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Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Some very good points have been made on both sides. I think I'm in the middle on this one a bit.

I say the Pledge of Allegiance when I'm in a situation where it's called for. However that is basically out of tradition. I don't pledge my allegiance "to the flag." I pledge my allegiance to my country, one nation. I have an issue with some of the words in the pledge. But, I go through the motions of the tradition, not because I think it's mandatory or indicative of my patriotism or love of country, but because it's tradition and because I think it's well intended. It doesn't really make sense to me in literal terms, but it's like coloring easter eggs with my kids or putting up a christmas tree...I do it because it's a tradition and I am comfortable enough with it, regardless of how perplexing my take on it might seem.

I do not condemn those who refuse, that is their choice and that is what I think makes our nation great. We don't have to say anything we don't want to. I don't judge the patriotism of someone based upon some public display of rhetoric or execution of ritual. I've seen people get fighting mad over a flag burning and just shake my head. Symbols, allegiance to symbols, putting a symbol above someone's right to exercise free speech express their ideals...that's just backward to me.

Tradition is not sacred. The very fact taht some of you can get bent over someone burning a flag but are willing to stand by someone wearing a flag pattern shirt or headband or see flag bumper stickers tore up and covered in mud...it's just all too convenient for me.

I love my country, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But if I'm not loyal to a piece of cloth because it "represents" my country. I'm loyal to my country and want what's best for it...not some symbol. You can't disrespect a flag because it's an inanimate object. Logically it's foolish to pledge allegiance to a flag. That doesn't make sense in the least.

Anyway, this story is just saddening. However it's not an end to the world either. The girl should get her apology. She deserves as much respect as anyone else. And her decision to not partake in some ritualistic tradition is not insulting to anyone.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That would've been the respectful thing to do. Even if I was in a country like North Korea, I would stand for the national anthem if that was the custom.
Some of us are not amused by meaningless formalities. :shrug:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I think that is part of the problem......some people want all the benefits this country provides but they could care less about the country itself.......I can understand a child but adults should know better.......

Thinking it's stupid to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, day in and day out, doesn't make you any less of a patriot.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I think being forced to pledge your alligence to something you don't necessarily want to is a bit outrageous.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I think pledging allegiance to a flag is absurd anyway. Of course, there's no real harm in it, unless the flag speaks and tells you to do something :shock:. Of course it can't do that because it is just a piece of cloth.

Talking flags would creep me out though, especially if the flag had an English accent.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I think pledging allegiance to a flag is absurd anyway. Of course, there's no real harm in it, unless the flag speaks and tells you to do something :shock:. Of course it can't do that because it is just a piece of cloth.

Talking flags would creep me out though, especially if the flag had an English accent.


*cowers in a corner at the thought*
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

The key words there are "Since my childhood". When you were 7, you didn't know this was the greatest country in the world. You found that out later. You recited the pledge only because you were told to. I agree that kids should do what their parents and teachers tell them to do, but the question still remains: What should we be telling them to do?

BTW, if you weren't forced to recite the pledge at 7, maybe you would've preferred one of those 100 other countries.

That is true to a certain extent but my parents instilled in me at and early age how lucky we were to be born in this country.......

When I was growing up it was a natural thing to stand and say the pledge and the kids I knew never thought of doing anything else.....
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I do find it strange, however, how we indoctrinate our children in their early years when they haven't a clue about what they are "pledging" to (or for) and haven't a clue as to what a pledge is in the first place.

Besides, elementary school children are not at the age of accountability anyways so why demand an unenforcable "pledge" to them in the first place?

To me, the pledge is merely a tool used to teach patriotism to our youth. The words, per se, to a third grader have no more, or no less, meaning than a simple nursery rhyme.

And by the time they do grow up to the age of accountability and understanding, they are no longer required to chant it daily.

Don't get me wrong. I stand straight and proud when pledging allegience to Old Glory. But indoctrination/brainwashing our children, I do take issue with.

It's unnecessary.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I do find it strange, however, how we indoctrinate our children in their early years when they haven't a clue about what they are "pledging" to (or for) and haven't a clue as to what a pledge is in the first place.

Besides, elementary school children are not at the age of accountability anyways so why demand an unenforcable "pledge" to them in the first place?

To me, the pledge is merely a tool used to teach patriotism to our youth. The words, per se, to a third grader have no more, or no less, meaning than a simple nursery rhyme.

And by the time they do grow up to the age of accountability and understanding, they are no longer required to chant it daily.

Don't get me wrong. I stand straight and proud when pledging allegience to Old Glory. But indoctrination/brainwashing our children, I do take issue with.

It's unnecessary.

I never looked at it that way..I guess because I kind of had a clue what it was about and why we were doing it.......I can understand a little bit the fuss over "Under God" because some people don't believe in God but I guess I just fon't understand what the problem is to stand and say the pledge...I guess it was just a different era.........
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I never looked at it that way..I guess because I kind of had a clue what it was about and why we were doing it.......I can understand a little bit the fuss over "Under God" because some people don't believe in God but I guess I just fon't understand what the problem is to stand and say the pledge...I guess it was just a different era.........

So you knew that it was about socialism back then?
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I never looked at it that way..I guess because I kind of had a clue what it was about and why we were doing it.......I can understand a little bit the fuss over "Under God" because some people don't believe in God but I guess I just fon't understand what the problem is to stand and say the pledge...I guess it was just a different era.........

I was raised under similar circumstances. I got no beef with the pledge, as I stated earlier. Eventually, after the ritual of pledging day in and day out at school, I came to understand what it was about. I'm thinking around the 6th grade or so.

I'm from the cold war era. We were taught to respect the flag. Never let it touch the ground. During fire drills, when we marched single file outside, I was the last guy in line and I took the little cloth flag outside with us because I was always the tallest in class and I could reach it. Imagine. leaving hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of books, audio visual equipment, furnature, behind to burn in a fire but NEVER leave the 1.98 cent flag behind. :rofl

Yeah, that was our generation for sure. I don't suppose we turned out too bad. We respected our teachers. The occassional rift was settled behind the gym with fisticuffs. Most of us matured to become good citizens and responsible adults. Go figure. :roll:

But I don't think a small child has a clue what they are doing when they ritualistically site the pledge. I can't see any other purpose in having them do so except for indoctrination.

Same way I can't understand how some christian based religions can baptise their infants. The Holy Bible is very clear on this. That's like wearing a wedding ring before you get married, but I digress. That's harmless too, I suppose.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I can't see any other purpose in having them do so except for indoctrination.

That's exactly the reason.

If parents want to indoctrinate their own children, that is their choice. When the governemnt mandates or other people choose to use public funds for the purposes of indoctrination, I am leery of it.

That's why oppose the pledge being said in schools. It should be said at home with the parents if the parents so choose, but there's no excuse for the government trying to force servitude or allegiance on anyone by having it mandated in the classroom, even if the option to refrain exists, because children don't know better and will follow along blindly without question.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's exactly the reason.

If parents want to indoctrinate their own children, that is their choice. When the governemnt mandates or other people choose to use public funds for the purposes of indoctrination, I am leery of it.

That's why oppose the pledge being said in schools. It should be said at home with the parents if the parents so choose, but there's no excuse for the government trying to force servitude or allegiance on anyone by having it mandated in the classroom, even if the option to refrain exists, because children don't know better and will follow along blindly without question.

I can totally understand your reasoning and cannot present anything valid to dispute it.

That being said, I am reminded each day how archaic we were raised compared to today's ideals. Dress codes. Corporal punishment. I was brought up in the days of "Yes sir. No ma'am. Please." Random acts of kindness and respectful manners.

Maybe my generation was a bit old-fashioned that way. That's true. But I will take that over the way today's generations are being conducted, any day.

All this new age "reasoning" sounds all well and good. But when I look at the finished product (today's young adults), compared to the finished products from my day and age, I have to wonder. :roll:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I can totally understand your reasoning and cannot present anything valid to dispute it.

That being said, I am reminded each day how archaic we were raised compared to today's ideals. Dress codes. Corporal punishment. I was brought up in the days of "Yes sir. No ma'am. Please." Random acts of kindness and respectful manners.

Maybe my generation was a bit old-fashioned that way. That's true. But I will take that over the way today's generations are being conducted, any day.

All this new age "reasoning" sounds all well and good. But when I look at the finished product (today's young adults), compared to the finished products from my day and age, I have to wonder. :roll:

Every generation says that as they get older. It smacks of an inability to see the flaws inherent within their own generation. Some of the rudest, meanest posters on this site are of that generation.

I look at many of the people 30 years older than me and I see people who are pretty much identical to those of my generation and those of the younger generation.

There's variance within the populations of all generations.

But one thing is assured. As they age, all generations will sit upon a high horse and look down their noses at those who are younger than them. It happens with every generation.

I would be willing to wager that in my everyday life, I'm far more respectful, mannerly and perform more random acts of kindness than the vast majority of people who are of that older generation.

I don't buy the "better era" line of nostalgic BS because its false idealism wrapped in cynicism.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Every generation says that as they get older. It smacks of an inability to see the flaws inherent within their own generation. Some of the rudest, meanest posters on this site are of that generation.

I look at many of the people 30 years older than me and I see people who are pretty much identical to those of my generation and those of the younger generation.

There's variance within the populations of all generations.

But one thing is assured. As they age, all generations will sit upon a high horse and look down their noses at those who are younger than them. It happens with every generation.

I would be willing to wager that in my everyday life, I'm far more respectful, mannerly and perform more random acts of kindness than the vast majority of people who are of that older generation.

I don't buy the "better era" line of nostalgic BS because its false idealism wrapped in cynicism.

You know that's true. The generation before me did it as well. As I am sure your generation will too. In fact, I shudder to think what the the future generation will be like at this pace. In fact, the generation before me were the one's who made me cut my hair, and do all the things that today are considered not important. I really hated them for it at the time. I was quite the rebel back then.

I have much admiration for many of today's youth. They are much smarter, technically, than we ever were. It is not my intention to look down my nose at anyone.

Speaking in the most general of terms, I'm just coming from a place where manly disputes were most often settled without knives and guns. A generation that didn't idolize the gangster lifestyle. A generation that would never consider cursing out their teachers or elders. A generation that didn't paint grafitti on people's property. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

My generation is the generation that rebelled against that old school line of thought. Seeing as how that evolved, I often wonder if we did a good thing or not. It ain't pretty. :roll:
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

Speaking in the most general of terms, I'm just coming from a place where manly disputes were most often settled without knives and guns. A generation that didn't idolize the gangster lifestyle. A generation that would never consider cursing out their teachers or elders. A generation that didn't paint grafitti on people's property. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

There are some legitimate gripes here and some exaggerations. The old way of settling a dispute is better than today's way. Where some douches think that manliness stems from a weapon. But there are still many of us who would be considered throwbacks to the old way as well.

As far as idolizing the gangster lifestyle, I know very few people who do that. The one's I grew up with that did usually got their asses kicked regularly for it.

I cuss like a mother ****er, but that's as much a part of being raised by bog-Irish parents as it is being a part of my generation. Most of my friends that are in my generation think I cuss too much, actually. And I've never painted graffiti on anyone's property, and I know very few people that did.

The point I was making is that the issues may be slightly different in how they are manifested, but they are essentially the same in their base form. And they are usually done by the minority within the group, not the majority.

But there are many of us in this generation who can and do surprise even the most cynical of the old-timers every day.

I hang out with my mom's 84-year-old uncle about once a month. We go to the pub and have a few drinks together. He was drafted into the Army during the Korean War shortly after he came to the US from Ireland. What I wrote before stems largely from the conversations I have with him, and are practically verbatim from his own comments.

When he talks about how the generations view each other, it's from being a part of the generation that made you guys cut your hair, as one of the people who said "Who gives a **** about their hair?"

His view of the world has largely shaped my own. He says the only difference between generations is the perspective at which the individual is viewing them.

He says little things are different, such as the way I'll make the same joke to him that I would a person my own age (for example, last year he was talking about a woman who was in her early 70's and he said that "she was a looker in her day" and I told him to stop "oggling the jailbait" which caused him to laugh his ass off and call me a "young punk") but that he prefers that I can sit there and treat him like I would a friend without feeling the need to censor myself for the illusion of respect and deference. He says that the very real and genuine respect and deference I give him by actually wanting to hang around with him is worth 1000 times all the "yes sirs" I could toss his way.

For everyone it's different, but I treat all people as equals, and treat everyone with the same degree of respect (the highest), regardless of their age.

Age is only a number. What makes someone a person is so much more valuable to me. Giving false deference and staying one level removed from a person based on their "elder" status only prevents me from being able to get close to them.

I value the fact that my mom's uncle is my friend far, far more than I value the fact that he's my great uncle.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That was great, Tucker. :)
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

All this new age "reasoning" sounds all well and good. But when I look at the finished product (today's young adults), compared to the finished products from my day and age, I have to wonder. :roll:

You do realize that that is exactly what your parents said.....
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

You do realize that that is exactly what your parents said.....

Yes sir, I do. But my parents were bitching about long hair, rock-n-roll and things like that. That's a far cry from bitching about drive-by's and graffitti and all-out offensive "young punk" disrespect, no?

As I alluded to earlier, I shudder to think what the offspring of today's youth will bring to the table. :shock:

If history repeats itself, it's only gonna get worse.

BUT...... for the most part our youth is something to be very proud of. It's just the cockroach punks of their generation that I take issue with. Far more dangerous than the cockroach punks from my generation. And there are far more of them too. It's not this generations fault though. It's their parents (or lack thereof.) And those parents aren't far removed from MY generation.

My generation, generally speaking, did a piss-poor job raising our children. Myself, and many others like me did good. But there are too many that did not.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

There are some legitimate gripes here and some exaggerations. The old way of settling a dispute is better than today's way. Where some douches think that manliness stems from a weapon. But there are still many of us who would be considered throwbacks to the old way as well.

As far as idolizing the gangster lifestyle, I know very few people who do that. The one's I grew up with that did usually got their asses kicked regularly for it.

I cuss like a mother ****er, but that's as much a part of being raised by bog-Irish parents as it is being a part of my generation. Most of my friends that are in my generation think I cuss too much, actually. And I've never painted graffiti on anyone's property, and I know very few people that did.

The point I was making is that the issues may be slightly different in how they are manifested, but they are essentially the same in their base form. And they are usually done by the minority within the group, not the majority.

But there are many of us in this generation who can and do surprise even the most cynical of the old-timers every day.

I hang out with my mom's 84-year-old uncle about once a month. We go to the pub and have a few drinks together. He was drafted into the Army during the Korean War shortly after he came to the US from Ireland. What I wrote before stems largely from the conversations I have with him, and are practically verbatim from his own comments.

When he talks about how the generations view each other, it's from being a part of the generation that made you guys cut your hair, as one of the people who said "Who gives a **** about their hair?"

His view of the world has largely shaped my own. He says the only difference between generations is the perspective at which the individual is viewing them.

He says little things are different, such as the way I'll make the same joke to him that I would a person my own age (for example, last year he was talking about a woman who was in her early 70's and he said that "she was a looker in her day" and I told him to stop "oggling the jailbait" which caused him to laugh his ass off and call me a "young punk") but that he prefers that I can sit there and treat him like I would a friend without feeling the need to censor myself for the illusion of respect and deference. He says that the very real and genuine respect and deference I give him by actually wanting to hang around with him is worth 1000 times all the "yes sirs" I could toss his way.

For everyone it's different, but I treat all people as equals, and treat everyone with the same degree of respect (the highest), regardless of their age.

Age is only a number. What makes someone a person is so much more valuable to me. Giving false deference and staying one level removed from a person based on their "elder" status only prevents me from being able to get close to them.

I value the fact that my mom's uncle is my friend far, far more than I value the fact that he's my great uncle.

that was absolutely amazing.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I'm going to take a small little piece of what people are saying about "indoctrination" and disagree. I do not think that there is anything wrong with national indoctrination. Kids should love their country and it should be taught from an early age to understand what the pledge of allegiance stands for. A country is only as strong as the people who love it. I do not see a problem with the government be it republican or democrat having policies where people are taught the pledge of allegiance. I do not think it should be forced but the government should at least make an effort to start kids early on it. Force nobody to take the pledge but at least have it as a policy.

For some reason I'm just more comfortable with having the pledge of allegiance in front of every court house than the 10 commandments. Or make people recite the bill of rights. Or some other founding document.

Oh God. I just had an AMERICA **** YEAH!!!! moment.
 
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Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

I'm going to take a small little piece of what people are saying about "indoctrination" and disagree. I do not think that there is anything wrong with national indoctrination. Kids should love their country and it should be taught from an early age to understand what the pledge of allegiance stands for. A country is only as strong as the people who love it. I do not see a problem with the government be it republican or democrat having policies where people are taught the pledge of allegiance. I do not think it should be forced but the government should at least make an effort to start kids early on it. Force nobody to take the pledge but at least have it as a policy.

For some reason I'm just more comfortable with having the pledge of allegiance in front of every court house than the 10 commandments. Or make people recite the bill of rights. Or some other founding document.

Oh God. I just had an AMERICA **** YEAH!!!! moment.
how is that possible anymore? America sucks now.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

When I was growing up it was a natural thing to stand and say the pledge and the kids I knew never thought of doing anything else.....
That's because we were kids.
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's because we were kids.

Snd so is the kid in the story.......:confused:
 
Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

That's ridiculous. What happened to freedom of speech?
 
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