• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Texas man flies plane into IRS building

Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

I would hesitate to call this (or the fort hood shootings) terrorism because, as far as I can tell, there was no greater political agenda designed to get the general population to stop or start doing something or change policy.

I think in both cases, some unbalanced person got pissed off and decided to take matters in his own hands. Using this criteria, I don't believe the Dr. Tiller murder was terrorism either, again, it was just a crazy dude.

We really should stop overusing this term before it loses all meaning.

... Ft. Hood was a terrorist attack by a Muslim Extremist. Only the willfully blind say otherwise.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

And if this guy was making a political statement with the intention of it being through damage and mass murder and was just an idiot that didn't realize that a small plane wasn't going to do anything on the scale of 9/11, would it be terrorism or not?

Does one have to not be an idiot in the method one goes about attempting to do damage for one to be able to be termed a terrorist? ;)

To be fair, the master plot that was 9/11 boils down to "Hey lets stab the pilots and take over the plane." Success is not a measure of intelligence :)
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

The difference though is that suicide bombers are part of a greater network with well established political goals. I doubt this guy believed he was going to change society in any way.

I never said this was terrorism, did I? I am merely pointing out his mental state. I doubt if he was part of any organized terrorist network.

If there was a worthy target of domestic terrorism, I'd say the IRS as a target that would gain a lot of sympathy from the average American. :lol: ;)
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

I never said this was terrorism, did I? I am merely pointing out his mental state. I doubt if he was part of any organized terrorist network.

If there was a worthy target of domestic terrorism, I'd say the IRS as a target that would gain a lot of sympathy from the average American. :lol: ;)

And the banks... :cool:
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

... Ft. Hood was a terrorist attack by a Muslim Extremist. Only the willfully blind say otherwise.

Shooting enemy soldiers is not terrorism.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

"Global Warming Deniers"

"Fat Cats on Walstreet"

"Rich people"

"Neocons"

"Teabaggers"

"Fundamentalists"

yes yes, the left never utilitzes terms or groups of people to segment off a portion of the population for scorn and ridicule in order to give a focus to their constituency and to facilitate political goals.

They're completely innocent of it and we must simply rant about "the Right"

:roll:

None of those groups are the subject of this thread.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Speaking of the F-ing IRS, I need to finish up preparing my packet for my CPA. Dammit, where are those F-ing receipts!
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Shooting enemy soldiers is not terrorism.

So you believe American Soldiers are enemies, enlightenning.

When you wear the SAME UNIFORM as your targets.... it's terrorism.

Nice try buddy.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

... Ft. Hood was a terrorist attack by a Muslim Extremist. Only the willfully blind say otherwise.

Would you please type your response in braille next time? I can't see what you wrote :mrgreen:
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

... Ft. Hood was a terrorist attack by a Muslim Extremist. Only the willfully blind say otherwise.

I am going to go with the dictionary here

ter⋅ror⋅ism
  /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

Yes he was a Muslim extremist, but he was also just plain crazy. He might have had political goals in mind, as probably did the guy with the prop plane, but it takes an agenda to be a terrorist. I see no evidence that the Fort Hood guy thought he was going to change anything that society does.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Good question. Here is a quote from a letter McVeigh wrote to a fellow named Steve Colburn where he was trying to recruit people to his cause.

I think that since he was trying to actively recruit people, he would fall on the terrorism side of the line, but this one is a hard case either way I think.

While I may disagree with you, kudos for giving it actual thought and being consistant.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

So you believe American Soldiers are enemies, enlightenning.

When you wear the SAME UNIFORM as your targets.... it's terrorism.

Nice try buddy.

No, it's espionage or treason.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

I am going to go with the dictionary here

ter⋅ror⋅ism
  /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

Yes he was a Muslim extremist, but he was also just plain crazy. He might have had political goals in mind, as probably did the guy with the prop plane, but it takes an agenda to be a terrorist. I see no evidence that the Fort Hood guy thought he was going to change anything that society does.

Then by your reckoning violent acts of Jihad are not terrorism.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

... Ft. Hood was a terrorist attack by a Muslim Extremist. Only the willfully blind say otherwise.

It was a mass murder. There had been no evidence that it was done for any kind of political message but more evidence pointing to him abhoring the notion of going overseas into the war and being increasingly antagonistic towards his fellow soldiers to the point of snapping. There is no evidence of him being directly connected to any terrorist organization or group, with the closest being that he attended a mosque for a time that did have some terrorists come out of it. It was a mass murder, not truly that different than the shooting at Alabama last week.

Now I expect you to ridiculous ignore all this and call me "blind" because its the type of pathetic debate you tend to put out and the idiotic broadbrush method you have of insulting...all of which I'd give a damn about if I actually cared what you thought of my "vision" about this.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Fox News reports the NTSB says the pilot set his own house ablaze then piloted the plane into the office building which also houses the IRS office.

Dang it, I am waiting for my tax return from the IRS office in Austin. I guess this means Im gonna have to put off purchasing my new pistol for awhile.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

None of those groups are the subject of this thread.

No, however you made politicians attempting to create political enemies through the use of a term into a topic of this thread through your attempt to smear an entire wing of ideology, of which I was responding to showing your hollow complaint to be just that.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

It was a mass murder. There had been no evidence that it was done for any kind of political message but more evidence pointing to him abhoring the notion of going overseas into the war and being increasingly antagonistic towards his fellow soldiers to the point of snapping. There is no evidence of him being directly connected to any terrorist organization or group, with the closest being that he attended a mosque for a time that did have some terrorists come out of it. It was a mass murder, not truly that different than the shooting at Alabama last week.

Now I expect you to ridiculous ignore all this and call me "blind" because its the type of pathetic debate you tend to put out and the idiotic broadbrush method you have of insulting...all of which I'd give a damn about if I actually cared what you thought of my "vision" about this.


Yes, all those emails to Yemen were innocent inquiries into Islamic Scholarship. :roll:
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Then by your reckoning violent acts of Jihad are not terrorism.

Precisely.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Jihadist violence is not inherently terrorism, although there is often a political agenda or goal involved. In those cases, yes, it's terrorism.

Possible suicide note?
Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

(also possible hoax)

edit: Looks like, assuming this is a real letter, the guy tried to cheat on his taxes by setting up a fake church or something and got pissed when the IRS fined and jailed him for it. Then some other stuff about government bailing out the airlines with his tax dollars.
 
Last edited:
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Then by your reckoning violent acts of Jihad are not terrorism.

Not exactly. I think the majority of the acts by many muslim groups are certainly terrorism. There is an established political agenda, there are regular public statements by the organization's leaders, there is active promotion of their ideology, and there is organized violence. All with the purpose of either gaining control and influence.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

And if this guy was making a political statement with the intention of it being through damage and mass murder and was just an idiot that didn't realize that a small plane wasn't going to do anything on the scale of 9/11, would it be terrorism or not?

Does one have to not be an idiot in the method one goes about attempting to do damage for one to be able to be termed a terrorist? ;)

I wasn't talking about this guy, who was just a loon. I was talking about Timothy McVeigh, who you had brought up as an example.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

No, however you made politicians attempting to create political enemies through the use of a term into a topic of this thread through your attempt to smear an entire wing of ideology, of which I was responding to showing your hollow complaint to be just that.

Next time I'm in a thread about rich people, I'll be sure to smear the left for playing the class warfare game.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

That's because you're paranoid.

Seems it was intentional after all. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

Then by your reckoning violent acts of Jihad are not terrorism.

The other poster hit it on the head. All squares are rectangles, not all rectangle are squares.

Violent Jihad can manefest itself through terrorism, but simply doing something illegal because you believe you're on a "jihad" or just happening to be muslim doesn't make it terrorism.

Just like the fact that Tiller's murder was a fundamentalist christian doesn't automatically make the killing terrorism.

IMHO at least if for instance a guy was just indiscriminately shooting people with no seeming motive or indication at all, that to me would be a serial killer even though it'd definitely terrorize the population. This to me would be the case rather he's muslim, jew, christian, agnostic, athiest, whatever. Even if he thought he was "killing the sinners" or the "infidels", if its just an internal thing that to me isn't terrorism.

However...

If a guy was specifically targetting malls, or clinics that give abortions and provide birth control, or welfare offices and all the while is sending out or has left behind indications of a clear political motivation in attempting to send a message through his attacks ("The Wests Materialism is bad" for the mall, trying to scare people away from shopping or "Abortion is a sin" for the clinics and hoping to scare people from going there to get it or "Welfare is theivery" so trying to scare people from going to the welfare office) then to me it'd be shifted to terrorism.

To me terrorism either needs some kind of clear, identifiable, message stated in some way BY the person OR attachment to an over arching terrorist organization (IE someone that randomly shoots up a mall with no indication for why, but later is claimed by a terrorist group demonizing the wests materialism. Or someone that blows up a portion of a wood working facility and is later found to have been a member of ELF unbeknownst to those close to him).
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

It was a mass murder. There had been no evidence that it was done for any kind of political message but more evidence pointing to him abhoring the notion of going overseas into the war and being increasingly antagonistic towards his fellow soldiers to the point of snapping. There is no evidence of him being directly connected to any terrorist organization or group, with the closest being that he attended a mosque for a time that did have some terrorists come out of it. It was a mass murder, not truly that different than the shooting at Alabama last week.

Now I expect you to ridiculous ignore all this and call me "blind" because its the type of pathetic debate you tend to put out and the idiotic broadbrush method you have of insulting...all of which I'd give a damn about if I actually cared what you thought of my "vision" about this.
An unnamed official "with top secret access" told the network 18 e-mails were exchanged between Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan and Anwar al-Awlaki, who encouraged Muslims to kill U.S. troops in Iraq, from Dec. 2008 until June of this year.

Other e-mails, the official said, included discussion of when jihad is considered "appropriate," and if it is acceptable for innocent people to die in suicide attacks.

"Hasan told Awlaki he couldn't wait to join him in the discussions they would having over non-alcoholic wine in the afterlife," ABC quoted the official as saying.

Hasan — with an annual salary around $92,000 — also wrote, "My strength is my financial capabilities," the source said. Investigators have found the Army major donated as much as $30,000 per year to Islamic "charities." American authorities have found several such charities to be conduits to terrorist networks.

A military analyst told ABC: "It sounds like code words ... That he's actually either offering himself up or that he's already crossed that line in his own mind."

A joint terrorism task force overseen by the FBI learned late last year of Hasan's repeated contact with al-Awlaki. The FBI said the task force did not refer early information about Hasan to superiors because it concluded he wasn't linked to terrorism.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates called it disturbing that Hasan has e-mail contact with the radical cleric in Yemen, but stressed that his review is separate from the criminal investigation into Hasan and should not be interpreted as a finger-pointing exercise against Muslims or anyone else.

Investigators have said e-mails between Hasan and the imam did not advocate or threaten violence. After the shootings, al-Awlaki's Web site praised Hasan as a hero.
Hasan E-Mail to Radical Imam: 'I Can't Wait to Join You' in the Afterlife - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

And this is why you and I never get along. You are so determined to be "moderate" and "able to see the truth without being mired in ideology" that you refuse to call this scum bag, a Terrorist, nor his attack a terrorist event.

Call a spade a spade sir.

Are all muslims terrorist? Nope. Not at all. Are all muslims that commit mass murder after emails like the above? YES they are, and to say otherwise is dishonest to the core.
 
Re: Plane crashes into Northwest Austin building (that houses the FBI)

This is an excellent post, much better than your usual ones. My hat is off to you!
 
Back
Top Bottom