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Navy will soon let women serve on subs

The sleeping arrangements on a sub are one thing, but I don't buy into the argument that women are not physically able to handle it. Women are taking on roles throughout the military and seem to be handling it just fine.

Some current military women; and some physically fit civilian ones too:

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Now lets take those same females, put them in full gear with a 100 pound ruck and a SAW with it's amunition on a 20 mile march.

The medical evidence I have put forth says no.

PS My sister was in the Air Force, she weighs all of 125 lbs. And no way in hell she could do it.

PSS That last one on the beach is hooooot! I would be glad to carry her gear for her.
 
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So let me get this straight.

The standards have been lowered. You think this is wrong (as do I). So your solution is to exclude women altogether, rather than simply having a single standard. You want to stop complaints about discrimination...by imposing discrimination.

Yeah, that makes sense.

You are ignoring the reality of the situation. I am a realist.

In any attempt at all in our nations history, period. Anytime a women has cried discrimination be it military or civilian, the overall standards have been reduced or just the standards for females.

Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Now if you would come up with an argument based on reality rather than insults or fantasy, we can get someplace.
 
Now lets take those same females, put them in full gear with a 100 pound ruck and a SAW with it's amunition on a 20 mile march.

The medical evidence I have put forth says no.

PS My sister was in the Air Force, she weighs all of 125 lbs. And no way in hell she could do it.

PS That last one on the beach is hooooot! I would be glad to carry her gear for her.


Hail, I couldn't do that, not anymore. I'm 40-some and have developed knee problems.

I was disqual'd for service due to hearing problems. I was disappointed, but those are the breaks. The military isn't about being fair to everyone and dispensing social justice, its about fighting wars.

As long as the effectiveness of a given unit is not disrupted, let women serve in those capacities in which they are able to serve.

However, I don't believe in lowering the standard for ANYONE. They didn't lower it for me (hearing requirements), so why lower it for anyone else?

If a woman wants to be in the Infantry, she should have to meet the EXACT same requirements as any male infantryman. If she can, fine... if she can't, too bad.

Bottom line to me is, the military needs to be a lean mean fighting machine. If women in service are not a problem, fine. If the vast majority can't cope with certain types (MOS) of service, like 11Bravo, oh well. We have to go with whatever the reality is, not what some people think it should be.
 
Now lets take those same females, put them in full gear with a 100 pound ruck and a SAW with it's amunition on a 20 mile march.

The medical evidence I have put forth says no.

Who needs "medical evidence?"

Put them in the gear and let them march. The ones who make it are in, the ones who don't are out. Just like the men.

Pretty simple concept.
 
Who needs "medical evidence?"

Put them in the gear and let them march. The ones who make it are in, the ones who don't are out. Just like the men.

Pretty simple concept.

Continue to ignore the reality's of the differences physically between men and women.

Who needs medical evidence. :roll:

The standards would be reduced. What part of this are you not getting?
 
You are ignoring the reality of the situation. I am a realist.

You're not even close to being a realist.

In any attempt at all in our nations history, period. Anytime a women has cried discrimination be it military or civilian, the overall standards have been reduced or just the standards for females.

Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Yes, so let's not reduce the standards next time. We can do whatever we want, you know.

Now if you would come up with an argument based on reality rather than insults or fantasy, we can get someplace.

I repeat - your solution to complaints about discrimination is...discrimination. That makes no sense. You want to make sense, right?
 
Continue to ignore the reality's of the differences physically between men and women.

Who needs medical evidence. :roll:

The standards would be reduced. What part of this are you not getting?

No, the standards would not be reduced.

One standard. Let the women try. If any of them can do it, let those women in.

What's so hard about that?
 
It's not a bad comparison.

Some guys, including some of the tough guys on this thread, just can't handle the idea of women being strong. They really need to get their asses kicked by a woman, and they will do absolutely anything to avoid that. Including making some really twisted arguments.

It's not a bad comparison, I agree.

I wasn't so much comparing situations as comparing personal experiences. apdst was saying that women were crybabies because he'd been around a few that were. So, since I've been around men that were crybabies - in situations that according to some men here isn't as difficult as the military - I must conclude that men are crybabies and can't handle stress and fatigue the way women can. The fact that they consider what I'm talking about a 'vacation' only further proves my point. ;)

I mean, if sweeping generalizations based on extremely limited experience (by his own admission) works for apdst, then why can't sweeping generalizations based on extensive experience work for me? :mrgreen:
 
Now lets take those same females, put them in full gear with a 100 pound ruck and a SAW with it's amunition on a 20 mile march.

The medical evidence I have put forth says no.

PS My sister was in the Air Force, she weighs all of 125 lbs. And no way in hell she could do it.

PSS That last one on the beach is hooooot! I would be glad to carry her gear for her.

Yet there are plenty of females out there doing just fine, for example Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester of the 617th Military Police Company, a National Guard unit out of Richmond, Ky:

"Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester fought her way through an enemy ambush south of Baghdad, killing three insurgents with her M-4 rifle to save fellow soldiers' lives -- and yesterday became the first woman since World War II to win the Silver Star medal for valor in combat."
Soldier Earns Silver Star for Her Role in Defeating Ambush - washingtonpost.com
 
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You're not even close to being a realist.

Yea after 12 years in the Army. What the hell do I know?

After posting ACTUAL EVIDENCE to the contrary. What the hell do I know?

After years on the police department watching the female qualifications dropped to allow more of them because of pressure from the mayors office. What the hell do I know?

Yes, so let's not reduce the standards next time. We can do whatever we want, you know.

What part of "this is not going to happen" are you not AGAIN understanding?

I repeat - your solution to complaints about discrimination is...discrimination. That makes no sense. You want to make sense, right?

No it's not discrimination. I am not advocating keeping females out of anything. Have you actually read anything I posted? I am advocating they be held to the same requirements as men, but I am also admitting THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Your fantasy scenario will never happen.
 
I wasn't so much comparing situations as comparing personal experiences. apdst was saying that women were crybabies because he'd been around a few that were.

God I wish you could get him on that boat, and I could watch. :lol:
 
No, the standards would not be reduced.

One standard. Let the women try. If any of them can do it, let those women in.

What's so hard about that?

Please point out one case where this has happened, just one? I have pointed out a few where it has not. So this should be easy, right? :2wave:
 
Yea after 12 years in the Army. What the hell do I know?

After posting ACTUAL EVIDENCE to the contrary. What the hell do I know?

After years on the police department watching the female qualifications dropped to allow more of them because of pressure from the mayors office. What the hell do I know?

So? Don't cave to the pressure. Duh.

What part of "this is not going to happen" are you not AGAIN understanding?

Yeah, there's always someone around to say that.

No it's not discrimination. I am not advocating keeping females out of anything. Have you actually read anything I posted? I am advocating they be held to the same requirements as men, but I am also admitting THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.

So you think women should be allowed in the service?

Sorry, I must have mixed you up with someone else on this thread.

Your fantasy scenario will never happen.

Yeah, right, it's a big fantasy scenario.
 
So, how many combat patrols, humping rucks, weapons, ammo and water does that flight crew go on? Aren't they supposed to get a certain amount of sleep in a 24 hour period? Is it only 4 hours, like in an infantry unit?

Not many.

Aircrews are supposed to given the opportunity to get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep before a flight, and cannot drink alcohol within the 12 hours prior to take-off.
 
Yet there are plenty of females pulling out there doing just fine, for example Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester of the 617th Military Police Company, a National Guard unit out of Richmond, Ky:

"Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester fought her way through an enemy ambush south of Baghdad, killing three insurgents with her M-4 rifle to save fellow soldiers' lives -- and yesterday became the first woman since World War II to win the Silver Star medal for valor in combat."
Soldier Earns Silver Star for Her Role in Defeating Ambush - washingtonpost.com

Yes and she got to that point by the reduced standards for females. So what?
 
Please point out one case where this has happened, just one? I have pointed out a few where it has not. So this should be easy, right? :2wave:

It doesn't matter whether it has happened yet. If there is a woman out there who can do it, she should get the chance to prove she can.
 
Yes and she got to that point by the reduced standards for females. So what?

Apparently the standards for men weren't much of a measure of what it takes to be a soldier, that's what. Maybe they should be reduced for everyone.
 
Apparently the standards for men weren't much of a measure of what it takes to be a soldier, that's what. Maybe they should be reduced for everyone.

OK you are going on ignore, your statements are just to stupid for words.
 
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It doesn't matter whether it has happened yet. If there is a woman out there who can do it, she should get the chance to prove she can.

In other words you can't.

Go figure.
 
Yes and she got to that point by the reduced standards for females. So what?

By whatever standards she got in on in 2001, she seems to be perfectly capable of doing what needs to be done:

"...After insurgents hit the convoy with a barrage of fire from machine guns, AK-47 assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, Hester "maneuvered her team through the kill zone into a flanking position where she assaulted a trench line with grenades and M203 rounds," according to the Army citation accompanying the Silver Star.

"She then cleared two trenches with her squad leader where she engaged and eliminated three AIF [anti-Iraqi forces] with her M4 rifle. Her actions saved the lives of numerous convoy members," the citation stated.

Hester, a varsity softball and basketball player in high school, joined the Army in 2001 and was assigned to the Kentucky National Guard's 617th Military Police Company, based in Richmond, Ky..."
 
By whatever standards she got in on in 2001, she seems to be perfectly capable of doing what needs to be done:

"...After insurgents hit the convoy with a barrage of fire from machine guns, AK-47 assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, Hester "maneuvered her team through the kill zone into a flanking position where she assaulted a trench line with grenades and M203 rounds," according to the Army citation accompanying the Silver Star.

"She then cleared two trenches with her squad leader where she engaged and eliminated three AIF [anti-Iraqi forces] with her M4 rifle. Her actions saved the lives of numerous convoy members," the citation stated.

Hester, a varsity softball and basketball player in high school, joined the Army in 2001 and was assigned to the Kentucky National Guard's 617th Military Police Company, based in Richmond, Ky..."

Again so what? This was 1 woman, just 1. Females make up 11% of the military. Not saying she did not, but I am wary of reports like this during war time. They also trump up reports from males as well.

I also have a feeling this is trumped up crap like Jessica Lynch. The Army has a habit of doing that.

This does not say much.
 
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Again so what? This was 1 woman, just 1. Females make up 11% of the military.

Not all men distinguish themselves either.

You sure are going to great lengths to deny the facts. Some women can serve and serve well - better than some men. Get over it.

I also have a feeling this is trumped up crap like Jessica Lynch. The Army has a habit of doing that.

Wow. I dare you to say that to her face. Tell her she doesn't deserve her medals.
 
This has turned into a really big pissing contest.....where, BTW, men have an advantage....:lol:
 
Not all men distinguish themselves either.

So what?

You sure are going to great lengths to deny the facts. Some women can serve and serve well - better than some men. Get over it.

This coming from the guy who wants all the requirements reduced across the board. :lol:

Wow. I dare you to say that to her face. Tell her she doesn't deserve her medals.

I don't have to, she already knows...

"Much of the Jessica Lynch story is true. The soldiers did fall into an ambush and 11 of Lynch's comrades died. But that she "continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds," that she was later stabbed or that she killed several Iraqis during the battle (The Washington Post, April 4)? This is all very dramatic, but unfounded and false. Dr. Harith al-Houssona, who saved Lynch's life while at al-Nasiriyah General Hospital, concluded: "There was no [sign of] shooting, no bullet inside her body, no stab wound-only road traffic accident." This was later confirmed by U.S. Col. David Rubenstein at Landstuhl Hospital in Germany." - Jessica Lynch story
 
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