that way.

It is precisely because people might choose different ways to express their love for this country, because they're individuals, that I never, ever claimed that refusal to recite meant you don't belong.

There's a difference between declining to express in a certain way, and claiming that a certain way is invalid.

You are arguing that reciting the pledge is an invalid way of expressing patriotism because it's generic. You are making a claim not about your preference, but about the pledge.

As a civilian you might not proffer to salute the flag, and that's fine. That's your choice. Declining to salute does not mean you're unAmerican. However, when you go further than your choice and claim the flag means nothing, not nothing **to you**, but nothing period, that is in fact unAmerican.

Options can be valid even if you don't proffer them.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I agree. That's not force.

What made you think I was specifically talking about you?

You quoted me.

Quoting someone in a post is the equivalent of turning to them face to face and looking them in the eye while speaking to them.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

And I dare say that the majority of people that do not do the pledge….especially in regards to school age kids…are doing it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with demonstrating the freedoms this country gives them.

That is probably true.

I agree with you about being unpatriotic. I don’t agree with you about being LESS patriotic. If someone is not saying it for reasons that have nothing to do with showing love, devotion, or respect for ones country and the person saying it is doing it for those reasons, that other person is showing less patriotism in that act then that person. Why? Because in one case someone IS showing patriotism and in the other someone isn’t showing any patriotism. Not showing Patriotism is not the same as being unpatriotic. And Some is greater than None, therefore one is being at that moment LESS patriotic. Does that make them less patriotic overall? No. But in that act they are.

To the first part, yes, you’re right, no real reason to say it. I’d wonder furtively though what about the notion of pledging your support for your country and for the principles of Liberty and Justice for all is something that you don’t actually feel. As to the second part, not really. What exactly is archaic about supporting ones country? What is archaic about the notions of Liberty and Justice for all? Just because the worlds are old doesn’t make them bad. I don’t see you arguing that the constitution should be ignored because it’s old. And in regards to the boring part…sorry, there is NOTHING patriotic at all about not saying something that is a national tradition because “its boring”. That’s not patriotic, that’s lazy. That’s no different to me than someone trying to defend why they didn’t want to stand and take off their hat during the National Anthem because “they were comfy sitting down”. Does it make them unpatriotic overall? No, but I think it is an unpatriotic act to have such little respect for your countries tradition to not stand up “Cause you’re country” and I think it’s a rather unpatriotic act if you don’t recite the pledge for no other reason than “its boring”.

To me it's analogous to people who believe in God, but choose not to pray or go to church. Just because these people don't pray or go to church does it somehow mean that they love God less? I don't agree with that in the slightest. One doesn't have to recite something in order to express their love for something. People do it in different ways. They can feel love towards something without feeling the need to constantly express it. Not everyone gets the same feelings from reciting the pledge or singing the national anthem. Some people are more introverted, myself included. It doesn't make me less patriotic. Yes, to me they are meaningless words because not everyone gets the same feeling from them. Saying words vs. feeling actual love for something isn't even in the same ballpark to me. If you feel it and say the words and get something out of that, more power to you. However, not everyone is like that.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Not everyone is a Redskins fan.

Similarly not everyone experiences a country the same way.

You're twisting the analogy.

Every citizen of the country is a citizen of this country, just as every redskins fan is a redskins fan.

Some redskins fans may be die hard homers. Some may think the team never makes a good decision. Some redskins fans may be poor. Some redksins fans may be rich. Some may've grew up loving them. Some may've just switched to the team. Some may hate Dallas, some may hate all other teams, and some may not have a care about anyone else. Some may be black. Some may be white. Some may be old. Some may be young.

But one thing they generally all share (there's always some in any group that generally detach from the norm) would be that fight song. Its something that would combine all, even for a short time.

Similarly. Some citizens could think the US could do no wrong. Some could think we make a TON of mistakes. Some could be rich, some poor. Some democrat, some republican. Some black, some white. Some who can't stand the middle east, others that dislike all foriegners, and others who have great respect for foriegn countries. But one thing they'd all generally share would be the country they are citizens of, and the traditions of said country such as the pledge, the anthem, etc.

That's pretty scary to me.

Which doesn't surprise me and its going to just be a difference we're going to have. You are generally paranoid. You are the very definition of a hyper intellectual that thinks he's "Better" than everyone else and so much "smarter" than everyone else to be above such notions as believing perhaps that ones country is generally a good thing, or being proud of ones country, or being happy to be a member of said country other than on a simply rational level because to do so is to be mindless or foolish or in your mind seemingly unable to also be rational about it.

It is much, in my mind, to the love one has for a sibling or a lover. No human is perfect, yet we love these people all the same. We learn to love your mother, your father, your siblings from the time you grow up. You love them if they've messed up in their lives and done drugs, or if they cheated on a test, or if they were a bully when they were younger, and on and on. Does that necessarily mean you ignore their faults? That you don't try to fix their faults? That you don't learn from those mistakes? That you don't hold them accountable? No, it doesn't. It does mean you love them though and when push comes to shove, they are your family.

Personally, I view the country in a similar if albiet slightly more detached way. You think that's a bad thing, that we're foolish or scary for daring to have that kind of notion. To actually think this is a good country, to love this country, and to believe its a good thing for a child to feel as well as they're growing up. I don't, and in part because of the very ability that you have the chance to make your claims and say such a notion is scary.

I don't think its even unpatriotic for you to say its scary. I just think its rather sad and founded far more in your own belief that you're smarter than everyone else.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

It is precisely because people might choose different ways to express their love for this country, because they're individuals, that I never, ever claimed that refusal to recite meant you don't belong.

There's a difference between declining to express in a certain way, and claiming that a certain way is invalid.

You are arguing that reciting the pledge is an invalid way of expressing patriotism because it's generic. You are making a claim not about your preference, but about the pledge.

As a civilian you might not proffer to salute the flag, and that's fine. That's your choice. Declining to salute does not mean you're unAmerican. However, when you go further than your choice and claim the flag means nothing, not nothing **to you**, but nothing period, that is in fact unAmerican.

Options can be valid even if you don't proffer them.

I was referring to myself. Obviously these symbols mean something to some people. To say that isn't unAmerican to make a broad statement that these things are meaningless to everyone, it's just stupid and incorrect. I'm more introverted and the way I feel about something has more currency to me than a colored piece of cloth or some words to recite. I'm speaking for myself here. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I never understood the act of pledging. I mean, whats the point anyway?

Originally it was to sell American flags.

Now it's indoctrination.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

To me it's analogous to people who believe in God, but choose not to pray or go to church.

Ah, good choice. This'll make a great example

Just because these people don't pray or go to church does it somehow mean that they love God less?

Depends.

Why are they not going to church and praying?

Are they doing it because Sunday is football day and they're not missing the big game for church?

Do they do it because "church is boring"?

Do they do it because the beds warm and they don't want to get out?

Do they not bother to bless their meals simply because they feel its inconvient?

Personally, yeah...I'd say if those are you reasons for not goign to church and praying you probably are less devout, ie love god less. You're basically putting your comfort and convience above what you believe through your religion is your duty as a follower of that religion.

Now instead if ...

they do it because they feel that the only church in town feels more like a social club than a worshipping service, so you stay home and read the bible.

they do it because they feel organized religion has contorted the true meaning of the scripture

they do it because they feel that the interpritation of worship in the bible actually allows for a more personal form of worship, and so they choose to stay home instead

Then i'd probably say no, that doesn't make them less devout imho.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I was referring to myself. Obviously these symbols mean something to some people. To say that isn't unAmerican to make a broad statement that these things are meaningless to everyone, it's just stupid and incorrect. I'm more introverted and the way I feel about something has more currency to me than a colored piece of cloth or some words to recite. I'm speaking for myself here. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone.

That's exactly why that teacher was way out of line.

To agree with previous points, forcing someone to recite the pledge takes all the meaning out of it.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Ah, good choice. This'll make a great example



Depends.

Why are they not going to church and praying?

Who knows what their reasons are? Some people don't like group participation. Some people don't feel that any particular church expresses their views accurately. While there are plenty of denominations out there, there are hardly enough to cater to how complex people are.

Are they doing it because Sunday is football day and they're not missing the big game for church?

Well, obviously God hates football. :2razz:

Do they do it because "church is boring"?

Some do find it boring. Then again, the church isn't God.

Do they do it because the beds warm and they don't want to get out?

Again, the church isn't God.

Do they not bother to bless their meals simply because they feel its inconvient?

While some do find it inconvenient, it doesn't necessarily mean that they love God less. Some don't feel the need to express out loud, their love for God. Some people are introverts.[/QUOTE]
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's how they would have handled it in Nazi Germany.

Actually, it isn't, but I know history isn't a strong point of the Left.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Schools should not force people to say it. Its ridiculous and takes the meaning out of it and is counter to free speech.

Parents I don't think should, but they should be free to if they want. Just as they should be free to tell their kids not to because of other reasons even if the kid wants to. Parents are in charge of installing principles and values into their children and if they think its important for them to say, or not say, I don't think that should be our business.

I think its perfectly fine, and good, that in general the schools have kids say the pledge at the beginning of the day.

I don't think its unpatriotic to not say the pledge, but I do think that the vast majority of reasons people don't say it is not a patriotic act. Note, not patriotic does not = unpatriotic. Think of it like saying someone isn't elated. Saying their not elated doesn't mean they're depressed. Not being patriotic does not necessarily make one the opposite, unpatriotic.

I generally think its idiotic and ignorant to insult people for participating in a benign and long standing act that is part of the cultural tradition of this country.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Actually, it isn't, but I know history isn't a strong point of the Left.

Kind of like how staying on topic and avoiding lame partisan hack insults isn't your strongest point?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

You're twisting the analogy.

Every citizen of the country is a citizen of this country, just as every redskins fan is a redskins fan.

Some redskins fans may be die hard homers. Some may think the team never makes a good decision. Some redskins fans may be poor. Some redksins fans may be rich. Some may've grew up loving them. Some may've just switched to the team. Some may hate Dallas, some may hate all other teams, and some may not have a care about anyone else. Some may be black. Some may be white. Some may be old. Some may be young.

But one thing they generally all share (there's always some in any group that generally detach from the norm) would be that fight song. Its something that would combine all, even for a short time.

Similarly. Some citizens could think the US could do no wrong. Some could think we make a TON of mistakes. Some could be rich, some poor. Some democrat, some republican. Some black, some white. Some who can't stand the middle east, others that dislike all foriegners, and others who have great respect for foriegn countries. But one thing they'd all generally share would be the country they are citizens of, and the traditions of said country such as the pledge, the anthem, etc.

I have to disagree with this because you become a fan and aren't born into being a fan.
I view countries as what they are, temporary constructs.
Countries come and go, people that you actually make connections with is all that matters.

I will not make connections with 300 million people, that isn't going to happen.

Which doesn't surprise me and its going to just be a difference we're going to have. You are generally paranoid. You are the very definition of a hyper intellectual that thinks he's "Better" than everyone else and so much "smarter" than everyone else to be above such notions as believing perhaps that ones country is generally a good thing, or being proud of ones country, or being happy to be a member of said country other than on a simply rational level because to do so is to be mindless or foolish or in your mind seemingly unable to also be rational about it.

Labeling people paranoid when they have thousands of years of history to back of their arguments does not make for good arguments.

I do not feel better than anyone else in some ways and do in others.
I have weaknesses that I'm perfectly comfortable admitting to others.
I smoke and can't kick the habit because I am weak in that regard.

I find it foolish to cling to things that are not real.
Americans are not a uniform people, we all exist in different ways.
We all have different beliefs that do not conform to the founding vision of the country.
A pledge does not change that.

It is much, in my mind, to the love one has for a sibling or a lover. No human is perfect, yet we love these people all the same. We learn to love your mother, your father, your siblings from the time you grow up. You love them if they've messed up in their lives and done drugs, or if they cheated on a test, or if they were a bully when they were younger, and on and on. Does that necessarily mean you ignore their faults? That you don't try to fix their faults? That you don't learn from those mistakes? That you don't hold them accountable? No, it doesn't. It does mean you love them though and when push comes to shove, they are your family.

If they don't do anything to fix themselves and become a potential danger to you.
It's not wise to stay around them anymore.
That is my experience with extended family.

Personally, I view the country in a similar if albiet slightly more detached way. You think that's a bad thing, that we're foolish or scary for daring to have that kind of notion. To actually think this is a good country, to love this country, and to believe its a good thing for a child to feel as well as they're growing up. I don't, and in part because of the very ability that you have the chance to make your claims and say such a notion is scary.

I don't think its even unpatriotic for you to say its scary. I just think its rather sad and founded far more in your own belief that you're smarter than everyone else.

I value things that are real to me.
My wife and kids are real, America is just a place.

I mean how can I have a good relationship with my country when the majority of it's inhabitants ridicule my beliefs at every turn.
A lot of people are like this.
Marginalized and detached because they are different, not necessarily bad.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I still don't get why some of the biggest anti-socialists and anti-governemnt people are also the biggest supporters of the socialist propaganda that is the pledge of allegiance.

I mean, even if one is not up to speed on the history of Francis Bellamy and his political persuasion, the socialist underpinnings of mindlessly reciting prayers to a government symbol should be obvious.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Who knows what their reasons are?

They do. Come on Dr P, this is low ball. We're talking hypotheticals here. You weren't asking if it was okay to tell someone they are less devout, you were asking were they. This is assuming that its just a hypothetical and thus whether they'd tell us the reasons or not doesn't matter.

Some people don't like group participation

And if they honestly believe their interpritation of the scripture means you should give a day for worship, not necessarily having to do it at a church, no problem. If they believe the dictates of their religion is they're supposed to go to church, but they just don't cause they don't like group participation, then its not.

The first would be a choice based on their religious devotion. The second would be making a choice based on their personal comfort despite their political devotion. That by its very nature means youre being less devout.

Some people don't feel that any particular church expresses their views accurately.

Then again, this is an issue of religious devotion.

Well, obviously God hates football. :2razz:

Obviously :p

Some do find it boring. Then again, the church isn't God.

No, but many interpritations of the scripture believe that attending church is part of what's required if possible. If you're not attending it for reasons that have only to do with your own personal comfort, and not due to a legitimate disagreement with that interpritation of the scripture, then you're less devout. You're CHOOSING to care more about your comfort than about what the religion you believes dictates are.

While some do find it inconvenient, it doesn't necessarily mean that they love God less. Some don't feel the need to express out loud, their love for God. Some people are introverts.

I guess you could say someone could ignore scripture and still love god just as much. I guess you could revel in the fact you have tons of premarital sex, say "god damnit" and "jesus christ" often, steal from people, murder people, actively worship Vishnu as well, be exceedingly greed and a huge glutton, and still say they love god just as much as someone who tries his best not to sin. I wouldn't really buy that though.

I think its rather hollow if you say "I love god just as much as you, but I just think its okay to completely ignore tennets of the scripture that I believe are true because, frankly, its just more convient to me".

To put it a different way.

Would someone that willfully lies daily, knowing its a sin, but without any real care simply because it makes life easier for him "love god" in your mind as much as someone that does everything else exactly the same as that guy but doesn't lie on a daily basis?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I still don't get why some of the biggest anti-socialists and anti-governemnt people are also the biggest supporters of the socialist propaganda that is the pledge of allegiance.

I mean, even if one is not up to speed on the history of Francis Bellamy and his political persuasion, the socialist underpinnings of mindlessly reciting prayers to a government symbol should be obvious.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which is stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Ok - please point out what's socialist about it?

It supports liberty and justice for everyone - suggests God means something to you (which is the only thing I consider to be remotely controversial about it at all). And says you'll be faithful to your country.

Because that's what a pledge does - it's an affirmation of your loyalty and it briefly describes the basic core value of the country.

It's not left or right - socialist or otherwise.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I still don't get why some of the biggest anti-socialists and anti-governemnt people are also the biggest supporters of the socialist propaganda that is the pledge of allegiance.

I mean, even if one is not up to speed on the history of Francis Bellamy and his political persuasion, the socialist underpinnings of mindlessly reciting prayers to a government symbol should be obvious.

I don't really see how being "anti-socialist" or "anti-government" would disqualify support of people saying the pledge.

Lets examine this....

First, in regards to anti-government. It specifically is pledging it it seems to the United States of America, not necessarily the government. This is a nuanced difference but important to the conservative philosophy, since it seems aimed at them. The general conservative mindset is that government should be kept at arms length and given a skeptical eye, but the country should be respected and loved. The country, its culture foundation and principles, is different in essense than the government that represents it.

In regards to the anti-socialist aspect, again aside from its roots of who made it, I'm not seeing the socialist propoganda here. I don't see a push for everyone to share the burden amongst each other. Or that government is some kind of over arching diety. Or anything that usually gets blasted as being an extreme idea of socialism.

I'd be there with you in the hypocrisy of anti-government people if we were forcing people to have to say it. I'd feel the same way if it was illegal to not take of your hat during the national anthem. But that's not the case.

I think you're stereotyping by trying to tie the belief that government in general should have a hands off approach on peoples dailies lives and should be limited with the belief that somehow respecting or loving ones country and expressing that/ingraining that is bad.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Actually, it isn't, but I know history isn't a strong point of the Left.

Left? Because I believe a kid should not be beaten for not reciting an oath?

In August 1934 Hitler named himself Chancellor and President of Germany and subsequently instituted a loyalty oath to be required of all civil servants and government officials, including pastors and university professors. The oath read as follows: "I swear: I will be true and obedient to the F�hrer of the German Reich and nation Adolf Hitler, observe the laws and conscientiously fulfill my official duties, so help me God."[18] Barth was confident that, because of his public criticism of the Nazi regime, the oath requirement would be put to him in pointed terms. He was soon proved right.

On November 7 Barth was asked by the university's rector to take the oath. Barth had resolved that he would do so, but only if he could add a stipulation "to the effect that I could be loyal to the F�hrer only within my responsibilities as an Evangelical Christian."[19] He proposed his modified form of the oath to the Rector and was rejected. In his words, "My hour had come. I was suddenly suspended."[20]

Because of his refusal to take the oath in the prescribed form, Barth was tried before a tribunal. The prosecution argued that Barth's proposed amendment was unacceptable because the oath was intended to have "unlimited content" and, besides, "it went without saying that the F�hrer did not require anything that was against God's commandments."[21] While the prosecution was presenting its case, Barth was apparently not overly concerned. He spent the time composing a rhyme about the event ("Karl, we know, is hardly vile / And yet he has to go on trial") and skimming Plato, portions of which he insisted on reading to the judges.[22] As expected, the tribunal found Barth guilty.

The term Hitler oath refers to the oaths of allegiance sworn by German Wehrmacht officers and soldiers as well as civil servants during the Third Reich between the years 1934 and 1945. The oath pledged personal loyalty to the person of Adolf Hitler in place of loyalty to the constitution.

The death of 86-year-old Reichspräsident Paul von Hindenburg on August 2, 1934 removed the final obstacle to Adolf Hitler obtaining absolute power over Germany. Even before Hindenburg's death, Hitler's cabinet had enacted a law combining the offices of Chancellor (the head of government) and President (the head of state); Adolf Hitler would henceforth be known as Führer und Reichskanzler (Leader and Chancellor) and was both head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces. The day of the President's death, the cabinet ordered a plebiscite for August 19 for the German people to approve the combination of the two offices.

Germany's voters went to the polls and 89.9% voted their approval for Hitler to assume complete power over Germany. The following day, August 20, 1934, the cabinet decreed the "Law On The Allegiance of Civil Servants and Soldiers of the Armed Forces". (Gesetz über die Vereidigung der Beamten und der Soldaten der Wehrmacht), which superseded the original oaths. Prior to the decree, both members of the armed forces and civil servants had sworn loyalty to "the People and the Fatherland" (Volk und Vaterland); civil servants had additionally sworn to uphold the constitution and laws of Germany.

The new law decreed that instead, both members of the armed forces and civil servants would swear loyalty to Adolf Hitler
 
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