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2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

Navy Pride said:
I was in the Navy for 21 years and I never knew anyone who was openly gay aboard the 6 ships I was on or any of the shore stations.....I guess in that time I saw 9 or 10 guys get discharged for making unwanted advance,,,,we even had and incident where NCIS came aboard undercover and after about a month the caught 3 or 4 guys who were having sex.......Actually one guy was servicing the other 2 on a regular basis.......
The 2 guys were burley rough guys and claimed they were not gay but they got prosecuted just like the one that was doing the servicing.....

From the guys I talk to I disagree that it won't be a huge thing in fact I would say its 50-50 that it will actually happen esspecially if the poll the troops involved..........
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Things have changed a lot Navy.

It may not happen this year, but I'd bet it's going to happen in the next 5 years or so. The biggest obstacle it has is getting past people's fears of what will happen, since there's no actual proof anyone has that it will cause major problems.
 
Navy Pride said:
Well that is not how General Petreaus or General Casey feel about it....They want input from the enlisted people affected........
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They're not going to get a good, accurate feel of how everyone feels unless they ask everyone directly. And they may want to take into consideration how people are answering and what kind of work environment they are working in. People who are working now with people they know are gay are probably going to have a little better view on how the openly gay Sailor/Soldier/Marine is truly working out rather than those who are just speculating on how they would react if they had to work in such an environment.
 
Redress said:
And several people, including some top generals, have said it can be done. I can look at the changing society(especially among the young), and the changing attitudes of those in the military, and the successes other countries have had, and draw conclusions based on that. Since it is predicting the future, no one knows for 100 % sure, but I am pretty confident that it can be done without sacrificing unit cohesion and military readiness.
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Why are you confident that unit cohesion amongst infantry units won't be degraded? How could you be confident when you know virtually nothing about those units? This is why I don't think you care...because you're making assumptions and ignoring opposing viewpoints.
 
roguenuke said:
None of these things would truly be affected if the military allowed gays to serve openly.
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What about infantry units? How are you going to sit there and tell me what will happen in units you know nothing about? You were in the Navy, I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean you know anything about the grunts and what their reaction will be to this policy change. Based upon my experience, I can say there will be problems. Some units might be fine with it, but others will not. My unit (Second Battalion, Fifth Marine Regiment) was damn intense. An openly gay dude living amongst us would have caused numerous problems; that's damn fact, yet, here you and Redress are, Navy veterans, telling me everything will be fine. How could you possibly know that? What are you basing that upon? You never served in the Marines, and you never served in an infantry unit. I did and I'm telling you it will cause problems. Infantry Marines aren't nice and sweet like you want them to be; they're full of hate and discontent and they want to kill the enemy. They're a unique breed of warrior and your wishful thinking isn't going to change that. Get with the program...
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
I'm going to ask this for the millionth time. What problems popped up after Canada, the UK, and Australia allowed openly gay people to serve in their militaries?
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I don't know. Maybe there were some problems; can you tell me there weren't?

Either way, the United States is not the same as Canada, the UK, or Australia. Our military is different and unique to our society.

CC went through this earlier in the thread. You being in the military doesn't give you the only perspective in the debate
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Did I say that?
 
Ethereal said:
What about infantry units? How are you going to sit there and tell me what will happen in units you know nothing about? You were in the Navy, I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean you know anything about the grunts and what their reaction will be to this policy change. Based upon my experience, I can say there will be problems. Some units might be fine with it, but others will not. My unit (Second Battalion, Fifth Marine Regiment) was damn intense. An openly gay dude living amongst us would have caused numerous problems; that's damn fact, yet, here you and Redress are, Navy veterans, telling me everything will be fine. How could you possibly know that? What are you basing that upon? You never served in the Marines, and you never served in an infantry unit. I did and I'm telling you it will cause problems. Infantry Marines aren't nice and sweet like you want them to be; they're full of hate and discontent and they want to kill the enemy. They're a unique breed of warrior and your wishful thinking isn't going to change that. Get with the program...
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I married a Marine tow-gunner. I know that's not the same as being in, but I also had some contact with other Marines. I do have a little more insight than just what I'm assuming will happen based on my experience. I do understand that's different.

The one important aspect I think you're missing is that in general, most military members don't want to get in trouble. That, in itself will keep too much from occurring. Another thing is most of the gay guys aren't going to openly come out and announce to everyone and their brother that their gay and totally flaunt it just because they can. That would be highly stupid of them. Some will, but there are ways to deal with problems.
 
roguenuke said:
I married a Marine tow-gunner. I know that's not the same as being in, but I also had some contact with other Marines. I do have a little more insight than just what I'm assuming will happen based on my experience. I do understand that's different.
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Okay then, I'm not sure how that disproves anything I've said. A gay dude in my unit would have caused numerous problems. He would have caught hell for it, first of all, none of the Marines would have wanted to room with him, they sure as hell wouldn't have respected him as a leader, and he would have probably taken issue with our constant use of gay slurs. Sometimes things get violent in infantry units, too, and don't even get me started on the actual combat zones; things get nasty over there.

The group is supposed to be tightly knit and clannish; it would be virtually impossible for a gay dude to coalesce with the rest of his peers in some units, other units might be different. That's why I think it should be left up to the commanders instead of you or me or the Congress or Mothers of America. Why don't you think a unit commander is capable of exercising proper discretion?

The one important aspect I think you're missing is that in general, most military members don't want to get in trouble.
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There are plenty of ways to make someone's life hell without breaking the rules.

That, in itself will keep too much from occurring. Another thing is most of the gay guys aren't going to openly come out and announce to everyone and their brother that their gay and totally flaunt it just because they can. That would be highly stupid of them. Some will, but there are ways to deal with problems.
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Perhaps, perhaps not. And if they aren't going to come out, then what's the point of repealing DADT?
 
Ethereal said:
Okay then, I'm not sure how that disproves anything I've said. A gay dude in my unit would have caused numerous problems. He would have caught hell for it, first of all, none of the Marines would have wanted to room with him, they sure as hell wouldn't have respected him as a leader, and he would have probably taken issue with our constant use of gay slurs. Sometimes things get violent in infantry units, too, and don't even get me started on the actual combat zones; things get nasty over there.

The group is supposed to be tightly knit and clannish; it would be virtually impossible for a gay dude to coalesce with the rest of his peers in some units, other units might be different. That's why I think it should be left up to the commanders instead of you or me or the Congress or Mothers of America. Why don't you think a unit commander is capable of exercising proper discretion?
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Because that's still not fair. Allowing the unit commander to have an option of transferring the person could be ok, but not discharging. Technically that would pretty much like it is now.

Ethereal said:
There are plenty of ways to make someone's life hell without breaking the rules.
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True, but it would cut out some of the major fears.


Ethereal said:
Perhaps, perhaps not. And if they aren't going to come out, then what's the point of repealing DADT?
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Because the military is one entity. You can't repeal it for one or two parts only. It has to be repealed for the entire military. Also, some gays just want to be able to serve without the fear of being discharged if they are found out. They don't necessarily care about being able to come out and flaunt their sexuality. Also, there's the whole honor thing, about not having to lie, because even though DADT means that you can't be asked if you're gay, they still know that they're technically not supposed to be in. And before they can truly serve openly, most likely Article 125 of the UCMJ will be put up for review and changed to exclude consentual sodomy. This will mean that some, if not all, will be able to honestly say that they aren't disobeying a law of the UCMJ just by sleeping with someone they are attracted to or even in love with.

Would every guy in your unit ostracize a gay guy or would it just be a handful? And what if the guy already proved himself to the unit? Are you saying they'll turn on him that fast just for being gay? It's not like he would have had to be lying to them if he was just keeping his personal life private. That doesn't seem very close knit to me. Just an illusion of it, if they would turn on a friend so quickly just for being gay.
 
roguenuke said:
Because that's still not fair.
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Who cares about fair? This isn't preschool, it's the infantry.

Allowing the unit commander to have an option of transferring the person could be ok, but not discharging. Technically that would pretty much like it is now.
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Who said they couldn't transfer them? Do you think a Marine Captain is too stupid to figure things out on his own? Discharging someone takes time and money and decreases our numerical superiority; obviously, if he can just send the gay dude to another unit that's what he'll do. Like I said, I'm confident that our military commanders can figure things out without you and me and some stupid-ass politician micromanaging them.

True, but it would cut out some of the major fears.
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I highly doubt it. I had a hard enough time as a straight dude in the infantry; can't imagine what it would be like if I were gay...

Because the military is one entity. You can't repeal it for one or two parts only.
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I said: Unit discretion. That means the same standard is applied to all units.

It has to be repealed for the entire military. Also, some gays just want to be able to serve without the fear of being discharged if they are found out. They don't necessarily care about being able to come out and flaunt their sexuality. Also, there's the whole honor thing, about not having to lie, because even though DADT means that you can't be asked if you're gay, they still know that they're technically not supposed to be in. And before they can truly serve openly, most likely Article 125 of the UCMJ will be put up for review and changed to exclude consentual sodomy. This will mean that some, if not all, will be able to honestly say that they aren't disobeying a law of the UCMJ just by sleeping with someone they are attracted to or even in love with.
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These are all ideological and philosophical concerns. Fair...equal...honor. Those are just words. I'm more concerned with the actual results; the lives and the objectives at stake.

Would every guy in your unit ostracize a gay guy or would it just be a handful?
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I'd say around 95% of them would have actively ridiculed him.

And what if the guy already proved himself to the unit?
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They would probably be more resentful of him. My senior Marines hated me when I first showed up to the fleet (well, they always hated me) because I was kind of cocky and very smart. They didn't like it, and they made my life harder because of it. If I had told them I was gay...:rofl

Good lord, I can't even imagine...

Are you saying they'll turn on him that fast just for being gay?
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Yup.

It's not like he would have had to be lying to them if he was just keeping his personal life private. That doesn't seem very close knit to me. Just an illusion of it, if they would turn on a friend so quickly just for being gay.
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Homophobia is irrational. Stop trying to make sense of it and just accept the fact that lots of grunts don't like gay guys. I don't understand why this is so surprising. There's plenty of regular Americans who are uncomfortable with gays, why should you expect an ultra-conservative niche of blood-thirsty devil dogs to be different?
 
roguenuke said:
Things have changed a lot Navy.

It may not happen this year, but I'd bet it's going to happen in the next 5 years or so. The biggest obstacle it has is getting past people's fears of what will happen, since there's no actual proof anyone has that it will cause major problems.
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That is possible and it seems like a lot of people in this forum are for lifting the ban, of course it does not affect them..they are not in the military...they might feel different if they were...

If they do lift the ban I can see huge problems with straights serving....I can see fight and all kinds of disciplanary problems that the Navy or any other service does not need....I can see a mass exodus of senior enlisted personnel because they will not accept knowingly living, dressing, and showering with gay people.......I really don't see the same problem with lesbians though...For whatever reason lesbianism seems more acceptable.........

I hope I am wrong because I hate to see the Navy I love go to hell in a hand basket...........

We shall see what happens.....
 
Ethereal said:
Who cares about fair? This isn't preschool, it's the infantry.



Who said they couldn't transfer them? Do you think a Marine Captain is too stupid to figure things out on his own? Discharging someone takes time and money and decreases our numerical superiority; obviously, if he can just send the gay dude to another unit that's what he'll do. Like I said, I'm confident that our military commanders can figure things out without you and me and some stupid-ass politician micromanaging them.



I highly doubt it. I had a hard enough time as a straight dude in the infantry; can't imagine what it would be like if I were gay...



I said: Unit discretion. That means the same standard is applied to all units.



These are all ideological and philosophical concerns. Fair...equal...honor. Those are just words. I'm more concerned with the actual results; the lives and the objectives at stake.



I'd say around 95% of them would have actively ridiculed him.



They would probably be more resentful of him. My senior Marines hated me when I first showed up to the fleet (well, they always hated me) because I was kind of cocky and very smart. They didn't like it, and they made my life harder because of it. If I had told them I was gay...:rofl

Good lord, I can't even imagine...



Yup.



Homophobia is irrational. Stop trying to make sense of it and just accept the fact that lots of grunts don't like gay guys. I don't understand why this is so surprising. There's plenty of regular Americans who are uncomfortable with gays, why should you expect an ultra-conservative niche of blood-thirsty devil dogs to be different?
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Certain rules have never been decided by commanders, but by those pencil pushers and politicians above them. Should the commanders have the same free reign to discharge anyone that they found didn't fit in, and not just be forced to make him fit or transfer him?

I meant it would cut out the fears that there would be a huge number of deaths or beatings of gays that were found out. Going back I see how that could have been misunderstood. Most guys are not going to risk their career to beat or kill a guy for being gay. Make his life tougher, sure. But not kill him. There might be one or two cases of beatings or deaths, but those sometimes happen now under DADT.
And as I've mentioned before it's not much different than those guys who have issues with interracial dating. The biggest difference is there are so few of those left nowdays to do much major damage. I did meet two Marines in HI though that had really big issues with interracial dating. Now if they would have tried anything in this day and age against another Marine who was dating a girl of a different race, they'd probably fail and get in major trouble for it.
So maybe we should look and see if this caused any problems for the military in the past when a lot fewer people were tolerant of interracial dating? It could give a perspective on how to deal with problems arising from allowing gays to serve openly.

I wasn't talking about a new transfer into the unit. I'm talking about someone that they all had accepted into the unit, who had gone out on deployment with them, who had spent off-time with them, who showed them that he could do the same job they do, and who has been with them a while and they consider a friend. Would they feel the same way if they considered the guy a friend, one of them? I don't think you could absolutely say they would. I think most guys would truly care less, even those in infantry.

Also, I think you'd be surprised at how not "ultraconservative" these guys really are. I hung out with a lot of Marines in Hawaii, before and especially after I met my husband. They all had different beliefs and political leanings on many things. I had a Marine come out of the closet to a fellow Marine on my balcony. The reaction wasn't anger, it was more of disbelief over how many Marines he knew that were gay.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, most of the problems that people imagine it will cause I'm pretty sure won't be nearly as bad as people think, even those who have been in the most susceptible units. We'll never know the truth until it happens.
 
Navy Pride said:
If they do lift the ban I can see huge problems with straights serving....I can see fight and all kinds of disciplanary problems that the Navy or any other service does not need....I can see a mass exodus of senior enlisted personnel because they will not accept knowingly living, dressing, and showering with gay people.......
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...but they can serve as long as they don't know about it? As long as it's secret, they would have no problems showering with a gay? That's ridiculous. You honestly think that servicemen would abandon the military because they would feel uncomfortable with showering with gays?

The same servicemen who are willing to risk their lives to serve our military, but you don't think they can risk showering with gays?

I really don't see the same problem with lesbians though...For whatever reason lesbianism seems more acceptable.........
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A sexist double standard is what it is.
 
Ethereal said:
Why are you confident that unit cohesion amongst infantry units won't be degraded? How could you be confident when you know virtually nothing about those units? This is why I don't think you care...because you're making assumptions and ignoring opposing viewpoints.
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Because the chief element in unit cohesion and morale is the ability of it's leadership. This has been true almost always. Further, I can compare the effects that allowing gays to serve has had on other infantries.

Constantly repeating that I do not care will not make it true, even if it makes you feel better about those who disagree with you.
 
...but they can serve as long as they don't know about it? As long as it's secret, they would have no problems showering with a gay? That's ridiculous. You honestly think that servicemen would abandon the military because they would feel uncomfortable with showering with gays?

The same servicemen who are willing to risk their lives to serve our military, but you don't think they can risk showering with gays?
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You may not like it but that is the way it is and although it has not been perfect its worked pretty well since 1993.....The military does not have a problem now.....Do away with DADT and they will.........We are fighting 2 wars at the moment.we don't need the distraction........

A sexist double standard is what it is.
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Yes it is for most men too......The military is not a democracy..........When you sign the dotted line you agree to the rules........If you don't like the way this dictatorship works, don't join....
 
Redress said:
Because the chief element in unit cohesion and morale is the ability of it's leadership. This has been true almost always. Further, I can compare the effects that allowing gays to serve has had on other infantries.


Constantly repeating that I do not care will not make it true, even if it makes you feel better about those who disagree with you.
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Just remember there is no military in the world like the U.S. military.....
 
Navy Pride said:
I don't have to serve in them to know about them as I don't have to put my hand in a fire to find out if it will burn.......
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Okay, so people who haven't served can do the same thing with regards to expecting our troops to conduct themselves professionally with the homosexuals in their units, right? ;)
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Okay, so people who haven't served can do the same thing with regards to expecting our troops to conduct themselves professionally with the homosexuals in their units, right? ;)
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Thankfully, our troops are the most professional in the world, bar none.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Okay, so people who haven't served can do the same thing with regards to expecting our troops to conduct themselves professionally with the homosexuals in their units, right? ;)
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Not quite the same thing...You can only experience serving to know what its like......Its a different world........some adjust...some don't......
 
Navy Pride said:
Not quite the same thing...You can only experience serving to know what its like......Its a different world........some adjust...some don't......
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I've showered with men. I slept in the same room with a gay man. I'm not gay and I survived unmolested. Do soldiers sleep or shower differently?
 
Navy Pride said:
Not quite the same thing...You can only experience serving to know what its like......Its a different world........some adjust...some don't......
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And those who cannot act professionally do not last long. I can base that on my experience in the military.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
I've showered with men. I slept in the same room with a gay man. I'm not gay and I survived unmolested. Do soldiers sleep or shower differently?
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Yes, we do it with military style. We do more before 9:00am then you do all day. Except on the weekends when we drink heavily and sneak into the females billet after paying off the person on CQ duty or fire watch. Having openly gay solders would put a serious cramp into that. ;)
 
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