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Navy will soon let women serve on subs

Gibberish said:
What I would like to see proven is that the woman's standards are in adequate to perform a successful job in combat situations. A woman only doing 10 pulls vs a mans 20 doesn't equate to job performance.
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Only the males in the Marine corp do pull ups,women do whats called a flex arm hang.

Flexed-Arm Hang
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Chart - Female
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Chart - Males


Are women unable to carry the average infantry equipment?
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Having been a infantry I would have to say no. I do not know about marine corp infantry but in the US army infantry you carry your weapon,your ruck sack, extra ammo,canteens, and depending on your position you may also carry a rocket launcher like a AT4 or FGM-148 Javelin,grenades,radio, medical equipment(some infantry soldiers take a combat lifesaver course)


Weapon (6-28 plus pounds, not counting the extra ammo)
rusksack( 88-101 pounds)
Are women unable to shoot as accurately as men?
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The ability to shoot well is totally irrelevance if you can't carry your weapon,extra ammo and gear to where you need to shoot at.
 
apdst said:
Personel who don't want to kill the enemy, because of their religious convictions are still allowed to serve as contientious objectors, too. So that argument is a big fail.
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The contention of the argument was not conscientious objection but a incompatibility of religious orientation with military service. The core of the argument stands.

If a soldier can't be ordered to kill the enemy on the battlefield, because of religious beliefs, then a soldier can't be ordered to take birth control, because of religious beliefs.
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Weak analogy.

I'm not aware of any birth control drug that isn't controlled through prescription.
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So, you used to need a prescription for claritin, another weak analogy.

You must be totally unaware of LSD experimentation on soldiers during the 50's and 60's.
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I was aware of the CIA sequestering african americans and smacking them up on LSD for weeks at a time but I haven't heard of drug experimentation in the Army. I assumed it had probably happened Are you in fear that an application may be found for a psychoactive drug to be used in combat? If it has been found why shouldn't it be used? Because it makes you squeamish?

Perhaps you should tone down the, "you don't know what the **** you're talking about", routine, then.
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I'm sorry you feel that way.
 
I've changed my mind. Put women on subs. Every sailor gets one, how about that?
 
American said:
I've changed my mind. Put women on subs. Every sailor gets one, how about that?
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Nothing like talking about women to make some men turn into adolescent boys.
 
misterman said:
Nothing like talking about women to make some men turn into adolescent boys.
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You'll have your chance, once you become a man. Keep your chin up.
 
Here is something interesting:

"In 1995, Army researchers came up with a new study that concludes that, when a woman is correctly trained, she can be as tough as any man (Harman, 1995).

The report by the US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine at Natick, MA was led by senior analyst Everett Harman. "You don't need testosterone to get strong," Harman concluded. Through a regimen of regular jogging, weight training, and other rigorous exercise, more that 75 percent of the 41 women studied were able to prepare themselves to successfully perform duties traditionally performed by males in the military. Before training, less than 25 percent of the women were capable of performing the tasks. All but one of the females were civilian volunteers, and none had previously adopted a routine of strenuous physical activity. The women included lawyers, mothers, students, and bartenders. Several had recently had children and thought the training would put them back in shape. They were unaware that their performance might eventually be used to topple one of the last citadels of bias against women in both the military and society. The 24-week training study began in May 1995 with women spending 90 minutes a day, five days a week, building themselves up for endurance tests. They ran a two-mile wooded course wearing a 75-pound rucksack and performed squats holding a 100-pound barbell on their shoulders. Nationally certified trainers oversaw the conditioning.(Pisik 11)"

Women in Combat, An Affirmative Case - The Atlas Society Forums
 
And sometimes it's not about physical strength, but bravery under fire:

Woman Gains Silver Star -- And Removal From Combat

"KHOST, Afghanistan -- Pfc. Monica Brown cracked open the door of her Humvee outside a remote village in eastern Afghanistan to the soft pop of bullets shot by Taliban fighters. But instead of taking cover, the 18-year-old medic grabbed her bag and ran through gunfire toward fellow soldiers in a crippled and burning vehicle.

Vice President Cheney pinned Brown, of Lake Jackson, Tex., with a Silver Star in March for repeatedly risking her life on April 25, 2007, to shield and treat her wounded comrades, displaying bravery and grit. She is the second woman since World War II to receive the nation's third-highest combat medal..."
 
jamesrage said:
Only the males in the Marine corp do pull ups,women do whats called a flex arm hang.

Flexed-Arm Hang
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Chart - Female
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Chart - Males
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Pretty damn easy fitness requirements for the men. No reason many women couldn't meet those.

Having been a infantry I would have to say no. I do not know about marine corp infantry but in the US army infantry you carry your weapon,your ruck sack, extra ammo,canteens, and depending on your position you may also carry a rocket launcher like a AT4 or FGM-148 Javelin,grenades,radio, medical equipment(some infantry soldiers take a combat lifesaver course)


Weapon (6-28 plus pounds, not counting the extra ammo)
rusksack( 88-101 pounds)
Click to expand...
I don't see what would make it impossible for a woman to carry that. Do you have any scientific proof that no woman could possibly carry 120 lbs? Because I know damn well I could carry it.

The ability to shoot well is totally irrelevance if you can't carry your weapon,extra ammo and gear to where you need to shoot at.
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Well, it's a good thing that carrying the gear isn't an issue.
 
rivrrat said:
Pretty damn easy fitness requirements for the men. No reason many women couldn't meet those.
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If those fitness requirements are so easy then why are the standards lowered for women?


I don't see what would make it impossible for a woman to carry that. Do you have any scientific proof that no woman could possibly carry 120 lbs? Because I know damn well I could carry it.


Well, it's a good thing that carrying the gear isn't an issue.
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I am pretty sure there are some women out there who could carry those things for miles. However I do not think a whole Infantry unit should be rearranged or somehow changed just for the two or three women who can do those things. Nor should the military lower standards to accommodate those who can't make it.
 
jamesrage said:
If those fitness requirements are so easy then why are the standards lowered for women?
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Because the 'suits' are retarded.

I am pretty sure there are some women out there who could carry those things for miles. However I do not think a whole Infantry unit should be rearranged or somehow changed just for the two or three women who can do those things. Nor should the military lower standards to accommodate those who can't make it.
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Nothing needs to be rearranged or changed. Standards do not need to be lowered. The double standard has only succeeded in forcing the men to bear a larger burden and weaken the women in the military.
 
Porchev said:
Here is something interesting:

"In 1995, Army researchers came up with a new study that concludes that, when a woman is correctly trained, she can be as tough as any man (Harman, 1995).

The report by the US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine at Natick, MA was led by senior analyst Everett Harman. "You don't need testosterone to get strong," Harman concluded. Through a regimen of regular jogging, weight training, and other rigorous exercise, more that 75 percent of the 41 women studied were able to prepare themselves to successfully perform duties traditionally performed by males in the military. Before training, less than 25 percent of the women were capable of performing the tasks. All but one of the females were civilian volunteers, and none had previously adopted a routine of strenuous physical activity. The women included lawyers, mothers, students, and bartenders. Several had recently had children and thought the training would put them back in shape. They were unaware that their performance might eventually be used to topple one of the last citadels of bias against women in both the military and society. The 24-week training study began in May 1995 with women spending 90 minutes a day, five days a week, building themselves up for endurance tests. They ran a two-mile wooded course wearing a 75-pound rucksack and performed squats holding a 100-pound barbell on their shoulders. Nationally certified trainers oversaw the conditioning.(Pisik 11)"

Women in Combat, An Affirmative Case - The Atlas Society Forums
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To bad basic training is only 8 weeks, not 24.

So to get to a minimum basic Army level it takes a female 24 weeks and a man 8.

So in the same time it takes to ready 1 female for combat, we can train 3 males.

We also don't use "Nationally certified trainers" in the Army. :roll:

Weight training is also not a part of basic military training for any service.

Good info.
 
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Porchev said:
And sometimes it's not about physical strength, but bravery under fire:

Woman Gains Silver Star -- And Removal From Combat

"KHOST, Afghanistan -- Pfc. Monica Brown cracked open the door of her Humvee outside a remote village in eastern Afghanistan to the soft pop of bullets shot by Taliban fighters. But instead of taking cover, the 18-year-old medic grabbed her bag and ran through gunfire toward fellow soldiers in a crippled and burning vehicle.

Vice President Cheney pinned Brown, of Lake Jackson, Tex., with a Silver Star in March for repeatedly risking her life on April 25, 2007, to shield and treat her wounded comrades, displaying bravery and grit. She is the second woman since World War II to receive the nation's third-highest combat medal..."
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Irrelevant to the discussion. If it was just about bravery allot of good men were washed out as well.

No one is questioning a persons bravery or commitment, it is simply about the physical disparity that exists naturally between women and men. Which you pointed out quite beautifully nonetheless.
 
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Blackdog said:
How many times do I have to repeat that the mission has changed since the 70's.

It is not the same. It has changed a ****load from when I was in, in the 80's and early 90's.

No cushy job anymore. You rotate just like everyone else.

Every combat solder from medic to the lowest clerk is a combat solder.
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We did the same back then too. It just so happens that I was never assigned to a field hospital. Some of my friends were. One thing is for sure, none of us would've been assigned as combat medics to accompany troops into battle. That would've required training in another MOS. That would hold true for today.
 
CrusaderRabbit08 said:
We did the same back then too. It just so happens that I was never assigned to a field hospital. Some of my friends were. One thing is for sure, none of us would've been assigned as combat medics to accompany troops into battle. That would've required training in another MOS. That would hold true for today.
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No it does not hold true today. It did not hold true when I was in, let alone over 20 years later.
 
Blackdog said:
No it does not hold true today. It did not hold true when I was in, let alone over 20 years later.
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I just told you that a combat medic was a different MOS from the various hospital medical MOS's. You can't take a respiratory specialist (68V) and assign him as a combat medic (68W) overnight. He'll have to go back to school for at least 4 months to get training in that MOS.
 
Gibberish said:
So there are many that are unable to meet the mental requirements of their post? Not to mention, for those that are married, their inability to stay faithful to their wedding vows.
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I am going to ask you the same question I asked a couple of lefties awhile back who ignored my question...

Your in a foxhole and being over run by the enemy......who would you rather have in the hole with you a 100 lb woman or a 200 lb man?
 
Navy Pride said:
I am going to ask you the same question I asked a couple of lefties awhile back who ignored my question...

Your in a foxhole and being over run by the enemy......who would you rather have in the hole with you a 100 lb woman or a 200 lb man?
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I don't know any women who weigh 100lbs.

But what would their weight have to do with their ability? I'd rather have a person most qualified. Not an overweight man, and not an anorexic woman. Why go to opposite ends of the spectrum? How about giving healthy weights for either gender? How about giving their respective abilities? Who's the better shot?
 
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CrusaderRabbit08 said:
I just told you that a combat medic was a different MOS from the various hospital medical MOS's. You can't take a respiratory specialist (68V) and assign him as a combat medic (68W) overnight. He'll have to go back to school for at least 4 months to get training in that MOS.
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It is only open to soldiers holding the rank of SGT nonpromotable and below. The 68V course is for in-service personnel only and is not open for Initial Entry Training. Soldiers holding the MOS 68A, 68P, 68K, or 68WM6 may not apply.

Things have changed, like I said.
 
rivrrat said:
I don't know any women who weigh 100lbs.

But what would their weight have to do with their ability? I'd rather have a person most qualified. Not an overweight man, and not an anorexic woman.
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Some day I will introduce you to my wife.....she weighs 98 smd is not anorexic......

I did not say the man was over weight you did........Both people equal in being in shape.........give me the 200 lb guy every time...........
 
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Navy Pride said:
Some day I will introduce you to my wife.....she weighs 98 smd is not anorexic......

I did not say the man was over weight you did........Both people equal in being in shape.........give me the 200 lb guy every time...........
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Give me the PERSON most qualified. I don't give a **** if that person has tits or balls. Irrelevant.
 
Navy Pride said:
I am going to ask you the same question I asked a couple of lefties awhile back who ignored my question...

Your in a foxhole and being over run by the enemy......who would you rather have in the hole with you a 100 lb woman or a 200 lb man?
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I could kiss the woman before I died. :rofl
 
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